Calvinism and the God of Second Chances

A fellow Baptist pastor in my area claims to be solidly Calvinist. "God is sovereign!" he claims repeatedly. "God elects in His sovereignty who will go to Heaven and who will suffer in Hell."

(n.b. We don't disagree that God is sovereign. I just don't believe that prohibits Him in His sovereignty from granting His creation free will.)

The same pastor frequently, in sermons, refers to "The God of second chances."

Does anyone else find this an odd contradiction? If a Calvinist claims to believe in total depravity, unconditional election, and irresistable grace, how can that same person see God giving anyone any chances at all ... much less second chances?

Yes, I know I'm throwing a match into the kindling here, but I'm deeply disturbed by this notion that God is not only a tyrant (sending people to Hell for His own good pleasure, without even giving them the ability to believe) but also a liar (Saying to us, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If any man ..." when in the Calvinist view, we have no choice whatsoever).

In fact, I am actually convinced that most Calvinists (note: I said most) are guilty of trying too hard to find some elite secret in their reading of Scripture.

Fact: Numerous passages offer salvation to whoever will believe (pisteuo). Not a single passage of Scripture states outright that this is not true. Not a single passage of Scripture says that "whole world" means "elect." Not a single passage says "elect" means God chooses and that our faith results from His choice.

Oh, yes, I've read the arguments. You have to really massage the Scripture to make it mean what it just simply doesn't say. From the first book of the Bible to the last, God begs people to repent and turn to Him. If, in fact, it's not a matter of our choice, why then would He spend so much time urging us to choose Him?

I believe that my pastor friend knows in the depth of his soul that his Calvinist interpretation doesn't truly match the God of Scripture. That's why -- in perhaps a moment of clarity -- he speaks of "The God of second chances."

 

Gina, I'll be happy to let you make up new rules for the thread some other day. If you can show me a single Scripture that actually says the things listed above, we can move on to your questions. But, mind you, not one of those deep-hidden-meaning things. Something as clearly as 1 Peter 3:9 says that God is not willing that anyone should perish.

 

Wow, a history lesson. Thank you. Naturally, being an ignorant person I didn't know any of that, and it all proves that the Bible doesn't mean what it says.

Sorry ... that's sarcasm. But:

If Calvinism is a misnomer, how did you know what I was writing about? Obviously it's not a misnomer, but simply another name by which the false doctrine is recognized.

Yes, you can trace much of Calvinism's false doctrine back to Augustine who, by the way, is credited with being the founder of the Roman Catholic Church. Augustine also believed that you could not get into heaven without being baptized into the Catholic Church. Are you suggesting that he is the basis of sound theological argument?

Ahhh, all the rest. The favorite arguments of those trained to follow the teachings of Jean Chauvin, the Frenchman who never actually was a Reformist. Show me the scripture, not the arguments of men! Show me one plain, clear verse that says that all of the other verses don't mean what they say.

 

Since the basis of your questions is rooted in doubting your friend's integrity, I strongly encourage you to talk to him personally about your questions. Ask him to clarify his "second chances" quote. Ask him if he truly believes X and why he believes it. Debate forums can only do so much. Heart-to-heart conversations with real live friends is still the best avenue of communication, esp. when there is suspicion of a friend's integrity at hand.

Just one comment to your post, though - the holder of the Doctrines of Grace is not the only one that has to explain certain difficult passages; all people come to a place where certain verses appear to contradict their system (and yes, everyone has a system - i.e., a way of interpreting the Bible) that they need to explain or clarify. I see non-Calvinists do this all the time with Romans 9 and Eph. 1-2, for instance. We're in the same boat on this one, brother. </font>[/QUOTE]That is a kind and polite answer, but not, I believe, an intellectually honest one.

First, you presume that I haven't talked to my brother about his false doctrine. Don't presume that.

Second, if I understand you, you imply either that God doesn't need to explain Himself or that true believers don't need to explain why they believe what they do (sorry, but I sort of got lost in the subordinate clauses ... it's early). While I would agree with the former, He does it anyway; that's the whole point of providing His word in the form of Scripture (2 Timothy 3:16).

As to the latter, the best way to cover a false doctrine is to be unwilling to give it light of day.

Calvinists will fall back (like the post above) on Ephesians 2, etc., and say that believing equals works and therefore can't be part of the equation. But in all of the many, many passages that talk about repentence, faith, and believing, not a single one of them says that God must first regenerate the person before they can believe. Not one.

So is God a liar? When He tells us that He sent His Son into the world for "whomsoever believes," when he said, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If any man answer ... " when he said that He "is not willing that any man should perish"? All lies?

You see, you have to massage the clear, plain language of Scripture to get this strange idea of a loving God who chooses people to go to Hell "for His own good pleasure."

 

Andy, thanks for your replies. May I suggest that, if you're tired of discussing the matter you simply ignore it? The truth is, we never discuss anything here that hasn't been discussed in one way or another before, or that couldn't be discussed in another place.

Thanks for correcting me on your point. Like I said, it's early and I did misread you.

Unfortunately, it still seems to me that what you're saying ends up being that Scripture means different things to different people. No doubt true, but that doesn't mean there's not a correct meaning, nor that we shouldn't look for that meaning. Otherwise, cults are fine, too.

For example, in Bill Brown's response, above, he uses Ephesians 2 and Ezekiel 36:26 to support his argument.

Somehow, despite the numerous passages that tell us that we must believe to be saved, Calvinists take the view that believing equals works and therefore can't be the right answer. When confronted with all of these other verses, Calvinists tell us they just don't mean what they say. Words don't mean what they mean in every other passage of Scripture. "World" means "elect." "Whosoever believes" means "whosoever God chooses to regenerate and then believes ..."

Ezekiel 36:26, a Calvinist favorite, is a prophesy written to Israel. There was a view at one time, before the fulfillment of Ezekiel 37, that this must apply to a "new Israel" (i.e, the church); however, the plain language of the Scripture tells us differently. Unless we're going to apply all of Ezekiel 36-39 to the church as a whole, it's wrong to cherry-pick a verse out of the middle and say this explains God's plan for all believers.

Once again: Throughout Scripture, God begs us to believe and repent. Why would He do that, if we have no choice in the matter?

So, once again, please show me a single passage of Scripture that says that no man can believe in God without first being elected and regenerated by Him.

Blessings.

 

Naturally, I meant 2 Peter ... these fingers refuse to cooperate in the morning.

 

Yes, I have entertained the idea. Then dismissed it. If they're already believers, why is God patiently waiting for them to become believers? And if He's waiting for the nonbelievers to become believers, hasn't He already, according to Master Calvin, predestined them?

Sorry, it just doesn't work. You can't keep flipping back and forth.

 

I'm asking for a simple thing. Same thing I ask of all Calvinists. Don't cherry-pick a verse out of context, just show me one clear passage that says a man must be regenerated by God before he can believe.

That's the doctrine of Calvinism in a nutshell, so there must be at least one passage of Scripture that actually says it.

Romans 8:29? Calvinists skip right over the "for whom He foreknew" or else they say that foreknowledge is the same as predestination. If it's the same thing, then the verse says, "For whom He predestined, He also predestined." Doesn't work. The only other view must be that he predestined them because He foreknew them. God is outside of His creation. Time is a physical dimension of creation, by which God is not constrained. Therefore, quite simply, He knows who will come to Him and He predistines them accordingly. To what? Salvation? No, to the works for which they are chosen (Ephesians 2:10).

This comports with all other Scripture and doesn't require us to redefine words like "world" and "whosoever." It also comports with Matthew 7:23 ("I never knew you.") Note that Christ doesn't say, "I never chose you," or "I never elected you," or "I never predestined you." These were people who never chose to be in a relationship with Him, thus He never knew them.

Romans 9? Yes, God gets to choose. It's His sovereign right. And He has given us the rules by which He promises in the covenant of Christ's blood (the "New Testament") to do just that. No mystery here, and no contradiction. He spelled out His plan in many places, including John 3:16-17.

You point it out yourself ... Romans 9. God hardened Pharaoh's heart. Look at it! Does it say He chose not to regenerate Pharaoh? Absolutely not! If the Calvinist doctrine is right, then God wouldn't have to "harden" anyone's heart because they would all be damned unless He elected them.

God knew Pharaoh's heart from eternity past. Still, He gave Pharaoh free will. But because He knew his heart, God chose the moment when it would be "hardened" in order to cause His plan for Moses to come about.

No contradiction. No mystery. No verses taken out of context. And it blends perfectly with all other Scripture without having to change the meanings of words.

Once again, everyone, God begs us throughout Scripture to believe, repent, and turn to Him. Why does He beg us to do this if it's not possible for us to choose?

One clear, simple, straightforward Scripture that says that no man can believe until He is first elected and regenerated by God, and I will concede all and join the Calvinist ranks.

 

Yes, I have entertained the idea. Then dismissed it. If they're already believers, why is God patiently waiting for them to become believers? And if He's waiting for the nonbelievers to become believers, hasn't He already, according to Master Calvin, predestined them?

Sorry, it just doesn't work. You can't keep flipping back and forth. </font>[/QUOTE]II Peter 3 is in the context of the Second Coming of Christ. Peter is addressing objections by people who say He is not coming again. If you interpet II Peter 3:9 to include all people, then Jesus would never come again, unless you believe at some point every individual on Earth will be saved. When Jesus comes again, there will undoubtedly be unbelievers on Earth. But He's not willing that any should perish, so why would He come again knowing that some are not saved? </font>[/QUOTE]Nothing in 2 Peter 3:9 says He won't come until everyone believes. It merely says He is patient, not willing that anyone should perish.

Now, if He has already predestined who is saved, what does he have to be patient about? And if He isn't willing that anyone should perish, why would He elect who does and who doesn't?

The verse only makes complete contextual sense if you read it with an understanding that individuals have choices. Choice does not equal works. God's grace is sufficient, but it applies only to those who believe (Jn 3:16).

 

A new thought. I'm surprised I haven't seen someone quote Jn 6:65 yet. It's a good one, and all by itself it would be enough to send non-Calvinists into turmoil.

But read on to verses 70 and 71. Verse 65 is the clearest verse in all of Scripture that we can't come to Christ unless the Father provides the way. Yet just a few verses later, Jesus tells us He chose the Twelve and yet one is "a devil."

It turns verse 65 upside down. God provided the way. Judas rejected it. Just as God used Pharaoh's rejection to get Moses moving (Romans 9), He used Judas' rejection to cause His plan to happen concerning the Messiah.

Once again, it comes back to that word "believe." The Greek is pisteuo which means (in the context of Jn 3:16, for example) to place complete trust and faith in Him.

Don't confuse God's will with His plan, and don't always trust the English translations concerning these words. We can go against God's will. Adam did. But we can never go against God's plan. We'll never catch Him by surprise. He knows every choice we will make, and it will all work according to His plan.

Blessings!

[ April 19, 2006, 03:45 PM: Message edited by: Wildfire ]

 

Dustin, you argue against your own point.

God does not will that anyone should perish, but they do anyway. Right? That means that people can go against God's will. Adam did. God told Him what to do, but He did the opposite. Jonah did. David did. Some believers gossip or think harsh or lustful thoughts -- sin -- which is against God's will, yet they are redeemed by Christ's blood. Some people reject God completely, which is against His will. When they do, they perish. That's not God's will, but they do it anyway.

So, you see, you're right. 2 Peter 3:9 means exactly what it says. God is not willing that any man should perish. But (Jn 3:16) only those who believe on the Son will have everlasting life.

These two verses can't contradict each other. John 3:16 doesn't say, "for whomsover is elected and regenerated will therefore believe and have eternal life." And 2 Peter 3:9 doesn't say, "God isn't willing that any man should perish except the ones He picks."

The two verses comport perfectly exactly as they are written.