Forgiveness/ Unforgiveness

This is a falacious argument. How can God chastise us in this life for sin if Jesus already paid the penalty for it? If Jesus paying for a sin doesn't bar God from chastising us in this life, what bars Him from chastising us in the next?

The judgment that a Christian faces at the judgment seat of Christ (calling it a bema doesn't change anything) is spelled out quite succinctly.

2 Corinthians 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

If you do good, you will recieve for it, if you do bad you will recieve for it. There are rewards for iniquity.

 

Friends,

Interesting discussion. I like the remarks of
MRCoon:
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If we confess our sins he will forgive us and separate (forget) our sin so as not to interfere with our father-child relationship.
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I would modify this statement because it is not
necessary to "confess" our sins to maintain our
"relationship" ... but it is necessary to keep
our "fellowship" with the Father.

Because of cases like Ananias and Sapphira and
the warning in Rev.2:22-23 that God will cast some into great tribulation and "kill" them if
they do not repent of adultery, I think the
warning of Matt.6:14 is another instance of the
loss of blessing in a Believer's life.

In other words, the "if" in Matt.6:14 is not as critical as that of Heb.6:4-6 where the writer
indicates a condition that is assumed and really
"contrary to fact" since forgiveness would
require Christ to die again!

This text in Matthew does not even consider the
necessity of Christ to die "again" since the one who sins may be disciplined, even to the point of death.

IOW, Jesus does not indicate that the need for
"confession" equals a "condition" for keeping
one's salvation. Eternal life depends entirely on God ... from start to finish.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

drfuss,

Scripture does not contradict itself.
Neither you nor I can "justify" the loss
of one's salvation based on whether he
"forgives" another Believer.

Jesus could have meant what Hebrews
suggests, i.e., that true Believers do
not fail to "forgive one another" ...
just as those who have truly been saved
cannot "crucify Christ again".

I am suggesting that the matter of our
"fellowship" is under scrutiny; not the
matter of our "relationship". God shows
He will not even countenance the sins
that hinder our "fellowship" with Him.

And that is the reason for the "purging"
that is coming in the great tribulation.
Believers must be "worthy of Christ"
when He comes for His Bride!! I Thess.3:13
is not a matter of being "worthy in Him"
but of being "worthy OF Him", i.e., or He
will "cast some into great tribulation and
kill them". Rev.2:22-23.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

Forgiveness/Unforgiveness

drfuss,

Quote:
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I believe a Christian who will not forgive another will be under such conviction until he comes to the place where he must make a choice to either forgive or stop trusting Jesus as savior. If he continues to refuse to forgive, he has stopped trusting Jesus. If he chooses to stop trusting Jesus as savior, he forfeits his salvation.
______________________________________________________________

I see two assumptions here that contradict the tenor of Scripture's overall teaching.

One, it is an assumption to argue that a Christian will "refuse to forgive". God will
discipline such a one so that he does forgive or the truth that Believers have died to the control of the sinful nature is false. We have been set free from its dominion.

Two, it is impossible for a Believer to stop trusting Jesus. The burden for my friend
here is disprove that Jesus meant what He said when He said that He gives unto
us eternal life and we shall never perish. Jesus will NOT lose one of those God has
chosen from the foundation of the world.

I suggest you are building a doctrine on a verse that does not say a Christian might
stop trusting in Jesus. That is not just theoretical; it utterly contradicts the intent of God's promises of an eternal inheritance for every one whom the Father has given
to Jesus. John 6:39.

There is no such thing as a "forfeiture of one's salvation". Even the thought is
repugnant to the exaltation of God and the honor due His name!! Jesus is doing
that same thing that Heb.6:4-6 does, i.e., presenting a case contrary to fact in
order to emphasize the requirement of "forgiving one another". :thumbs:

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

Forgiveness/Unforgiveness

drfuss,

Scripture often makes statements that seem "contrary to fact" in order to make a
point "stand out" in stark relief.

When Jesus stated that He had lost "none whom the Father had given Him, except the son of perdition", we do not think He meant that Judas was once "one of His own". In fact, Jesus stated it were better if Judas had "never been born".

Any seemingly contradictory statement must be interpreted in the light of overall
Scripture. The promise of eternal life for every believer, irrespective of whether
we think one might refuse to forgive, must be understood as entirely dependent
upon God; not upon whether we can "take ourselves out of the position of
eternal life". We do not have the authority or power to remove ourselves from
the state of salvation.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

If a person who is a professing Christian refuses to forgive another for a prolonged period of time, then I would question whether they are really a true believer. The question on God's chastising the believer was brought up earlier in this thread and this is a prime example of where God would chastise the believer to bring them to repentence and forgiving the other person.

The command is to forgive. The reason is that we can't expect to receive forgiveness from God and shun our responsibility to show Christ's nature to the world. God forgives first and formost, but we have a responsibility to become more and more Christlike in our walk. This is the working of the Spirit in us. This is the fruit of the Spirit within us. It is inconsistent to believe that a true believer, knowing how much they have been forgiven (actually it is probably more than we can even understand in this world), could possibly not forgive someone who wronged them far less than they have wronged God. This should be grounds for church discipline, but that is another thread, I suppose.

Obviously in the short term we can all go through a period of not forgiving someone, but if God is not dealing with you on that, then get on your knees and do some deep soul-searching before God. Make sure your salvation with fear and trembling.

This does not conflict with the preservation of the saints doctrine, also known as OSAS. Christ will lose none that are given to Him. Unfortunately, many people fool themselves into believing they are Christians, and for them Christ has this to say "Depart from me, I never knew you". I hope and pray that noone on this board will one day hear that from the savior. What a tragedy it will be!!!