Did Jesus turn the water into wine, or grape juice

nj;
you say you give 31 instances where its ok to use wine and we together have given about as many where it is not ok.

What about this one in the same Book of Deuteronomy. Is this a good one too?

Deuteronomy, chapter 29
4": Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

"5": And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot.

"6": Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I am the LORD your God .


Isaiah, chapter 24

"9": They shall not drink wine with a song; strong drink shall be bitter to them that drink it.
"10": The city of confusion is broken down: every house is shut up, that no man may come in.

"11": There is a crying for wine in the streets; all joy is darkened, the mirth of the land is gone.


Isaiah, chapter 5

"11": Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink ; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!

 

Jesus said He came eating and drinking, but did not say He was drinking fermented beverage. He could have been seen drinking anything and been accused.

They accused John the Baptist wrongly in the previous verse. John did not have a devil. Then, they accused Jesus of being a glutton and a winebibber... which again was a false accusation.

Pharisees were just a band of fault finders, looking to accuse Christ of wrongdoing. They knew drinking was wrong according to OT Law, so they tried to make it look like Jesus had broken OT Law.

 

nj;

Don't I have as much right as you to determine what I believe to be the truth of the passages and I don't take them out of context either, at least no more than you do.

Luke 7: 34
34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

You use an untruth to justify your argument for it was untrue that Jesus was these things.

Do you think Jesus was a gluttonous man and a winebibber (a person who regularly drinks alcoholic beverages)?

 

I can say I drink and eat, but that does not mean I drink alcohol.

I do not believe Jesus was saying He drank alcohol. His work was to do the will of the Father. It was not the Father's will for man to partake of that which was created through a decay process.

 

nj;
I will be glad to respond to your John and Jesus issue.

First of all we believe that Jesus used what they called wine but not alcoholic wine. We do not believe he was a winebibber in other words (a person who regularly drinks alcoholic beverages).

 

Here's your first quote. Next, I'll quote the verses you quoted:

Let's see, the wolf dwells with the lamb, the wolf and the lamb feed together... Nope, no lion and lamb lying down together.

But, the way you're making verses say what you want about wine, not really surprising. I see it all the time. In fact, there's a "Lion and Lamb" bookstore here in town.

He was a prophet. He is the high priest. He will be the King of Kings, when he rules in his Kingdom.

He will have a Kingdom. But, that's not the point. The point is that leaven is likened unto the Kingdom. Unless you think the Kingdom of God and sin are equal...

 

DHK well according to God the Lion will not lay down with the lamb, but the wolf will. most people really screw up this verse




Isa 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

 

Hope of Glory;

Again:

Luke, chapter 17
"21": Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.


Luke, chapter 17


"20": And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

"21": Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

John, chapter 18

"36": Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

He already had a Kingdom at that time.

 

wine in John 2 is the Greek word 'oinos'. It means unfermented wine in this text. We know this because of many factors. If it was an alcoholic wine that was served at the wedding feasts, the guests would have already been on their way to drunkenness. They had already drank all the wine the governor had provided. Jesus would have been adding to drunkenness by producing fermented wine.

Also, alcohol deadens taste buds. These had drank all the wine that was there, and yet the governor had the wherewithal to recognize that the wine Christ produced was 'the best'. If they had been drinking alcoholic wine, he would not have been able to tell that it was the best.

 

RJPRINCE i'm not sure it is worth argueing with legalist, they have to DEFEND their view by twisting scripture. it is what they have been taught. it's called seperation, legalist cannot be conformed to the world in any shape, form or manner.

HOG just saw your posting correcting DHK on the Lion and Lamb thing glad to know others know the right scripture verse. i was still on page 13 when i read DHK post and answered it.

 

nj;

Well we are half way there.

 

Frenchy;

I will just paste it and no twisting at all, I promise.

Deuteronomy, chapter 29
4": Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

"5": And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot.

"6": Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I am the LORD your God .

 

rjprince if this article doesn't prove wine is ok and to drink in moderation is ok they will never listen they can't exactly explain it away.

there are several neutral, almost casual references to alcoholic beverages. Genesis 14:18 refers to Melchizedek, a type of Christ, as offering wine to Abram; Nehemiah 2:1 refers to the king drinking wine (Nehemiah was required to taste it (wine) first to make sure it was not poisoned); Esther 5:6; 7:1-2 speaks of wine that Esther (the godly Jewess) drank with the king; Job 1:13 refers to righteous Job’s family drinking wine; Daniel 10:3 speaks of drinking wine as a blessing after a time of fasting. Some of Jesus’ parables are about wine, wineskins, vineyards (cf. Matt 9:17; 21:33; even John 15 speaks of God the Father as the vinedresser!). Paul tells Timothy to drink some wine for his stomach’s sake and not just water (1 Tim 5:23). The same Greek and Hebrew terms that were used to speak of the abuses of wine are used in these passages. One cannot argue, therefore, that alcoholic beverages are in themselves proscribed, while grape juice is permitted. The lexical data cannot be so twisted.

There are, as well, positive statements about alcoholic beverages: Deut 14:26 implies that it is a good thing to drink wine and strong drink to the Lord: “And you may spend the money for whatever your heart desires, for oxen, or sheep, or wine, or strong drink, or whatever your heart desires; and there you shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household” (NASB). Psalm 4:7 compares joy in the Lord to the abundance of wine; Psalm 104:14-15 credits God as the creator of wine that “makes a man’s heart glad” (cf. also Hos 2:8); honoring the Lord with one’s wealth is rewarded with the blessings of abundant stores of wine (Prov 3:10); love is compared to wine repeatedly in the Song of Songs, as though good wine were similarly sweet (1:2, 4; 4:10; 7:9). The Lord prepares a banquet with “well-aged wines... and fine, well-aged wines” for his people (Isa 25:6) [obviously this cannot be grape juice, for aging does nothing but ferment it!].

The lack of wine is viewed as a judgment from God (Jer 48:33; Lam 2:12; Hos 2:9; Joel 1:10; Hag 2:16); and, conversely, its provision is viewed as a blessing from the Lord (cf. Gen 27:28; Deut 7:13; 11:14; Joel 2:19, 24; 3:18; Amos 9:13-14). Cf. also Isa 55:1; Jer 31:12; Zech 9:17.

Indeed, there was even the Passover tradition that went beyond the biblical teaching: by the time of the first century, every adult was obliged to have four glasses of wine during the Passover celebration. Jesus and his disciples did this in the Last Supper.6 The fact that the wine of the Passover was a symbol the Lord used for his blood and for the new covenant implicitly shows that our Lord’s view of wine was quite different from that of many modern Christians.

What is truly remarkable here are the many positive statements made about wine and alcoholic beverages in the Bible.7 Wine is so often connected with the blessings of God that we are hard-pressed to figure out why so many modern Christians view drink as the worst of all evils. Why, if one didn’t know better, he might think that God actually wanted us to enjoy life! Unfortunately, the only Bible most of our pagan friends will read is the one written on our lives and spoken from our lips. The Bible they know is a book of ‘Thou shalt nots,’ and the God they know is a cosmic killjoy.

I think the best balance on this issue can be see in Luke 7:33-34: John the Baptist abstained from drinking wine; Jesus did not abstain [indeed, people called him a drunkard! Although certainly not true, it would be difficult for this charge to have been made had Jesus only drunk grape juice]. Both respected one another and both recognized that their individual lifestyles were not universal principles. One man may choose not to drink; another may choose to drink. We ought not condemn another servant of the Lord for his choice.

As well, Romans 14 is a key passage for gleaning principles about how we ought to conduct ourselves in relation to one another on this issue: weaker brothers ought not to judge those whose freedom in Christ allows them to enjoy alcoholic beverages; stronger brothers ought not to disdain weaker brothers for their stance. Whether we drink or not, let us do all things to the glory of God.

http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=988

 

whoops double post to many posting on this thread

 

nj;

You will have to take it up with Webster.