Rick Warren on Music

I think that there's a time to speak to people on an intellectual level and that there are times when God speaks to us on a much deeper, much more personal level.

If you've ever read my posts on ChristianForums, then you know that I believe very strongly that God gave us a mind and expects us to use it.

But I also believe that, if that's all we do, analyze every little detail, then our worship will become just another academic excercise and we'll miss God's presence and His blessing.


Now Playing: Warren Zevon - "My Ride's Here"

 

What's your reaction? </font>[/QUOTE]I think this is potentially very dangerous thinking in that he seems to encourage turning off the intellect and allowing the emotional "heart" take over. When I was a teen, I used to listen to the pounding rhythms of Twisted Sister. I used to tell my parents that I don't listen to the words. I just like the music. And in all honesty, that was somewhat true. I really did like the music. But, the message of rebellion and hatred came through loud and clear in my behavior. The music of Queensryche, likewise, could also make me very emotional and reach straight for the heart. But when I turned on the intellectual side of me and really examined what was being fed into my brain, I had to admit that there was a problem. Pure emotionalism without any intellect is indeed a dangerous thing. But if they are kept in balance with sound, intellectual doctrine, the emotion of music, can, imo, be useful.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Yeah, I've always liked them. I guess most people still know them from "Third Rate Romance" but they're still out there.


Now Playing: Boz Scaggs – Boz Scaggs

 

Just as the heart is not disconnected from the mind, the mind is not disconnected from the heart.

It is modernist rational reductionism that says that all truth must be recieved through the intellect first.

Just as the mind touches the heart, the heart also touches the mind.

Turning off your intellect is not a wise thing to do.

 

All truth must be first recognized and lastly acted upon with the intellect. The emotional core of our nature can serve as an excellent compass, but it will lead us astray when we relinquish our will to it.

 

Music is unique. It crosses back and forth between the external logic (Greek/male) and internal intuitive (Jewish/female) mindset. And reaches everyone.

I preach with intensity using the narrow absolutes of Greek logic. I seek music to reach the other side that the most golden-tongued could not reach.

But even the most beautiful and soul-touching music MUST have order and correct doctrine to appeal to me! </font>[/QUOTE]Excellent post!

 

I think the statement is true, which makes the real question whether or not it's a good thing or bad.

Compare the number of people that can repeat 3 main points of a great sermon a week later against the number of people that could recite 3 verses of a theological train-wreck of a song a year later just because it had some nice 2/4/6 chords.

On the plus side look at the hymns of Watts & Wesley that are still with us.

 

I agree.

 

Given the society we live in, I don't think the idea that we get our theology from superficial sources is all that farfetched. After all, there was just a poll out that said that a growing number of young people get their news information from late night talk show monologues and the "Daily Show".

As far as hymns go, obviously a hymn is no substitute for Bible study and good expositional preaching but hymns can be a good part of a well balanced spiritual life in that they help us to codify our beliefs and make deep spiritual truths simple and easy to digest.

I keep a hymnal by my bedside to use in my private devotional time for just this reason. I enjoy incorporating the beautiful and deeply satisfying words into my time with God.

I also have to be honest and admit that much of my theological wiring comes from the Carter Stanley and Carl Story songs I heard as a child.

I truly believe that these two men are as great hymn writers as Wesley or Fanny Crosby.


Now Playing: Jack Mosley – "The Nature of an Island”

 

85% of what people know about God comes through hymns? Thank God, said reverently, that it does. That's how I got saved.

Liz

 

OK, if it hasn't been said before, let me throw this in to think about...in light of Warren's comment about music and sermons: How many hymns of Wesley can you name and how many sermons of Wesley can you name?

 

Since I have never read any of Wesley's sermons but I have sung many many of his or his brother's songs...

In HIS service;
Jim

 

Quote: "The issue is simply this: Should the gospel bypass the intellect to go to the emotions? Warren says it should."

Good grief!!! That's not even close to what he said. It's pretty simple english and you'd think an educated person wouldn't have that much trouble reading and understanding what he said.

He never said a word about having the gospel bypass the intellect. He said intellectual BARRIERS. I can think of tons of those. Barriers could include things taught by a humanistic science teacher. Or something hatefull said by a Sunday School teacher. Or misperceptions about what church is all about. Again, read it slowly - intellectual BARRIERS.

And secondly, he did not say a word about emotions. You are adding that in there to help make whatever point it is you're trying to make.

 

Here's the quote one more time:

"A song can often touch people in a way that a sermon can't. Music can bypass intellectual barriers and take the message straight to the heart."

 

My point about Wesley goes along with what we are discussing, IMHO.

Personally, i can't tell you what was preached on the night i was saved...but i remember the song that was sung right after a testimony was given that verified with me that i was lost and needed Jesus. To this day when i hear "Champion of Love" i remember that night.

Music does have a way of reaching us in ways that the spoken or the preached word can't sometimes. Does that mean it supercedes the preaching of the Gospel? NO, NO and NO!

So i do agree to some extent with what Warren says, music can sometimes break through barriers.

And i go back to the fact that i can name a handful of Wesley's hymns, but couldn't tell you a single thing about any of this sermons...i have no idea why, but for whatever reason the music has inbedded itself in my mind in a way that the preached word did not.

just my 2 cents...hopefully i'll have enough for a cup of coffee soon.

in HIS grip
bobbyd

 

Several points. The heart does include your emotions, but it's not only the emotions. It's also your mind and your will. You cannot seperate your intellect from your mind, will and emotions.

And you are wrong about intellectual barriers. If someone at a young age is hurt by a person who's a leader in church - say a SS teacher - then that person can easily come to the conclusion that Christians are narrow minded, hateful people, and using his intellect, make the decision that he doesn't want to be one.

Looks to me like yor've made up your mind to be against anything associated with RW and will grasp at any straw to make a point. But this time, as usual, Rick Warren is spot on right. If not, you should cancel all music at your church immediately. Heaven forbid someone come to Christ any way other than preaching.

 

How nice of you to read Rick Warren's mind, translate his words to what he "really" means and use typical strawman tactics to attack someone you don't like.

And even if your mind reading translation was correct (which it isn't), I also disagree with this statement.

It is rational modernist reductionism that says that the intellect is the gate to all truth and that the heart is separate from the intellect.

The understanding and percieving with your heart that Warren is talking about is biblically from Isaiah and quoted by John.