Can't we all just get along...

I think that the debaters are often firmly set in their beliefs, but others may observe debates and be Bereans themselves.

Originally posted by Filmproducer:
Yes, Christ is the only one who can actually save; however, what happens if you don't share the gospel with someone who is "predestined", and neither does anyone else?

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I am amused at times (no disrespect) when people go if-else and yes-but, like when people say Christ is Savior buuutttt....
Let me put it this way. Either Christ is Savior and Him alone or He is not. Either His finished work and His blood suffices for the salvation of His people or they do not.
Either He saved me before I knew Him or He did not. Either He loved me before I loved Him or He did not.
Either He was alone at Calvary, or He was not.
Either He has people in every age and nation, or He does not, and that means He had people scattered all over the earth even before He called Abraham and created Israel, or He only began His election when He began talking to and manifesting Himself to certain people, and therefore the Bible lied when it said that the Lamb's Book of Life was filled with names from the foundation of the world.

I would think that even Calvinists should follow the Great Commission to be on the safe side.

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Well, like I have always maintained, I am Primitive Baptist, not Calvinist. I do not believe that God uses means to save His people for Heaven, like the Bible, the gospel or the gospel preacher. Calvinists do.
I do not have to be 'on the safe side', because I am on the safe side. The blood of the Lamb is my surety, and the integrity of my God is my trust.
As for the church being tasked to save souls via the "Great Commission", I do not believe that. The church's task is to edify the saints, and honor God in their midst.

[/QB]
If Christ expects us to spread the gospel, but we don't because we are under the impression that the saved are predestined anyway, how would/could we explain our actions on judgement day? When my son is being disciplined and tries to justify his actions by saying, "but I thought...", it doesn't make him any less wrong. [/QB]

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The instruction is to preach the gospel, and this instruction was not given to the church but to the apostles, people who were personally chosen by the Lord Jesus Christ, and who walked and slept and ate and received personal teaching from Him.

To the church members and to those who name the name of Christ the call is to repent, be baptized, and live life worthy of the Name which one calls on, to gather together at the appointed and agreed on times, to edify one another, to live peaceably among the heathen, to obey the laws of the land they live in, to give honor to those to whom honor is due, and so on.

I realize there is one among you who will probably break every makiwara he can get his shuto onto, but, I maintain nevertheless that the Great Commission in which the lowly, obedient, meek, once drunkard now holy servant of the living God goes forth into heathen lands to 'win souls' and help the Savior save people is a man made doctrine, totally unscriptural (which is not to say it is sinfully heretic but simply that it cannot be proven by Scripture), like Sunday School, the title Reverend given to pastors, choirs and choir practice, and New Testament tithing for non-agricultural New Testament economies.

There.

Are we getting along fine ?

1 Corinthians 1:21
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Then who are the apostles today?

Originally posted by Marcia:
I don't see disagreement or healthy debate as not getting along. Not getting along would be personal attacks, and those do happen here. But that should not keep us from discussions and healthy disagreements.

If you don't like disagreements, don't come to a debate thread!

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I agree completely, Marcia.

What needs to differentiated here, and seldom is on the BB, is the difference between argument and debate. In my view, argument is when you and I are talking to each other but neither of us is listening. Debate is when we are listening to each other and responding to the points made, allowing ourselves to be convinced by the Scripture when we are wrong. There is plenty of both on the BB.

Maybe we should add a third category here: Internet debate, which is often a cross between argument and real debate, vast ignorance and great scholardship!

At any rate, it is very frustrating to make what one feels is a dynamite point, backed by Scripture and/or a theological or historical scholar, and have it completely ignored by someone who has been interacting until then. And to get a little humility in here, of course I am sure I've ignored some solid points by worthy opponents, too.

Originally posted by pinoybaptist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by mima:
pinoybaptist: PROVERBS 11:30 has a phrase which says," and he that winneth souls is wise". Do you believe that this phrase refers to lord Jesus Christ and Him alone, or could this be referring to ordinary people? What is your take on this?

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Mima:

Winning souls unto God for eternity is Christ's prerogative and His alone. Not any of us can add or take to what He has already done.
In that sense I do not believe in soul winning, because I do not believe preaching the gospel results in one's snatching any soul from the fires of God's wrath, neither does responding to the preaching do that.

I believe the gospel is to be preached as a declaration of a finished work of salvation already possessed by the child of God and brought to light by the gospel.

On the other hand, winning souls unto the kingdom, which is, instructing men in righteousness to the glory of God in the church, and winning souls back to the right and narrow way of obedience for that soul's blessing here on earth, in time, is how I view Proverbs 11:30. </font>[/QUOTE]Romans 10:13-

What with the weather clearing, and the festivals beginning, I have just finished getting a 18 foot sailboat ready to take around to festivals and fairs in order to use it as a witnessing tool. My first trip in fact will be to a festival which takes place the 22nd 23rd of this month. I bought the sailboat and trailer and everything just it can be given away free, to the winner of a draw the first August.
Now from what I have read that pinoybaptist and Rubato 1 have written, I have just wasted my money and am soon to waste much of my time. But everything is OK I understand these different positions very well. Sometimes people tell me what you're doing is wrong, you have no business out here at fairs and festivals speaking about Jesus Christ. At which point I always say to them, OK please tell me what you're doing? I have yet to receive any discernible intelligent answer. I have been given a few talkings to, I have been given some cussing, but never a reasonable answer. Also I want to say that I'm really really liked primitive Baptist, because I actually consider myself very Calvinist also.

I don't see any reason why we can't get along! If you, 1. Are a Ind. Fund. Separated Baptist.
2. Don't smoke.
3. Don't drink alcohol.
4. Use the KJV.
5. Drive a black Dodge pick up truck.
6. Love to hunt
If you agree with this list we can get along fine. I'm just kidding you know me. I will bend the rules to get along with anyone.....red truck is ok too.

How lucky can a person be, I was so concerned and worried, but just before the tears came I saw where you accepted RED trucks, old wonderful wonderful wonderful I have a RED truck!!!!!!

Originally posted by Pipedude:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Hope of Glory:
If we have a difference, a healthy debate is a good way to work toward the truth.

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But have you ever seen anyone move toward the truth because of a debate here? </font>[/QUOTE]I've personally changed in some ways.

Whether for better or for worse is debatable.
Actually I think for the better, of course. I've found that I've got a much stronger witness now than before...mostly because it's easier to focus on Christ after leaving a church/set of beliefs that had me focused so much on appearances.

1. I am much more against the use of alcohol than I used to be.

2. I have learned what the term fundamentalist REALLY means, and who it ain't.

3. I despised the doctrines of grace when I first joined.

4. I used to think anyone who read a Bible other than the KJV was probably Satan's little helper in disguise.

5. At one time I would have probably called in an exorcist to remove any CCM from anyplace near my front door. Now I purposely bring it in, and love to sing new songs to the Lord.

There's more, but I'm too tired to post anymore. Goodnight!
I will say that I have changed as the result of reading/debating on this board and a bit on others, but mostly this one.
I've learned what it's like to be treated like I was treating people in the past based on whether or not they wore a certain type of dress, or read a certain bible version, or believed in free will or not. And I don't like it, and feel awful that I ever treated people likewise.

Originally posted by Shiloh:
I don't see any reason why we can't get along! If you, 1. Are a Ind. Fund. Separated Baptist.
2. Don't smoke.
3. Don't drink alcohol.
4. Use the KJV.
5. Drive a black Dodge pick up truck.
6. Love to hunt
If you agree with this list we can get along fine. I'm just kidding you know me. I will bend the rules to get along with anyone.....red truck is ok too.

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Too bad about the whole Dodge thing...
I personally like Hyundai-can't waith till they come out w/a pick-up!

I am in enough trouble already so I say yes yes yes and agaib yes to all the above! I am a good boy that just wants to get along!

J

I would think that even Calvinists should follow the Great Commission to be on the safe side.

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Well, like I have always maintained, I am Primitive Baptist, not Calvinist. I do not believe that God uses means to save His people for Heaven, like the Bible, the gospel or the gospel preacher. Calvinists do.
I do not have to be 'on the safe side', because I am on the safe side. The blood of the Lamb is my surety, and the integrity of my God is my trust.
As for the church being tasked to save souls via the "Great Commission", I do not believe that. The church's task is to edify the saints, and honor God in their midst.

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Yeah, Right. And just how did these "saints" become saints without an evangelist fulfilling the Great Commision?

Originally posted by pinoybaptist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by mima:
pinoybaptist: PROVERBS 11:30 has a phrase which says," and he that winneth souls is wise". Do you believe that this phrase refers to lord Jesus Christ and Him alone, or could this be referring to ordinary people? What is your take on this?

Click to expand...

Mima:

Winning souls unto God for eternity is Christ's prerogative and His alone. Not any of us can add or take to what He has already done.
In that sense I do not believe in soul winning, because I do not believe preaching the gospel results in one's snatching any soul from the fires of God's wrath, neither does responding to the preaching do that.

I believe the gospel is to be preached as a declaration of a finished work of salvation already possessed by the child of God and brought to light by the gospel.

On the other hand, winning souls unto the kingdom, which is, instructing men in righteousness to the glory of God in the church, and winning souls back to the right and narrow way of obedience for that soul's blessing here on earth, in time, is how I view Proverbs 11:30. </font>[/QUOTE]Proverbs 11:30 is in the same context as Daniel 12:3, and refers to bringing the lost to God, not the righteous BACK to God.

Dan 12:3 Those who are wise will shine like the bright expanse of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

Originally posted by Pipedude:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Hope of Glory:
If we have a difference, a healthy debate is a good way to work toward the truth.

Click to expand...

But have you ever seen anyone move toward the truth because of a debate here? </font>[/QUOTE]Depends on who's defining truth!

Personally, I have learned a lot here. Debating has also helped me to evaluate and clarify my own positions. And I can't say how often I go to the Bible in certain debates/discussions here and really read the passage and context!

In fact, I usually open a window to Bible gateway before I open up the BB forum!

2 Corinthians, chapter 7
"6": Nevertheless God, that comforteth those that are cast down, comforted us by the coming of Titus;
"7": And not by his coming only, but by the consolation wherewith he was comforted in you, when he told us your earnest desire, your mourning, your fervent mind toward me; so that I rejoiced the more.
"8": For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season. : for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.
"10": For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death .

Preaching does cause people to be awakened to the condition they are in. If I didn't believe that I would quit today!!

Originally posted by Salamander:
I would think that even Calvinists should follow the Great Commission to be on the safe side.

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</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Well, like I have always maintained, I am Primitive Baptist, not Calvinist. I do not believe that God uses means to save His people for Heaven, like the Bible, the gospel or the gospel preacher. Calvinists do.
I do not have to be 'on the safe side', because I am on the safe side. The blood of the Lamb is my surety, and the integrity of my God is my trust.
As for the church being tasked to save souls via the "Great Commission", I do not believe that. The church's task is to edify the saints, and honor God in their midst.

Click to expand...

Yeah, Right. And just how did these "saints" become saints without an evangelist fulfilling the Great Commision?

</font>[/QUOTE]Oh, I see. So, Christ hang on the cross for nothing and for no one. His was a guessing game, the success of which finally lay on the efforts of an 'evangelist' ?
The Father looked upon His Son on that cross, biting his nails, and hoping that some fiery, hellfire and brimstone, former drunk or thug or drug addict, turned evangelist, would successfully make saints of some people He had no knowledge of ?
And the Spirit hovers around while the former bad boy turned evangelist preaches, and alights on the 'weeping sinner' who surprisingly for the All Knowing God the Holy Spirit, raises his hands to finally in pity for Christ receive Him ?

Why can't we go ahead and discuss our differences and even debate them and STILL GET ALONG?

For the most part we are.

Guess not all though, some have to thow in some pretty rough statements. If no need for the preacher and all were already saved before Christ did hang on the cross then why did He. I think for all who would repent of their sins, believe that Jesus is the Christ and be born again are saved. So now, go ahead and call me a free-will but I really am an Old Regular Baptist.

Originally posted by pinoybaptist:
Oh, I see. So, Christ hang on the cross for nothing and for no one. His was a guessing game, the success of which finally lay on the efforts of an 'evangelist' ?

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No, but if you really wanna play it like that, But I don't advise you go against the command of Christ.

The Father looked upon His Son on that cross, biting his nails, and hoping that some fiery, hellfire and brimstone, former drunk or thug or drug addict, turned evangelist, would successfully make saints of some people He had no knowledge of ?

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I don't think so, but if you wish, But I still believe God sent His Son to save them, not any evangelist. Well, except for The Evangelist/ Christ!

And the Spirit hovers around while the former bad boy turned evangelist preaches, and alights on the 'weeping sinner' who surprisingly for the All Knowing God the Holy Spirit, raises his hands to finally in pity for Christ receive Him ?

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Not exactly, but if you say so, But, I'd rather believe the Bible that tells us that the Spirit indwells the believer at salvation and what the Bible does say about the Holy Ghost being grieved at the disbelief of even the children of God and He "hovers" away in presence.

But then you would have a real problem with Saul of Taursus being pricked in the heart by the PREACHING of Christ then, huh? But, Hey? What's the need for God even being longsuffering and full of mercy since the primitives already have His children elected?

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
For the most part we are.

Guess not all though, some have to thow in some pretty rough statements. If no need for the preacher and all were already saved before Christ did hang on the cross then why did He. I think for all who would repent of their sins, believe that Jesus is the Christ and be born again. So now, go ahead and call me a free-will but I really and Old Regular Baptist.

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I think those usually come from those whose belief system has been exposed for the error.

I've been "threatened" several times by some who have had the system exposed.

I've even had some pretty rough things said to me by a certain moderator, who will go un-named, but he knows who I am exactly calling childish and needs to grow up and get over it! But as long as he acts grown up, we've gotten along just fine.