It isn't "man's need of salvation rather than God's desire to be worshipped," it is both!! How can there be a "one or the other" here?drfuss said:
If souls are saved, they are made fit to worship God and God is glorified by their salvation.
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Missions and Worship?
- Thread starter DeclareHim
- Start date
If souls are saved, they are made fit to worship God and God is glorified by their salvation.4His_glory
New Member
A good and worthy question, that I feel is easily answered. The Gospel is all about enjoying God and enjoying God is worshiping Him. A person can not enjoy God unless He has a relationship with God, and since fallen man does not have a relationship with God, we proclaim the Gospel which is part of God's plan in creating that needful relationship.
Piper believes in exegesis too. The trouble with only examining portions of a book is that we fail to get the big picture. He uses plenty of Scripture and good exegesis to prove his points. I recommend you read the book (like you have time for that I'm sure!) even if you don't agree with it, at least you will come away with a better understanding of what Piper is saying.
LOL! I agree, and I think John Piper would as well. We give them the Gospel so that they might enjoy God.
I believe God's greatest desire is to be glorified in all things, and because that is greatest desire we have missions- so that others will glorify God. It is God's concern for His own glory that assures us He will fulfill His Great Commission through us.
Okay, 4His_Glory, this is well said. I agree that our first priority is God's glory--I just have problems with how Piper is saying it. It just doesn't sound like the Great Commission to me. Granted, I haven't read the book. Maybe someday!4His_glory said:
ok. i've read a couple posts on almost each page...
so i'll just focus on what the OP said.
quote: " "Missions is not the ultimate goal of the church. Worship is. Missions exists because worship doesn't." John Piper."
i fully do not agree with that.
what was the main reason Jesus came down to earth? - to seek and to save that which is lost.
what is that labelled as? - missions.
yet missions (or service) without worship - is nothing - because worship involves prayer - involves fellowship - involves reading the word - without that how are we to be strengthened by the Lord?
worship without service is nothing. period.
they are not two different things - rather they are one in the same.
so i'll just focus on what the OP said.
quote: " "Missions is not the ultimate goal of the church. Worship is. Missions exists because worship doesn't." John Piper."
i fully do not agree with that.
what was the main reason Jesus came down to earth? - to seek and to save that which is lost.
what is that labelled as? - missions.
yet missions (or service) without worship - is nothing - because worship involves prayer - involves fellowship - involves reading the word - without that how are we to be strengthened by the Lord?
worship without service is nothing. period.
they are not two different things - rather they are one in the same.
4His_glory
New Member
Why did He have to save those who were lost? Because they did not glorify God in their fallen state and that is what God wants above all other things. Glorifying God in all things is worshiping Him so yes the quote is right.
Consider this passage:
"Now My soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save Me from this hour’? But for this purpose I came to this hour."Father, glorify Your name." Then a voice came from heaven, saying, "I have both glorified it and will glorify it again." John 12:27-28
Christ sought to glorify the Father in His final hours of suffering.
And in John 17 Jesus prays:
Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. "I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Missions is all about the glory of God, not simply "taking as many to heave as we can" (theologically I do not agree with that kind of thinking). Missions exists because God wants to be worshiped.
Worship is a lifestyle of glorifying God in all things. It is possible to serve God without worshiping Him. When we focus on our efforts rather than let it be His power and grace; when we boast in numbers rather than the work He accomplishes, when are fixiated on men instead of God, we are not worshiping God with our service but rather ourselves. God-centered service is worshiping Him.
The chief focus of the church
I have read this thread with great interest, and after reviewing the posts, reading the verses, and applying it to my own knowledge of the Bible, I have come to a conclusion.
The chief focus of the Church should be to glorify God. This seems to be the theme repeated throughout many different views, supported by many different verses, and most fitting with the picture of the church as the bride of Christ.
The pillars which support this lofty goal are Worship, Nurture and Outreach (both local and missions). Worship to show forth the praise and reflect the glory of God. Nurture, to equip the body of Christ to grow in faith and Christ-likeness, building a church that is growing in ability to both Worship and perform Outreach. Outreach, to build the church of God, equipping more people to Worship God, and then nurturing them to a better and better relationship with God and each other.
None of these stand on their own. We worship God in everything we do, including nurture and outreach. We nurture the body of Christ to better equip people to worship God and to do outreach. We perform outreach to worship God and provide new people to nurture. Outreach without nurture results in no growth for new believers. Nurture without worship will not edify anyone. Worship without the other 2 will eventually dwindle and die out.
In other words, all are equally important and should be the root of everything the church does. Favoring one over the others will eventually cripple the church.
This, IMHO is what I would view as the summation of the entire matter of which takes pre-eminence. Answer - none of them.:smilewinkgrin:
I have read this thread with great interest, and after reviewing the posts, reading the verses, and applying it to my own knowledge of the Bible, I have come to a conclusion.
The chief focus of the Church should be to glorify God. This seems to be the theme repeated throughout many different views, supported by many different verses, and most fitting with the picture of the church as the bride of Christ.
The pillars which support this lofty goal are Worship, Nurture and Outreach (both local and missions). Worship to show forth the praise and reflect the glory of God. Nurture, to equip the body of Christ to grow in faith and Christ-likeness, building a church that is growing in ability to both Worship and perform Outreach. Outreach, to build the church of God, equipping more people to Worship God, and then nurturing them to a better and better relationship with God and each other.
None of these stand on their own. We worship God in everything we do, including nurture and outreach. We nurture the body of Christ to better equip people to worship God and to do outreach. We perform outreach to worship God and provide new people to nurture. Outreach without nurture results in no growth for new believers. Nurture without worship will not edify anyone. Worship without the other 2 will eventually dwindle and die out.
In other words, all are equally important and should be the root of everything the church does. Favoring one over the others will eventually cripple the church.
This, IMHO is what I would view as the summation of the entire matter of which takes pre-eminence. Answer - none of them.:smilewinkgrin:
Well said, Dave! :thumbs: :applause:
We had some teaching on this somewhat recently and it's a little different than what Dave said. Instead of it being 3 pillars, it was likened to 3 fountains that are set together - one on top of the other. The top fountain is the worship one and out of the overflow of that, we can then nurture the body. Out of the overflow of that, we can have outreach. If nothing else, we are to worship God and love Him. The other 2 come from the overflow of the level above it.
I've got 4 kids vying for my attention right now so I'm not sure I'm explaining this well - sorry!
Annie
I've got 4 kids vying for my attention right now so I'm not sure I'm explaining this well - sorry!
Annie
annsni writes:
"We had some teaching on this somewhat recently and it's a little different than what Dave said. Instead of it being 3 pillars, it was likened to 3 fountains that are set together - one on top of the other. The top fountain is the worship one and out of the overflow of that, we can then nurture the body. Out of the overflow of that, we can have outreach. If nothing else, we are to worship God and love Him. The other 2 come from the overflow of the level above it."
A very good model.
"We had some teaching on this somewhat recently and it's a little different than what Dave said. Instead of it being 3 pillars, it was likened to 3 fountains that are set together - one on top of the other. The top fountain is the worship one and out of the overflow of that, we can then nurture the body. Out of the overflow of that, we can have outreach. If nothing else, we are to worship God and love Him. The other 2 come from the overflow of the level above it."
A very good model.
it may be a good analogy.
but i believe that worship - 'nurturing the body' (whatever that means) - and outreach --> are all on the same level.
like i've said before - worship without service is vain - service without worship is vain. cant have one without the other. can't be soundly saved if you dont have a passion for the lost. can't be soundly saved if you do not wish for others to be saved.
if you're a true christian - worship will come naturally. its called discipline.
if you're a true christian - you will have a passion for the lost - and desire to do what Jesus came to do - to seek and to save the lost.
(i know only God saves) - my point is: we plant the seed.
im sure glad the disciples didn't just stay in the upper room worshiping Christ most of Jesus' ministry.
no - they went out and evangelized.
but i believe that worship - 'nurturing the body' (whatever that means) - and outreach --> are all on the same level.
like i've said before - worship without service is vain - service without worship is vain. cant have one without the other. can't be soundly saved if you dont have a passion for the lost. can't be soundly saved if you do not wish for others to be saved.
if you're a true christian - worship will come naturally. its called discipline.
if you're a true christian - you will have a passion for the lost - and desire to do what Jesus came to do - to seek and to save the lost.
(i know only God saves) - my point is: we plant the seed.
im sure glad the disciples didn't just stay in the upper room worshiping Christ most of Jesus' ministry.
no - they went out and evangelized.
Amen! Or none of us would be here!gekko said:
gekko said:
But in them going out, they were working out of the overflow of being with Christ (worship) and with each other (nurturing) and were now more than ready and almost NEEDED to go out to minister to the others! They weren't ready to do that earlier.
Annie
4His_glory
New Member
gekko and others,
I think you are all still viewing worship as an experience, like a service at church. I see worship differently in the Scritptures, I see worship as what we as Christians do with our lives. As I have said again and again worship is a lifestyle of glorifying God in all things. This is more than just saying "I praise you God for such and such." It is a life that hungers after righteousness and desires God, a life that seek joy and satisfaction from the Source of all true joy and satisfaction. When we live a God-focused life we are worshiping Him, because He is pre-eminant in all that we do.
Worship is biblical missions, worshp is evangelisim, worship is serving Christ with my life, worship is putting Christ at the center of all I do. It's not an experience, its a lifestyle- the biblical Christian life. And that is what God wants. So when we are involved in reaching the nations with the Gospel in order that they too might give God what He desires above all other things, we are worshiping Him.
So I disagree with the model of nurturing, outreach and worship, for it creates a dichotomy that I do not see in Scipture.
Here is how I view it:
God wants to be worshiped above all other things:
When I live for Him I am worshiping Him.
When I proclaim the Gospel I am worshipping Him.
When I give of my resources I am worshipping Him.
Worshiping God is the biblical Christian life- a lifestyle that glorifies Him- I don't think we can divorce evangelism and missions from that for they themselves are part of the whole.
Re 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
Re 7:10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" [NKJV}
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The one issue I have with the idea of worship overflow being the source of nurture and outreach is that worship may not be overflowing and then what happens? I think knowledge that is the result of nurturing enhances worship. I think outreach successes can enhance worship.
In the model of worship overflowing into the other two, I think you can then focus on worship to the detriment of the other two and that would result in a short-lived church.
In the model of worship overflowing into the other two, I think you can then focus on worship to the detriment of the other two and that would result in a short-lived church.
4HisGlory,
I would agree that we worship God in all we do if we are living for Him and Him alone. I don't think you can equate worship with glorifying God. Glorifying God is what I see as the chief aim of the church both on a corporate level and individual level. If you are equating worship with the concept of glorifying God, then I would agree with your post with the exception that I don't agree that they are the same thing. If you are not using them interchangably, then my agreement is slightly less.
Yes, we should be worshiping God in all we do and yes, the doing of it is a form of worship for it is acknowledging the pre-eminence and righteousness of the God who wants us to do these things.
Worship should come out of missions and nurture, missions come out of worship and nurture, nurture comes out of worship and missions. All work together in the model to support giving God glory as the chief goal. I think it is just another way of saying largely the same thing.
The model, I think, is useful for the church however, as a check point that they are directing all their resources in a proper direction. If you cannot relate a church program to worship, nurture or outreach, then why are you doing it?
I would agree that we worship God in all we do if we are living for Him and Him alone. I don't think you can equate worship with glorifying God. Glorifying God is what I see as the chief aim of the church both on a corporate level and individual level. If you are equating worship with the concept of glorifying God, then I would agree with your post with the exception that I don't agree that they are the same thing. If you are not using them interchangably, then my agreement is slightly less.
Yes, we should be worshiping God in all we do and yes, the doing of it is a form of worship for it is acknowledging the pre-eminence and righteousness of the God who wants us to do these things.
Worship should come out of missions and nurture, missions come out of worship and nurture, nurture comes out of worship and missions. All work together in the model to support giving God glory as the chief goal. I think it is just another way of saying largely the same thing.
The model, I think, is useful for the church however, as a check point that they are directing all their resources in a proper direction. If you cannot relate a church program to worship, nurture or outreach, then why are you doing it?