Missions and Worship?

Originally posted by DeclareHim:
I read this quote the other day and was wondering what you guys thought about it....

"Missions is not the ultimate goal of the church. Worship is. Missions exists because worship doesn't." John Piper.

Since I'm BGC I enjoy Dr. Piper's material. But the above quote doesn't seem Baptistic. It doesn't seem "Evangelical". What do you guys think.

Click to expand...

Amen and amen. Dr. Piper's book is one of the best books ever written on missions IMHO. As a missionary myself, it changed my life. It gave me a bigger picture for world evangelism, and challenged me to be God-centered in my theology of missions.

I don't know why you would say it is not Baptistic. Baptists have historically been totally centered on the glory of God as being supreme in all things. It was the desire to see the other worshipers of God gathered in from every people tribe, tongue and nation that drove the early Baptist missionary endeavors of men like Judson and Carrey.

This statement is certainly evangelistic. Since God's greatest desire is to be worshiped by people from every nation, and since God says He will not give His glory to another, and since He is in the business of calling other worshipers to Himself, we proclaim the Gospel. And the Gospel is God's ordained way of bringing in those many worshipers to Himself, it is His harvest.

Originally posted by Mexdeaf:

I do NOT agree with Piper's statement. Missions exists because God commands us to go!

Click to expand...

But why does God command us to Go? Because His greatest desire is to be glorified in all things. So Piper is right. Missions exists because mankind does not worship God, and God wants to be worshiped on a universal scale.

Folks as I read through this thread I notice that the way Piper is using the word worship is being mis-understood. He is not saying that because Christians don't worship God, we have missions, what He is saying is that because humanity does not worship God like He is to be worshiped we have missions, so that other worshipers may be gathered in and one day God will be worshiped like He wants to be worshiped.

John, I like the fact that you are concerned with God's glory in all things. Worship is a lifestyle of glorifying God in all things.

We have the tendency to think that worship is what one does on Sunday at church, or is what one does when he sings a song at church, but worship is much more than that. Worship is a lifestyle.

Worship is when I find all my statifaction in God. Worship is my heart exploding with radient joy that wittness of the power of Christ in my life. Worship is moment by moment passion for God to be glorifed in every aspect of my life. Worship is when I see the blackness of my sin and how dead I am apart from redeeming Grace. Worship is when I rejoice that He has buried my sins in an ocean of redeeming blood.

Worship is a lifestyle of glorifying God, and that is what God wants above all things. The God-centrednes of God is assurance that He will fulfill His great commission through His children, and I am so glad He has chosen me to be a part of that great end.

4Hisglory, that's one of the best, concise, and true descriptions of worship I've read.

One of the reasons I never "praise the Lord" by lifting of hands and such things, even though I'm not AGAINST it per se, is because to call such things worship is to make it a flat, shallow experience; and many of those that do it, as far as they are concerned, the worship ends when the music or hand-lifting ends. I refuse to equate my worship experience with that.

Piper is really effective in his teaching, isn't he? One of the things that converted me to C was that it suddenly dawned on me one day the soul-winning was not the ends, but the means to a greater purpose - that being the worship and glory of God.

I wish there was some way that you and I could get folks to see the overwhelming joy we experience every day, walking in the love of our sovereign Lord, knowing that He is in control of everything, working all things together for our good and His glory.

4Hisglory said "Worship is when I find all my statifaction in God. Worship is my heart exploding with radient joy that wittness of the power of Christ in my life. Worship is moment by moment passion for God to be glorifed in every aspect of my life. Worship is when I see the blackness of my sin and how dead I am apart from redeeming Grace. Worship is when I rejoice that He has buried my sins in an ocean of redeeming blood.

Worship is a lifestyle of glorifying God, and that is what God wants above all things. The God-centrednes of God is assurance that He will fulfill His great commission through His children, and I am so glad He has chosen me to be a part of that great end."

Just worth repeating.

Originally posted by 4His_glory:
Folks as I read through this thread I notice that the way Piper is using the word worship is being mis-understood. He is not saying that because Christians don't worship God, we have missions, what He is saying is that because humanity does not worship God like He is to be worshiped we have missions, so that other worshipers may be gathered in and one day God will be worshiped like He wants to be worshiped.

John, I like the fact that you are concerned with God's glory in all things. Worship is a lifestyle of glorifying God in all things.

We have the tendency to think that worship is what one does on Sunday at church, or is what one does when he sings a song at church, but worship is much more than that. Worship is a lifestyle.

Worship is when I find all my statifaction in God. Worship is my heart exploding with radient joy that wittness of the power of Christ in my life. Worship is moment by moment passion for God to be glorifed in every aspect of my life. Worship is when I see the blackness of my sin and how dead I am apart from redeeming Grace. Worship is when I rejoice that He has buried my sins in an ocean of redeeming blood.

Worship is a lifestyle of glorifying God, and that is what God wants above all things. The God-centrednes of God is assurance that He will fulfill His great commission through His children, and I am so glad He has chosen me to be a part of that great end.

Click to expand...

Amen, good words

Originally posted by His In China:
Articles like Dr. Piper are used to justify a churches coldness towards missions.

Click to expand...

I strongly disagree. I am Baptist General Conference the Baptist denomination of which Dr. Piper is in and we are certainly not "cold" toward missions. Actually quite the contrary.

Originally posted by 4His_glory:

John, I like the fact that you are concerned with God's glory in all things. Worship is a lifestyle of glorifying God in all things.

...The God-centrednes of God is assurance that He will fulfill His great commission through His children, and I am so glad He has chosen me to be a part of that great end.

Click to expand...

I'm not just concerned with the the glory of God in all things, it is the very ground of my existence and the foundation of my dispensational theology!

I, too, am greatly honored that I was called of God to be a missionary. With Paul, "I magnify my office."

To pontificate a bit more on obedience as a motive for missions, virtually all the missioanaries I know, including myself, had no desire to become a missionary until God called them, and then oftentimes struggled with the call for a long time--five days in my case, but years for some. There are a few who long to be missionaries from childhood, and then rejoice when they are finally called, but that is not the usual experience of missionaries. We go to the field because we are called and obey!

Originally posted by J.D.:
Piper is really effective in his teaching, isn't he? One of the things that converted me to C was that it suddenly dawned on me one day the soul-winning was not the ends, but the means to a greater purpose - that being the worship and glory of God.

I wish there was some way that you and I could get folks to see the overwhelming joy we experience every day, walking in the love of our sovereign Lord, knowing that He is in control of everything, working all things together for our good and His glory.

Click to expand...

Friend, it is not your doctrine that gives you overwhelming joy and trust in God, as can be seen by the fact that there are plenty of sourpusses and name-calling nasties on both sides of that issue on the BB. I have great joy daily in serving Christ, and I am not a C, though I believe in true worship and the glory of God. So please don't turn this thread into a C vs A debate (not that I think you are trying to).

When the disciples came back from a missions trip, they were instructed by Christ to rejoice not because of mighty works or proper doctrine, but because their names are written in Heaven (Luke 10:20)! There was a time during our ministry in Yokohama when I was discouraged and defeated, since this is a "Gospel-resistant country." I would pass out 5000 tracts or leaflets and have absolutely no response. (It is harder now--now it is sometimes 10,000 with no response.) Then I learned the secret of Luke 10:20 and have had wonderful joy ever since, just thinking of my eternal salvation through Christ and His goodness and love!

Piper quoted John Stott in the Preface, and this may explain why he didn't say much about obedience as a motive:

The highest of missionary motives is neither obedience to the Great Commission (important as that is), nor love for sinners who are alienated and perishing (strong as that incentive is, especially when we contemplate the wrath of God . . .), but rather zeal—burning and passionate zeal—for the glory of Jesus Christ. . . . Only one imperialism is Christian . . . and that is concern for His Imperial Majesty Jesus Christ, and for the glory of his empire.

Click to expand...

That comes from Stott's book called "Romans: God’s Good News for the World". I agree that obedience is important but I don't think it is ultimate.

Whenever someone asks "why do Calvinists evangelize" I usually answer "obedience", but I think what Stott said is much better. Obedience is important but I think it is also important to define the motive for obedience, which I think ought ultimately to be our passion for God's glory.

Why do those of you defending Piper's statement feel the urge to try and define what you "think" he meant? If he didn't mean it like he said it then what did he mean. I'm assuming he knew exactly what he wanted to say when he made the statement. Your defense muddies the waters more than his comment.

Worship of God in Spirit and truth always produces the desire for one to be obedient to what God has declared. What HE has declared is that we "go into all the world"
The exact opposite of what Piper is quoted as saying would take place if more people were worshipping God. Missions would would flourish. Zeal for the lost would be as hot as ever. Now a heart that was hot for missions that was fueled by desire to give God the glory due to the sincerity of one's worship of God would ultimately bring the church age to a close because those who would be saved would have heard.

IF that is what Piper meant then okay. I'm thinking that he didn't mean it that way.
Personally I think he was trying to sound all too pious. He was trying to hard when he made that quote.

Furthermore, he is a calvinist and that sounds very much calvinistic. Not that calvinist aren't evangelistic. I know plenty that are.

Yet some calvinists at times sound like they have a little bit of Roman Catholicism in the woodpile somewhere.

Did you know that Piper doesn't even require baptism by immersion to join his "baptist" church even if a individual has only been sprinkled?

Whether you think that a big deal or not I don't care. I'm just saying don't call yourself a baptist if your not going to act as one.

I'm reading Desiring God. I don't know if I'm so keen on what he calls Christian Hedonism.

Sometimes I get leary of fellows that like to try and coin phrases. Whether it is a powder puff preacher like Rick Warren with his PDL or if it is from the other end of the spectrum with a guy like Piper who is trying to make a mark on church history with his Christian Hedonism terminology.

Originally posted by 4His_glory:
Folks as I read through this thread I notice that the way Piper is using the word worship is being mis-understood. He is not saying that because Christians don't worship God, we have missions, what He is saying is that because humanity does not worship God like He is to be worshiped we have missions, so that other worshipers may be gathered in and one day God will be worshiped like He wants to be worshiped.

John, I like the fact that you are concerned with God's glory in all things. Worship is a lifestyle of glorifying God in all things.

We have the tendency to think that worship is what one does on Sunday at church, or is what one does when he sings a song at church, but worship is much more than that. Worship is a lifestyle.

Worship is when I find all my statifaction in God. Worship is my heart exploding with radient joy that wittness of the power of Christ in my life. Worship is moment by moment passion for God to be glorifed in every aspect of my life. Worship is when I see the blackness of my sin and how dead I am apart from redeeming Grace. Worship is when I rejoice that He has buried my sins in an ocean of redeeming blood.

Worship is a lifestyle of glorifying God, and that is what God wants above all things. The God-centrednes of God is assurance that He will fulfill His great commission through His children, and I am so glad He has chosen me to be a part of that great end.

Click to expand...

Well, when you put it like that I cannot disagree!

Originally posted by shannonL:
Personally I think he was trying to sound all too pious. He was trying to hard when he made that quote.

Click to expand...

Personally I think that is an awfully judgmental thing to say. If you disagree with his premises or his conclusions then say why. Questioning his motives is uncharitable at best and unchristian at worst.

Piper did mean what he said exactly the way he said it. That does not mean that everyone who reads it will understand it the same way. The rest of your post illustrates this perfectly.

Originally posted by whatever:
Piper quoted John Stott in the Preface, and this may explain why he didn't say much about obedience as a motive: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The highest of missionary motives is neither obedience to the Great Commission (important as that is), nor love for sinners who are alienated and perishing (strong as that incentive is, especially when we contemplate the wrath of God . . .), but rather zeal—burning and passionate zeal—for the glory of Jesus Christ. . . . Only one imperialism is Christian . . . and that is concern for His Imperial Majesty Jesus Christ, and for the glory of his empire.

Click to expand...

That comes from Stott's book called "Romans: God’s Good News for the World". I agree that obedience is important but I don't think it is ultimate.

Whenever someone asks "why do Calvinists evangelize" I usually answer "obedience", but I think what Stott said is much better. Obedience is important but I think it is also important to define the motive for obedience, which I think ought ultimately to be our passion for God's glory. </font>[/QUOTE]I'm puzzled at this. How could obedience be a lower motive than any other motive? You say that you agree with Stott, and that you believe the motive for obedience ought to be our passion for God's glory. I have agreed that God's glory is the right foundation for our theology, but I think it is clear in the Bible that the motive for obedience is our love for God, not our passion for His glory.

The Bible teaches clearly over and over that obedience is the sign proving that we love Him. Now if the first of all commandments is to love God (and we know it is), and the proof of that love is that we obey Him, how could it be a lesser motive, as Stott says?

I think the pattern should be thus: we love Him, so we obey Him, so we do missions, through which God gets glory.

John 14:15--If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21--He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 15:10--If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1 John 5:2--By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

1 John 5:3--For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

2 John 1:6--And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

Originally posted by shannonL:
Why do those of you defending Piper's statement feel the urge to try and define what you "think" he meant? If he didn't mean it like he said it then what did he mean. I'm assuming he knew exactly what he wanted to say when he made the statement. Your defense muddies the waters more than his comment.

Click to expand...

You know, I have to agree with shannonL. Two quotes have been given by Piper, and they seem to disagree with each other. In the OP, Piper is quoted as saying, "Missions is not the ultimate goal of the church. Worship is. Missions exists because worship doesn't." Then whatever quotes him as saying, "The ultimate goal of the church is to reflect and display the glory and worth of God."

I'm not sure he has Scripture for either position, though I'm not saying yet that I disagree. I'll have to study it more. However, I just did a PowerBible search and learned that there are only three verses in the entire Bible that have both "glory" and "worship" (1 Chron. 16:29, Ps. 29:2 & Rev. 14:7), and none of them prove Piper's points.

Again, there is only one verse in the NT which has both "glory" and "church," the magnificent Eph. 3:21--"Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen." This can be translated either as "in the church" or as an instrumental, "by means of the church." So where is the proof here that the purpose of the church is worship?

Furthermore, there are NO verses that have both "worship" and "church" together. No passages have I found to back Piper's contention that the purpose of the church is worship. I believe that the purposes of the church are to get believers to serve Christ (Eph. 4:11-12) and build up each other (Heb. 10:25), and those things redound to His glory.

I think glorifying God is central . When God glorifies Himself , or when the angels , or the regenerate , or eventually even the unsaved bow their knees to Him it is the primary thing stressed in Scripture .

Portions of texts follow .

unto the praise of the glory of His grace -- Eph.1:12,14

whom I created for my glory -- Isaiah 43:7

I will be glorfied -- Isaiah 49:3

that they might be for me a people , a name , a praise , and a glory -- Jeremiah 13:11

for His name's sake that he might make known His mighty power -- Psalm 106:8

that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth -- Romans 9:17

I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host ; and the Egyptians shall know tht I am the Lord , when I have gotten glory over pharaoh , his chaiots , and his horsemen . Exodus 14:4 ; Ro. 17,18 .

I acted for the sake of my name , that it should not be profaned -- Ezekiel 20:14

making himself a name -- 2 Samuel 7:23

for his great name's sake -- 1 Samuel 12:22

for my own sake -- 2 Kings 19:34 , 20:6

I will vindicate the holiness of my great name... I will show the holiness of my great name -- Ezekiel 36:22,23

give glory to your Father who is in heaven -- Matthew 5:16 ; 1 Peter 2:12

No , for this purpose I have come to this hour . Father glorify your name . Then a voice came from heaven , I have glorified it , and I will glorify it again . -- John 12;27,28

glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you -- John 17:1 ; 13:31,32

for my own sake - Isaiah 43:25

your name's sake -- Psalm 25:11

for the glory of God -- Romans 15:7

He will glorify me -- John 16:14

do all for the glory of God -- 1 Corinthians 10:31

in order that in everything God may be glorified through Jesus Christ -- 1 Peter 4:11

to the glory and praise of God -- Philippians 1:11

to be glorified in his saints -- 2 Thessalonians 1:10

behold my glory -- John 17:24

the knowledge of the glory of the Lord -- Habakkuk 2:14

To him be glory forever -- Romans 11:36

Isaiah 48:9-11

For my name's sake! -- For the sake of my praise !
For my own sake ! -- For my own sake ! -- How should my name be profane ! -- My glory I will not give to another !

I don't think you'll find anyone on this thread to disagree with you here, Rippon. Please go back and read the whole thread if you haven't yet.

ShannonL , I would like to address a couple things with you . What did you mean when you said that "Calvinists sound like they have a little bit of Roman Catholicism in the woodpile somewhere ." ?

I do not understand when you say that John Piper sounds too pious . I admit that he does seem to try too hard in order to come up with fresh ways of saying old truths . But pious , nah .

I think Piper dropped the Hedonism small print from his book . For putting that as a subtitle he got a lot of flak about it , (even from his closest friends) . It made me cringe also . A great deal of misunderstanding was created from that bad move on his part , in my opinion .

A little church history . Everyone knows that John Bunyan was a Baptist , right ? Well , he wasn't so strict about the practice . He had his convictions about the scripturalness of believer's baptism , but he did not think that should be a bar to church membership . Two of his children were even sprinkled .

JOJ , I thought you were insisting that our passion for His glory should be secondary to our love for Him . Of course the two are intimately connected with the other .

Originally posted by Rippon:
JOJ , I thought you were insisting that our passion for His glory should be secondary to our love for Him . Of course the two are intimately connected with the other .

Click to expand...

Agreed.