Instrumental Worship - is it Biblical?

Hi all,

I just finished a long study on music, but I am not a music historian - so if any of you are I would greatly appreciate your comments, or even constructive critisism of my new article on this subject.

It is a work in progress, and I am perfectly willing to make edits to it if good, compelling information is given to me.

Anything you might think would strengthen it would be appreciated as well.

Even if you are not a music history expert, take a look and let me know what you think.

http://www.ifbreformation.org/Church_Music.aspx

Thanks

IFBReformer

Very nice, IFB. Good article.

The fact of the matter remains, they are not commanded in the NT and were shunned for the first centuries of Christianity.

Those who use them do so not because it is what God desires, but because it is what they desire. But if using instruments causes my brother to offend...

There is no way around that fact. You cannot make a Scriptural argument for the use of instruments in Christian worship. One can, and the Early Fathers did very well to do so, show where instrumental worship introduces more problems than benefits.

The kingdom of God is not harps, flutes or viols, but love, joy and peace in the Holy Ghost. If their use causes division, then burn them all. (They will all burn up in the End, anyway.)

[Note: You cannot from this post know whether I use instruments in worship or not. What I am doing is not the issue. What the Scriptures teach is.]

Apparently the Harps don't, since they will be used in Heaven. If it's good enough for the angelic throng to worship, it's good enough for me. Now, hand me that 12-string guitar for a second...

Psalm 150 "Praise the Lord! Praise God in His sanctuary; Praise Him in His mighty expanse. Praise Him for His mighty deeds; Praise Him according to His excellent greatness. Praise Him with trumpet sound; Praise Him with harp and lyre. Praise Him with timbrel and dancing; Praise Him with stringed instruments and pipe. Praise Him with loud cymbals; Praise Him with resounding cymbals. Let everything that has breath praise the Lord. Praise the Lord!"

I have a Violin waiting for me when I get home

Originally posted by Aaron:
The fact of the matter remains, they are not commanded in the NT and were shunned for the first centuries of Christianity.

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Bus ministries are not commanded in the New Testament - maybe we should'nt have those if someone is offended?(And Primitive Baptists are just one group of Christians that are offended)

Christian schools are not commanded in the
New Testament - maybe we should't have those either?

Sunday School is not commanded in the New Testament? Some(primitive baptists) are offended by that and maybe we should not have that either?

What about the evil Vacation Bible School?

None of these things are commanded but we use them in obeying the greater general command to preach and teach the Gospel of Christ.

Just as we use intruments to worship God in fulfillment of the general command sing and make melody in hearts and as I and many many other Christians have pointed out the word we translate as psalms most often refers to music with singing and instruments.

Originally posted by Aaron:
Those who use them do so not because it is what God desires, but because it is what they desire. But if using instruments causes my brother to offend...

There is no way around that fact. You cannot make a Scriptural argument for the use of instruments in Christian worship. One can, and the Early Fathers did very well to do so, show where instrumental worship introduces more problems than benefits.

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So God does not desire us to worship him with instruments? Funny how he desired David to worship with him with instruments and how he desires the saints and angels to worship in heaven with instruments and even gives them instruments, he will even introduce his second coming with instruments yet you and the early fathers falsely claim we must stop worshiping him with instruments? The early fathers all but ignored the instruments being used to worship God in Revelation as you apparently have done as well.

If my worship of God offends my brother he needs take his sin before the Lord and repent!

Originally posted by Aaron:
The kingdom of God is not harps, flutes or viols, but love, joy and peace in the Holy Ghost. If their use causes division, then burn them all. (They will all burn up in the End, anyway.)

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Actually harps are in the Kingdom of God:

"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues–last, because with them God's wrath is completed. And I saw what looked like a sea of glass mixed with fire and, standing beside the sea, those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and over the number of his name. They held harps given them by God and sang the song of Moses the servant of God and the song of the Lamb: 'Great and marvelous are your deeds, Lord God Almighty. Just and true are your ways, King of the ages'."
Revelation 15:1-3

So if truth causes division we just surrender it or burn it up as you say?

"18In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. 19No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval"
1 Corinthians 11:18-19

We should stand for truth, and if we believe God wants to be worshiped with instruments as is clearly seen the Psalms and in the book of Revelation we should stand for that truth against those who oppose it.

And just for those who will say Psalms is Old Testament and does not apply, we will agree there is the Old Covenant and the Mosaic Law which we are not under in the New Convenant, but there is also universal moral law in the Old Testament and universal instructions for worship that do not change.

The scriptures tell us that God took away those things which were contrary to us, is worshiping God as David wrote under the inspiration of God contrary to us?

Originally posted by Aaron:
[Note: You cannot from this post know whether I use instruments in worship or not. What I am doing is not the issue. What the Scriptures teach is.]

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I understand where you are coming from with this statement often times we attack the person making the argument or look for inconsistanies in their own life to disprove what they believe and I have done my best to not do this. However I think there is a danger of making our arguments only theorectial and never practically apply them to real life situations.

IFBReformer

[ April 01, 2005, 10:53 AM: Message edited by: IfbReformer ]

Originally posted by IfbReformer:
I just finished a long study on music, but I am not a music historian - so if any of you are I would greatly appreciate your comments, or even constructive critisism of my new article on this subject.

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Hi, Larry. I'm going to jot down a few notes about your article "Should the New Testament Church use Instrumental Music in Worship?" Even though I don't agree with many of your conclusions, I think it is a good addition to the internet resources on the subject.

1. Go through the article carefully and correct all typos. They may not necessarily change your meaning, but they can be a distraction to many people. For example, I was in a meeting last week in which a consulting group was giving a preliminary report criticizing our district (they are to find problems and make recommendations to improve the way we do things). Because many of the people there have backgrounds in teaching, they almost couldn't get beyond the many typos to address the real substance of the report.
2. To me, I find it confusing to come to the chapter "Musical Instruments in New Testament Worship" and find you immediately skipping over this issue (which I think I'll be reading) and going to worship in heaven (which is a different thing). I realize that you are tieing these thoughts together - if used in heaven why not on earth. I guess maybe I find that a "letdown".
3. Consider some footnotes or references for things that are not specifically supported in the text. For example, in "So when did instruments finally come into the church?", where did you find the information that "harp was used by monks in monasteries very early in the church", "somewhere between the mid 7th and mid 8th century A.D. the organ was introduced into the church", or "In America, the cello, flute, clarinet, bassoon, and violin all started being used in worship during the late 1700's." Give references.
4. Consider revising this: "It is interesting to note that most attackers of using instruments in church will briefly address the scriptures - misapply their rule of exclusion, and then spend the majority of their articles quoting church fathers and historians about the non-instrumental position." While you may have found it true in the articles you've researched, I find it questionable (and believe you would be hard pressed to prove) that MOST of the articles favoring non-instrumental vocal worship are as deprived of scriptural argument as you present here. Maybe just changing "most" to "many" would make it less pejorative.

Thanks again for adding to the internet resources on the subject. Thanks for listening.

I believe one of the NT words used for 'testify'
(or some related word?) in the original language refers to a stringed instrument, indicating that the person testifying was playing and probably also singing . I could be wrong.

Here are a couple of writings from Primitive Baptist Elders refuting the use of musical instruments in the worship service.

Article by Elder David Pyles

Article by Elder Zack Guess

They are a bit lengthy, but they both give excellent biblical support for our view.

Bro. James

Hi All!

Here's another link on the history of hymns and music in the church by each musical era: http://www.smithcreekmusic.com/Hymnology/Historical.Periods.html and you can see how music,vocal & instrumental developed in the church.

In Christ,

Dale

Originally posted by Dale McNamee:
Hi All!

Here's another link on the history of hymns and music in the church by each musical era: http://www.smithcreekmusic.com/Hymnology/Historical.Periods.html and you can see how music,vocal & instrumental developed in the church.

In Christ,

Dale

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Thanks! I will have to take a closer look at this site.

IFBReformer

Originally posted by Bro. James Reed:
Here are a couple of writings from Primitive Baptist Elders refuting the use of musical instruments in the worship service.

Article by Elder David Pyles

Article by Elder Zack Guess

They are a bit lengthy, but they both give excellent biblical support for our view.

Bro. James

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Thanks Brother James,

I did come across these when doing my study.

Here is a quote from Elder Zack Guess

The Scriptural Record

The following list includes every reference to the type of music which the early New Testament church used in worship to God. An examination of these Scriptures make plain the kind of music which God designed for His church.

1) And when they had sung an hymn, they went out
into the Mt. of Olives - Matt 26:30; Mark 14:26.
[example - not commanded]

2) And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God - Acts 16:25.
[example - not commanded]


3) For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name - Romans 15:9.
[example - not commanded]

4) I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also - 1Cor 14:15.
[example - not commanded]

5) Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord - Eph 5:19.
[command - but context is not the organized assembly - would apply at all times]

6) Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord - Col 3:16.
[command - but context is not the organized assembly - would apply at all times]

7) In the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee - Heb 2:12.
[example - not commanded]

8) Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms - James 5:13.
[command - but context is not the organized assembly - would apply at all times]

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Here with his quote I have included in brackets the context of each one these statements.

All except 3 are examples of believers singing and not commands to sing. The three verses that are commands are not given as worship instructions for the organized assembly but are instructions to believers in general. If they apply, they would apply at all times, and not just during formal worship.

So how then can this elder come to this conclusion that instruments can be used to worship God in the home?

"It has been said that instruments of music are all right in the home, so why not in the church? If one will stop to think, he can name several things in the home which would not be suitable for Christian worship. Washing hands is an act of cleanliness in the homes, but Jesus condemned it as an act of worship (Mark 7:1-13). Eating meat and vegetables is all right in the home, but we would be desecrating the Lord's table to put it there.

The home is governed by moral law. Anything that is morally right is all right in the home. Things morally right can be religiously wrong when used as an act of worship, if not authorized by the Scriptures. There is nothing morally wrong with burning incense in the home for the purpose of deodorizing the house, but as an act of worship it is wrong since it is unauthorized by the New Testament. Both singing and instrumental music may be enjoyed in the home, but we can bring into the worship service only that which is approved by the New Testament for that purpose; namely, vocal music."

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Elder Zack Guess gives us his assesment of the Harps in Revelation:

Instrumental Music Used in Heaven

Many who favor musical instruments in the worship service turn to the book of Revelation and cite Scriptures which speak of harps in heaven and conclude that whatever is suitable in heaven should be permitted in Christian worship. In a typical passage, Rev 5:8, And when he had taken the book, the four beasts andfour and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of the saints. In the first place, Revelation is a highly symbolic book which draws aside the curtain of the future and gives us a picture of spiritual things in heaven. In the second place, even if the things mentioned here are literal, the fact remains that it would be very unsound reasoning to conclude that mechanical instruments of music should be used here because harps are used in heaven. This verse from Revelation also mentions beasts and golden vials full of odours (incense). If we follow the principle that what is acceptable in heaven is acceptable in the church, not only must we have harps, but we must also have beasts and incense. There will be no marriage or giving in marriage in heaven (Matt 22:30); shall we abolish it here? There will be no baptism or Lord's Supper in heaven, but Christ commanded both to be practiced in the church.

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Before I respond to his assessment here, I want to make something clear. There are as we have pointed out, several passages that have New Testaments saints singing and only 3 passages that command New Testament saints to sing.

The singing, whether in jail, or in the assembly in these example passages shows us singing is permited in formal or home worship. Examples permit actions by us, commands require us to peform certain actions.

Most Non-instrumentalists will do as this Elder as done and state all these verses of examples of saints singing and infere these examples in fact form commands as to how we are to worship.

But when they come to examples of saints worshiping God in heaven with instruments, the non-intrumentalist says these examples do not command instruments in worship in the New Testament church(which we agree) and he says they don't even permit singing in the New Testament church - this is where we disagree.

Can have I have beasts and incense in my worship service? Sure if I can find some. Believe me, the way some people smell in church, would'nt mind some good incense.

Again, examples permit an action by us, as long as those examples are looked on as positive by the scriptures of course, and commands require that action of us.

So when I see the harps being used in heaven, I am permited to use the harps, but not required as I am not required to have the beasts or incense.

I will continue this in another post as this one is getting to huge.

IFBReformer

[ April 07, 2005, 05:04 PM: Message edited by: IfbReformer ]

Originally posted by rlvaughn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by IfbReformer:
I just finished a long study on music, but I am not a music historian - so if any of you are I would greatly appreciate your comments, or even constructive critisism of my new article on this subject.

Click to expand...

Hi, Larry. I'm going to jot down a few notes about your article "Should the New Testament Church use Instrumental Music in Worship?" Even though I don't agree with many of your conclusions, I think it is a good addition to the internet resources on the subject.

1. Go through the article carefully and correct all typos. They may not necessarily change your meaning, but they can be a distraction to many people. For example, I was in a meeting last week in which a consulting group was giving a preliminary report criticizing our district (they are to find problems and make recommendations to improve the way we do things). Because many of the people there have backgrounds in teaching, they almost couldn't get beyond the many typos to address the real substance of the report.
2. To me, I find it confusing to come to the chapter "Musical Instruments in New Testament Worship" and find you immediately skipping over this issue (which I think I'll be reading) and going to worship in heaven (which is a different thing). I realize that you are tieing these thoughts together - if used in heaven why not on earth. I guess maybe I find that a "letdown".
3. Consider some footnotes or references for things that are not specifically supported in the text. For example, in "So when did instruments finally come into the church?", where did you find the information that "harp was used by monks in monasteries very early in the church", "somewhere between the mid 7th and mid 8th century A.D. the organ was introduced into the church", or "In America, the cello, flute, clarinet, bassoon, and violin all started being used in worship during the late 1700's." Give references.
4. Consider revising this: "It is interesting to note that most attackers of using instruments in church will briefly address the scriptures - misapply their rule of exclusion, and then spend the majority of their articles quoting church fathers and historians about the non-instrumental position." While you may have found it true in the articles you've researched, I find it questionable (and believe you would be hard pressed to prove) that MOST of the articles favoring non-instrumental vocal worship are as deprived of scriptural argument as you present here. Maybe just changing "most" to "many" would make it less pejorative.

Thanks again for adding to the internet resources on the subject. Thanks for listening. </font>[/QUOTE]Thanks for the suggestions, I will take them under advisement.

IFBReformer

Originally posted by Bro. James Reed:
Here are a couple of writings from Primitive Baptist Elders refuting the use of musical instruments in the worship service.

Article by Elder David Pyles

Article by Elder Zack Guess

They are a bit lengthy, but they both give excellent biblical support for our view.

Bro. James

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One final area I wanted to address here in the article by Elder Guess is the argument from silence section:

"When God commands men to do anything specifically, everything else in the related category is excluded. For example: a) Bread and fruit of the vine are the elements God has ordained for the Lord's Supper, according to Matt 26:26-39. The specific divine requirement for these elements excludes everything else. No one would be foolish enough to insist upon adding meat and potatoes to the Lord's table because the New Testament doesn't expressly prohibit their use for this purpose. b) When God commanded the children of Israel to use a lamb for the Passover feast (Exodus 12:3), every other kind of animal was automatically excluded. God did not have to expressly mention all the animals that were not to be used; the kind specified excluded all others.

There are two kinds of commands in the Bible: specific and generic. For instance, Make thee an ark of gopher wood (Gen 6:14) is a specific command. God specified the wood, and that settled the question of the kind of wood. God did not say, "Thou shalt use no other kind of wood;" but the fact that God limited the wood to gopher wood forbade use of any other kind. Now if God had said, "Make thee an ark of wood," the use of any kind of wood would have met this generic command.

If the New Testament had simply said, "Make music," the commandment could have been complied with by making either vocal or instrumental music, or both. God, however, did not say that. He said sing, and that restricts the music to vocal music. The specification and limitation is as clear here as it was in the command to build an ark out of gopher wood."

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I completely agree with the author here that there are "two kinds of commands in the Bible: specific and generic".

I addressed this in my article:

Lets look at this example of Noah being commanded by God to use Gopher wood(Genesis 6:14). In this example, as in the example of the temple - these were not general commands. God did not just say, build an ark Noah. He was very specific down to the smallest detail. God did not just tell the Israelites to build a Tabernacle. He was very specific as to how this tabernacle should be built down to the smallest details. Sometimes God is very specific on some things, and when he is we must adhere down to the smallest detail.

In the New Testament, Paul gets very specific on subjects such as the qualifications of Pastors and Deacons, he is very specific on the husband wife relationship and divorce. He is very specific on the practice of Tongues. Christ is very specific in the Gospels as to how to discipline a brother in sin and Paul continues to exhort the churches to discipline disobedient brothers. In cases like these this law of exclusion could readily apply.

At other times more general commands are given, and in these we are given liberty as to how to fulfill those commands. This liberty ,however, is not boundless, for we can do nothing that conflicts with other commands when fulfilling certain general commands.

In the above passages, Paul is not addressing how to conduct official worship in the assembly. He is speaking of every day life actions, for we should worship God at all times, not just in the assembly. I think it speaks volumes that Paul never gave any order of service. He left this to the individual churches.

http://www.ifbreformation.org/Church_Music.aspx

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IFBReformer

I have a correction to make to one of my statements in a previous post:

"But when they come to examples of saints worshiping God in heaven with instruments, the non-intrumentalist says these examples do not command instruments in worship in the New Testament church(which we agree) and he says they don't even permit singing in the New Testament church - this is where we disagree."

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I meant "and he says they don't even permit intrumental worship"

IFBReformer

I want to make a general reply and will go into detail in the future if you wish.

I'm glad to see that your use of Revelation as a way to say that God desires worship with instruments has been answered. Anytime instruments are mentioned in the NT, if it isn't historical narrative, it is figurative—especially in Revelation, the chief characteristic of which is allegory.

One critical fact not revealed by your study is that not even the Jews used instruments in the synagogue. The music in the synagogal tradition was plainsong only, and the Early Church emulated that style. They did not shun instruments because of persecution or other unfavorable circumstances as you theorized.

As far as organized worship is concerned, instruments were relegated to the temple. They understood that when David organized the Levitical choirs and instrumentalists, they were intended to accompany temple worship, i.e. sacrifices.

God has just as much pleasure in the sound of the psaltery and harp as He does in the blood of bulls and goats.

None.


But just as the blood of bulls and goats is symbolic, so is the sound of the psaltery and harp.

Can have I have beasts and incense in my worship service? Sure if I can find some. Believe me, the way some people smell in church, would'nt mind some good incense.

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I didn't expect this from you, but you're showing here a more consistent theology, even if it is erroneous. Our CCM promoters here are probably cringing—the more rational ones anyway. I have asserted from the very beginning, that the Scriptures used to justify CCM (but in this case, merely instruments) will also be used to justify the use of incense and other shadows of the law in Christian worship. And you're doing just that.

Not sure what you meant by "using" beasts in worship, but it isn't a large step from where you're at to say one is permitted to sacrifice a dove in church.

[BTW]The argument that blood sacrifice is different than music has been tried and found wanting. Christ ended the temple. That means not only no animals, but also no priests, no priestly garments, no altars, no shewbread, no candlesticks, no incense.[/BTW]

Originally posted by IfbReformer:
Thanks for the suggestions, I will take them under advisement.

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Aaron's post made me think about something I left off. Larry, this I should have addressed in point no. 2 and failed to mention:

For the utility of the article, it would be good for you to address in more depth why that the musical instruments in heaven prove your position. Are they literal or figurative? Why should we take those passages literally? If they are not literal, do they still have the same strength for your argument?

Originally posted by Aaron:
I want to make a general reply and will go into detail in the future if you wish.

I'm glad to see that your use of Revelation as a way to say that God desires worship with instruments has been answered. Anytime instruments are mentioned in the NT, if it isn't historical narrative, it is figurative—especially in Revelation, the chief characteristic of which is allegory.

One critical fact not revealed by your study is that not even the Jews used instruments in the synagogue. The music in the synagogal tradition was plainsong only, and the Early Church emulated that style. They did not shun instruments because of persecution or other unfavorable circumstances as you theorized.

As far as organized worship is concerned, instruments were relegated to the temple. They understood that when David organized the Levitical choirs and instrumentalists, they were intended to accompany temple worship, i.e. sacrifices.

God has just as much pleasure in the sound of the psaltery and harp as He does in the blood of bulls and goats.

None.

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While the early Christians felt at liberty to express their enthusiasm in worship vocally, letters from church leaders warned against incorporating dance and instrumental accompaniment into their worship. Instrumental music, particularly that of the aulos, was strongly associated with pagan sacrificial rituals and worship. Pagan worshippers danced wildly to the erotic beating of the tambourine and enchanting melodies of the aulos. Dancing and rhythmic instrumental music were also common in public venues where drunk men gathered and behaved in a perverted manner. The church leaders sought to protect believers from the evil effects of this kind of music. Despite the historical use of instruments in the synagogue and the Jewish Temple, Clement of Alexandria made the following statement to the congregations in the Mediterranean area near the end of the second century.

For if people occupy their time with pipes and psalteries and choirs and dances and Egyptian clapping of hands, and such disorderly frivolities, they become quite immodest and intractable . . . for plainly such a banquet, as seems to me, is a theatre of drunkenness. For the apostle decrees that, "putting off the works of darkness, we should put on the armor of light, walking honestly as in the day, not spending our time in rioting and drunkenness, in chambering and wantonness." Let the pipe be resigned to the shepherds, and the aulos to the superstitious who are engrossed in idolatry. Such instruments are to be banished from our temperate banquet, being more suitable to beasts than men, and the more irrational portion of mankind.

The churches took these warnings seriously. It would be several centuries before instruments would again appear in Christian worship.

http://user.aol.com/erveigel/draft4.htm

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Rossi's Sacred Music

Salamone Rossi speaks of the spiritual inspiration his synagogue choral music:

"From the time that the Lord God first opened my ears and granted me the power to understand and to teach the science of music, I have used this wisdom to compose many songs... (more)

In 1623 the publishing house of Bragadini in Venice issued a collection that was the first of its kind, and it was destined to remain unique for over two hundred years. Hashirim Asher Lish'lomo (The Songs of Solomon)*, as this collection was called, included three to eight-voice part settings of of thirty-three psalms, hymns and prayers for the Sabbath and holiday. This work did not differ greatly from the conventions of early Baroque music; what made this collection so unique and innovative was the fact it was composed not of Latin motets for the church, but of Hebrew motets for the synagogue.

In order to understand better the significance of this publication, we must recall that the use of musical instruments in the synagogue had been prohibited for centuries — as a sign of mourning for the lost musical traditions of the great Temple that once stood in Jerusalem.

Furthermore, lest the ancient chanting modes become diluted, the Rabbis had zealously guarded against the introduction of any Gentile elements into the sacred music of the synagogue. Thus, while polyphonic music had been evolving in the western church for more than four centuries, Jewish worship music had remained basically monophonic, modal, improvised from a set of basic melodic formulas, and closely bound to the natural rhythms of the texts. Cantors were most often laymen drawn from a congregation that was generally well-acquainted with the Hebrew liturgy and its music.

http://www.jhom.com/topics/choir/rossi.htm

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Did the Jews use instruments in their synagogues? This is a debated topic even among Jews. There is no debate that instruments ceased to be used after 70 A.D. and destruction of the temple - this was order as an act of mourning for the destruction of the temple by Rabbis.

Some maintain the Rabbis had forbiden music a few centuries earlier, but again this debateable.

My question is, why would the early fathers rant against the Judizing of the their worship if the Jews did not use instruments in worship? Some might argue they are simply refering to temple worship - again this is a debatable point.

Did the early church learn plainsong from the Jewish synagogues? Again we do not know for sure.

Another important point that you can find in many Jewish articles is that synagogues were looked at as place of instruction more than a place worship. The Temple was the place seen as the place for worship.

Where is our place for worship today as the New Testament church? It in the assembly of believers, we are not restricted to any particular building or place as the Jews were.

By the way on the Revelation issue I am a Historic Premillennialist - this means I view Revelation a literal book. Might there be some imagery in this book? I do not say there is not, but on the whole I regard it as literal.

There is no reason to say the harps are not literal harps, the only reason you need to say that is to dismiss them from the argument.

Even so - we would all agree that allegories can be used in the Bible in a negative or postive sense, the positive sense would mean approval of course, the negative would mean something we should not do.

Even If these instances are allegories, are they positive or negative?(though I strongly believe they are not allegory.)

God has just as much pleasure in the sound of the psaltery and harp as He does in the blood of bulls and goats.

None.

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I would love to see New Testament Scripture that compares instrumental playing with the sacrifices of bulls and goats - the problem for you is you don't have any.

God has no pleasure in the harp ah?

"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues–last, because with them God's wrath is completed. And I saw what looked like a sea of glass mixed with fire and, standing beside the sea, those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and over the number of his name. They held harps given them by God and sang the song of Moses the servant of God and the song of the Lamb: 'Great and marvelous are your deeds, Lord God Almighty. Just and true are your ways, King of the ages'."
Revelation 15:1-3

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Oh, but this just an allegory, right, there were not really saints who had harps given them by God to sing to him. God really did not have pleasure in harps - right?

Allegory, or literal passages like this drive a steak through the heart of your position.

You have made brass statements that show God has no pleasure in instruments(such as the harp), but have shown no scripture(allegory or otherwise) to support such a position. I have.
Have a nice day.

IFBReformer

Originally posted by Aaron:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Can have I have beasts and incense in my worship service? Sure if I can find some. Believe me, the way some people smell in church, would'nt mind some good incense.

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I didn't expect this from you, but you're showing here a more consistent theology, even if it is erroneous. Our CCM promoters here are probably cringing—the more rational ones anyway. I have asserted from the very beginning, that the Scriptures used to justify CCM (but in this case, merely instruments) will also be used to justify the use of incense and other shadows of the law in Christian worship. And you're doing just that.

Not sure what you meant by "using" beasts in worship, but it isn't a large step from where you're at to say one is permitted to sacrifice a dove in church.

[BTW]The argument that blood sacrifice is different than music has been tried and found wanting. Christ ended the temple. That means not only no animals, but also no priests, no priestly garments, no altars, no shewbread, no candlesticks, no incense.[/BTW] </font>[/QUOTE]Actually we are not permitted to do any kind of animal or atonement sacrifices as Christ was the lamb offered once and for all - and that is not even in the context of these passages in Revelation. Show me animal sacrifices in Revelation? Where are they?

" 10By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all....
14For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified ...
18Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin."
Hebrews 10:10 & 14 & 18

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I think something that is greatly missed here that New Testament worship is not the formal worship we see in the Old Testament. Now before one of you jumps on this let me explain.

Anything regarding the sacrificial (or atonement)system must be done away with, as Christ is our one and only sacrifice.

What I am saying is that Paul gave no litergy, no order of service - there were strict orders of service(so to speak) in the Old Testament for worship.

I find it interesting that the same people who argue about how God is so strict as to how we worship him and they argue from the Old Testament that God is strict, then dismiss all the practices of that same Old Testament that show he was strict. Yes we agree the sacrifical and atonement items of are gone in the New Testament era, and I would argue that none of the Old Testament worship is required of the New Testament Church.

But is any of it permitted? Do we see anything in the New Testament that seems to indicate a strictness for New Testament worship as we see in the Old Testament Temple worship?

Can we include(things from the Old Testament) which do not conflict with commands for the New Testament church?

This all goes back to the disagreement between Luther and Calvin on this issue.


IFBReformer