Loving People Straight to Hell

Where was the burger from?

It is certainly an issue. On the whole knowledge of God, the Bible and salvation is virtually nil outside of churches. All many lost people know is what you mentioned - the God of love.

Though we can not swing the other way with an entirely hell fire and brimstone angry God message. It has to be a balance between the love and grace of God and the holiness and judgment of God.

 

The realization that we are sinners and that our sin has separated us from a Holy God is required before we are ready for salvation. This obviously is the work of the Holy Spirit and is part of the message that the Church must preach. So much of what is proclaimed today is more centered around our "self esteem" than our recognition that there is nothing in ourselves to esteem and that the only hope for our unholy condition is the covering of the blood of Jesus. So, I think your assessment is pretty much on target.

 

I ran across this quote from D. L. Moody:

It is the Law which cuts off all avenues of escape except through the Lord Jesus.

 

Now, see we were doing so good till this law thing got in here.

I have the greatest respect for the life and ministry of D.L. Moody, but where does he or anyone else get the idea that we should preach the Law to Gentiles?

Exodus clearly declares that the Law was for the Jews, not the Gentiles. Paul says that the Law was given to the Jews. NO WHERE IN THE PREACHING OF THE APOSTLES CAN YOU FIND WHERE THE LAW IS PREACHED AS A BASIS FOR JUDGEMENT OF GENTILES! It is not there. We are sinners and will be judged according to our sins and our works, unless we have trusted in the Lord Jesus Christ. BUT, the masses of unbelievers will be judged according to words, works, and deeds --- not according to "the Law".

Maybe this post is an overreaction, but it is wrong to sugget that Gentiles are bound to keep the Law. It is just this kind of imprecision that leads some to declare that NT Believers must observe the Sabbath...

Other than that, I AGREE with the discussion here!!!

 

The point is not that Gentiles are "bound to keep the law". Paul said that the law is our "school master" He said that he did not know coveting until the law said "Thou shalt not covet". So, the law is necessary to reveal our sinful condition.

 

Galatians brings out that the Law was used as a schoolmaster for the nation of Israel. Why can't it be used in that sense by Gentiles?

Paul also argued comprehensively that without the law there is no knowledge of sin. We need the law, not in order to keep it, but to see how far short of the mark we fall.

You say we will be judged according to our sins... without the law how do you define sin?

 

Paul was a Jew. Of course he knew sin by the Law. The Gentiles on the other hand have conscience, not law. The fact that this conscience lines up with some of the elements of the law and in fact 9 of the 10, in no way makes Gentiles bound to keep the law.

Lawbreaking is not the same as sin. The disciples preached the resurrection in defiance of the law of the Sanhedrin. Was this sin. Sin is an offence against the holiness of God.

Yes the law was schoolmaster (pedagog) to bring Israel to Christ, but after Christ no more schoolmaster.

 

I am not saying Gentiles have to keep the law, and I certainly do not keep the Sabbath, rather the first day of the week.

However, if the law is not the guide as to man's behavior then what is?

All sinners, Jew and Gentile, will be judged according to the Word of God... which if not the law then at the very least contains the law.

The conscience is not a substitute for the law, though it certainly does compliment it. And in the laws absence the conscience does have power. But the conscience can be seared and tempered by enviroment whereas the law is an absolute.

 

Contra the words of Jesus who said his followers would be marked by their love.

 

</font>[/QUOTE]I have to disagree that the Law has no effect in the Gentiles life. We are grafted in to the vine once we accept Christ. So in a sense we are now a part of the Jewish faith and heritage. I am not saying we become Jewish, just that now we have the same Heavenly Father that chose the Jewish people and gave them the Law in the first place. Also we are now a part of the covenant that God made with Abraham as to be the Father of many nations and his seed would be multiplied. We are now a portion of that seed and its heritage.

 

Contra the words of Jesus who said his followers would be marked by their love. </font>[/QUOTE]Christ also said He came not to send peace, but a sword...

 

BTW, good choice with Burger King, they do produce a superior burger!

 

Is't breaking the law a sin? </font>[/QUOTE]Sometimes it is and sometims it isn't.

Ask the three friends of Daniel.

 

I think we are confining ourselves to God's Law. Law with a capital "L".

Waremock, do you mean how do you convince your friends that evangelism must proclaim love and judgment?

If so, Jude 22-23 help me:

Jud 1:22-23 And of some have compassion, making a difference: (23) And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Some turn to the Lord when they realise His love, others when they realise His wrath. I believe love and wrath will be present in the salvation of both, but the focus on one or the other will depend on the individual.

 

Obey the Law: YES!!!
Trust the Law for Salvation: NO!!!

The Holy Spirit, through Paul, said that we are not under Law but under grace. Common sense, which I believe is God given, SHOULD tell you that you shouldn't murder or steal or curse God or lie. The effect that the law has on my life is the realization that even if I defy impossibility and follow the Law to a t, I still won't go to heaven. The law is a reminder that we are unable to live to God's perfect standards. Only through Christ can we be able to live the way God wants us to. Take it like this, the Gospel is the answer to the Law.