Holy Hip-Hop?

There is nothing morally wrong with Christian rap. Now, there's everything MUSICALLY wrong with it, but that's not the same thing. If people enjoy Christian rap, then by all means, listen. Heaven knows it's far better than secular rap.

I have no problem with Christian rap as long as I don't have to hear it . I just find it funny that the Christian rappers are trying to keep the rap "image." They seem like they are gospel preachers in rap clothing. As I've said before, that isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I don't think it makes a credible rapper. A sincere Christian? Certainly, but not a true rapper.

 

Eric,

Huh? The only impression I get is that we are expressing how hidious sounding and unlistenable the stuff is for us. Not only Rap but also all of this "Death Metal", "Goth Metal", "Thrash Metal" and "Punk" stuff.

Thats called an "opinion", and theres nothing wrong with having one.

Nonsense. We are speaking of the ugliness of the noise in question...not the people.

You owe us an apology for that statement.

If they are simply expressing their personal opinion about whatever form of music they dont like, they have that right and there is nothing wrong with that.

It is not. To some on this thread all of that noise, not just the Rap, is horrible sounding noise to us. We dont want it going into our ears.

That is our opinion and we are entitled to it!

But the christian stuff sounds and even looks the same. We are not critcising the words...only the sound of the stuff. The dopey scratching and whatever those other noises are, the silly sounding non melodic and much too fast talking, the almost unlistenable rythmns, the hilarious posturing and gesturing.

We are not saying urban people are worthless or trash, we are not saying the stuff should be banned, we are not saying if someone likes it or does it they arent saved, we arent saying anything like that.

Only that WE CANT STAND THE SOUND OF IT.

Mike

 

And I'm sure there are some people who think that hell is like a long Nazi style march to stately and/or somber classical music.

This has been kind of true. Many Christians raps have come off as corny. This is why I have never really gotten to it. Cross Movement is very good, however, and another group many of you probably do not know (from NYC, but now disbanded), the Storytellers.
They may not have "the cred" as far as all the violence and stuff, but then neither do any other Christian "acts" or preachers. But they do get listened to, as evangelists.

 

Opinion? I'm sorry, but many of these statements sound quite dogmatic to me. Add to this, "IMHO - I think they left the "c" of the front of rap." Some have phrased it in ways that conveyed that it is their opinion. But not all, even as you reiterate how much "trash" or "noise" it is. Those are general sweeping judgments, not opinions. And I am somewhat offended, and feel some of you should offer an apology. Did you like it when Jeff Godwin or Terry Watkins call all rock and CCM "trash"? Those are strong, inflammatory words, and people should use them with a bit more caution.

And this is a cultural difference. You are not used to that stuff. You can voice not liking it without putting it down like that.
And fast words and scratching effects are a far cry from blaring overamplified heavy metal guitars and screaming. It least it has some form to it, though you may not be accusomed to it or think of it as "music" (though with all the sampling, and some new melodies added to some, that can be called music. And the gimmicks and posturing? (and whole "gangsta" hoodlum theme) Well, I don't care too much for that either, and criticize rap's fall into egotism/materialism, and then vioence 20 years ago, but I still don't have to put it down.

I was not accusing, but only cautioning people, that for one, that is kind of what the attitudes toward it sound like, and two, many do feel that way about urban culture, and how will they express it? As "trash" or "noise". How do I know which, off hand? I don't know what's in people's hearts, but this should be pointed out.

 

EricB,

Yes, but it should be easy to see that I mean TO...ME...it is trash. To me. I'm not saying everyone should be like me and consider it to be unlistenable noise, I'm just expressing my opinion that to ME it is unlistenable noise.

Here, let me say this right now....

I'm glad their are christians out there rapping for Jesus, and I'm sure God will bless their ministry and draw people to Himself through them.

(But please dont do it when I am within earshot. )

You quoted me...

And said...

I dont think so. Its a sound difference.(except the posturing of course.) Not a cultural difference. I was raised in a large city. And yet I play full time with one bluegrass band and part time with a 2nd one. I wasnt raised out in the country listeing to mandolins, banjos and dobros(my primary instrument, btw), yet its my favorite style of music. So it has nothing to do with culture...it has to do with the sound of rap. And all the posturing does come across as dopey and ridiculous to me.

And you know what? I know full well the jokes that "city folks" sometimes make about bluegrass music. It doesnt bother me a bit...because thats how it sounds to them. They are just expressing their opinion.

Yeah, its different. But with both I have a very small time frame of tolerence to it. With a matter of seconds I start getting irritated...if I stay within earshot of it in short order a headache starts, and I just have to somehow get away from it.

Like I said...I'm glad christian kids are doing it for Jesus. I just cant understand how people can go the way of rap...when music is out there to be involved in. I'm not really narrow minded at all regarding music. Although I play with these bluegrass groups, I've also played with a couple of praise and worship groups. We sort of blended together rock, jazz, blues, etc...and turned it into praise and worship. I love Celtic music. I'm not big on modern country, but I appreciate the talent of those involved. I dont have any interest at all in orchestral classical music...but I appreciate the talent of those musicians.

But I dont run screaming from the room if any of that is going on. Why? because at least its music.

But rap? I'm sorry, but to me it doesnt qualify. Every once in a while I've heard it called poetry. POETRY?

C'mon, if its poetry then speak normally like poets have always spoken!

Mike

 

And one other thing, btw.

Sometimes people who criticise us for slamming this rap noise and how the rap noise artists present themselves will bring up the "Jesus People" of the late 60's during the hippy years.

In an attempt to make us seem like hypocrits they will say "Gee, why was it OK for the hippies to get born again and and still play their hippy music and look like hippies, yet its not OK for these rappers to get born again and still rap and look the same way?

The hippies didnt look and act the same way.

Yes, they still wore jeans and yes they kept their hair long but they cleaned up. They didnt lurch around lewdly on stage while they played like they used to. Now, as christians, they simply stood there and played. They no longer stumbled around so stoned they could barely talk.

They still had long hair and jeans and didnt care for coats and ties but they were clearly different.

These rap noise artists seem to be going out of their way to continue to look and act as evil and dangerous and thuggish and goonish as they looked before they were born again.

The hippies still looked like hippies...but clearly they were cleaned up and changed hippies.

As a few others have noted...these rappers still look and act like goons and thugs.

Mike

 

Still, sometimes the way this is stated, with so much adamancy, (and no disclaimer that it is a personal opinion) it does sound like a universal judgment. Even in the second post, you continue: "These rap noise artists..." followed by a legitimate observation, sounds like a matter-of-fact statement more than an opinion.

Even within the "city" or "country", there are cultural differences. Like back before rap, the battle between white and black kids (and some of the white kids' parents) over "rock vs. disco".

I've never heard anyone here call it trash or noise. And if I did; I would think that was unfair, even though I am not a fan of it.

It's a NEW TYPE of poetry. a NEW ART FORM! It was [originally] very creative! But then this is how people acted when every other style or type of artform was new.
(It was more like poetry before the words became so fast, but that was because the style has to change so it won't get old. With faster words, you can squeeze in more to fit the rhythm. And what makes it poetry, is the fact that it IS talking, rather than singing. And as I have said, many raps (secular and Christian) have added harmonies melodies and even some singing int he background. In fact, "hip-hop" no longer refers to just "rap", but also the style of songs that sprang from it).

Not all of them. The Cross Movement is one that doesn't. And other acts may wear the baggy clothes, but then that ios the style, not only something thugs or rappers wear anymore. (My borther gives me his oversized jeans, and I can't stand them because I have to keep them frm falling off).
And those who condemn the Jesus Movement are not just talking about being clean or dirty, but even the long hair and clothing to them, was "no different"; and just as bad as today's thug clothing. (Especially because it was often their children doing that).

 

I don't we should ignore the fact that as music degenerates, the thing that is marginalized or abandoned altogether is the melody, and what gains predominance is the rhythm.

Rap is not a new art form. It's new to us, but this kind of thing has been seen before. Ecclesiastes 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

But then this is how people acted when every other style or type of artform was new.

This isn't true. What people usually react to is a degenerate "innovation." I think you made a poignant observation when you asserted that each innovation in music that we've observed has required the dishonor of parents to take hold. Who would know of Elvis or the Beatles today had the youth honored their parents half a century ago?

 

This is what I was saying about Cross Movement way back when this post started. I have been around KJ-52, Toby Mac, etc. but no one group has stood out as being so solid as Cross Movement. Like I said earlier, Cross Movement had a profoundly positive effect on my son.

[let me throw in my "two-cents music teacher POV"--rap is a poor excuse for "musical" composition. I truly believe that from a mere secular, constructive art point of view. It's only "redeeming" value is the message that kids can "relate" to, as my son so clearly told me in our conversations about Cross Movement .]

 

But since this is not being substituted for singing in church, you cannot say it is wrong because it has rhythm only, as if God condemns that.

Of course! Those Africans and their voodoo, right?
(Actually, it is noted that rap has existed in various forms in Afro-American music, before the present for arose. When I say it is "new"; I mean that in its present, and wellknown form, it was not before known to most.)

Great! So we would all sing stately marching style songs and waltzes only (perhaps "drink to me only with thine eyes" would be on the secular top 40 chart!), And perhaps "in honor of parents" they would also still shun other races (no interracial dating, integration, etc), and all of the other sins of the past as well. Then there would be no sin, and no judgment; 9-11 would not have happened (David Cloud, Dennis Corle, Falwell, Robertson, etc); we would have won more wars, etc. and be so much in God's favor! All everyone else's fault; they were all out to destroy us (younger generations, other races, music styles, european humanists, sexually immoral, gays, liberals, etc.)

 

From an old lady here: rap is a very degenerate from of an old form of fun music called a patter song. Gilbert and Sullivan have some wonderful patter songs in their operettas and Danny Kaye was a master at them.

The challenge of a patter song was to get all the syllables in time to the rhythm and get the tune squeezed in, too. The tunes were fairly repetitive -- out of necessity. A good patter song showed the talent of the writer as well as of the performer. If anyone here has seen the "Pirates of Penzance" done by Linda Ronstadt and team, the man who played the Major General did one of the best jobs I have ever seen or heard with his "Modern Major General".

Here is a verse. Try to do it fast and with rhythm and you will see how today's 'rap' falls far second to this and part of the "Nightmare Song" from Iolanthe which follows:

I am the very model of a modern major general;
I've information vegetable animal and mineral.
I know the kings of England and I quote the fights historical
From Marathon to Waterloo in order categorical.
I'm very good at integral and differential calculus,
I know the scientific names of beings animalculus;
In short in matters vegetable animal and mineral
I am the very model of a modern major general.

and, from Iolanthe

When you're lying awake with a dismal headache
And repose is taboo'd by anxiety,
I can see you may use any language you choose
To indulge in without impropriety.
For your brain is on fire and the bedclothes conspire
From usual slumber to plunder you.
First your counterpane goes and uncovers your toes,
Then your sheet slips demurely from under you.
The blanketing tickles; you feel like mixed pickles
So terribly sharp is the pricking
And you're hot and you're cross, and you tumble and toss
'Til there's nothing twist you and the ticking
Then the bedclothes all creep to the ground in a heap
And you pick 'em all up in a tangle...

and so it goes. For five full minutes, ending with a one-breath tongue-twister that defies the average tongue.

Patter songs were fun and challenging. I can still hear shadows of them in some of the 'better' rap, but the slamming beat of rap and the lack of finesse (which are matters of taste, I suppose) leave me 'turned off.'

As far as Christian music is concerned, I guess it is a matter of whether or not one is trying to 'explain' Christ to someone or actually worship Him. Rap certainly is not a way to worship, but if it helps explain to someone about Christ, then great.

 

Yeah,those are a lot like rap.
Also the spoken words in many R&B songs were a precursor to it. Like "Ike's Rap" (Isaac Hayes). Gil Scott Heron's "the Revolution Will be Televised" also.

Modern rap, it shopuld be mentioned, began really as an intermittent praise for the DJ's at parties. That's why rappers are called "MC's". They basically gave the message while the DJ's (who originally were the center of the show) played the records. Then, as the MC's began adding more and more of their own messages, they became the forefront of the parties.

 

Aaron: Rap is not a new art form. It's new to us, but this kind of thing has been seen before. Ecclesiastes 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

Eric: Of course! Those Africans and their voodoo, right?

That would be part of it, though not the whole story by any means. Every shamanistic religion in every part of the globe deifies the drum. Shamanism changes the glory of God into an image like four-footed beasts and creeping things, and all forms of idolatry deify the flesh and its perversions. Rap is no exception. In fact it's one of the lowest, most degenerate forms of music, if it can be called music at all, lacking as it does any kind of melody.

(Actually, it is noted that rap has existed in various forms in Afro-American music, before the present for arose. When I say it is "new"; I mean that in its present, and wellknown form, it was not before known to most.)

Told jya.

Aaron: This isn't true. What people usually react to is a degenerate "innovation." I think you made a poignant observation when you asserted that each innovation in music that we've observed has required the dishonor of parents to take hold. Who would know of Elvis or the Beatles today had the youth honored their parents half a century ago?[/b]

Eric: Great! So we would all sing stately marching style songs and waltzes only (perhaps "drink to me only with thine eyes" would be on the secular top 40 chart!), And perhaps "in honor of parents" they would also still shun other races (no interracial dating, integration, etc), and all of the other sins of the past as well. Then there would be no sin, and no judgment; 9-11 would not have happened (David Cloud, Dennis Corle, Falwell, Robertson, etc); we would have won more wars, etc. and be so much in God's favor! All everyone else's fault; they were all out to destroy us (younger generations, other races, music styles, european humanists, sexually immoral, gays, liberals, etc.)

Don't forget there would have been no need for God's plan of Redemption. I mean really, if you're going to go out into left field you might as well go all the way.

Though you attempt to marginalize the benefits and rewards of obedience, the commandment to honor ones parents is the first commandment with a promise, specifically that our days would be long upon the earth. So, yes. Society would be much more moral and stable were children generally more obedient. Dishonoring one's parents is to hate God, Rom. 1:29-1:30

 

And the European pagans, with their platonistic philosophy, whose worship was the total opposite, being stately and somber, (and included the elements that shaped later Western music) just as much "changed the glory of God into an image like four-footed beasts and creeping things, and all forms of idolatry deify the flesh and its perversions". This is the mistake all "classical/Western'-only" advocates keep making. You seem to think only non-European shamans worshipped demons. It's not the drum or the beat that made it idolatry. It was just something used for it.
I'm sure many Holocause surivors see the marching style used in many churches as base and degenerate!

I'm not marginalizing obedience. Once again, you try to manipulate it to "prove" that by divine mandate, all music should be classical/traditional (western) only, because that was what was used by our "godly forefathers". But you forget how they actually rebelled against their parents, who upheld even older, plainer styles (like your old argment about how instruments used to be banned altogether in church).

So in either case, we just cannot use any music, at all. All are associated with rebellion and paganism at some point int heir history!

 

Eric, what is your problem? People are giving their opinions about rap and you want to take it as a personal insult to you. As far as I am concerned, while technically rap may be music, I think it stinks and is trash. Having said that, and yes I am being judgemental (which is my right and duty as a Christian) I am judging the so-called music, not you as a person.

I think you need to eliminate some of your hangups. To bring race into this discussion is to denigrate all who disagree with you and to call them racists. Your sarcasm is misplaced.

 

Seeking, I don't think Eric was taking it personally. Maybe I am wrong, but the way I read his post was simply that all sorts of music has been used all sorts of ways through history.

It's sort of like trying to tell a geometry student that he cannot use circles because they are used in witchcraft!

My husband was raised as a Salvation Army kid. Both parents were officers in Australia. I cannot tell you the number of times I have hummed a showtune and he has sung words the Salvation Army put to it which are ENTIRELY different from the original and meant to explain about God or praise Him! The one that springs to mind right now is Lullaby of Broadway, an old Broadway song which the Salvation Army turned into a Christian song.

Because it formerly was a Broadway song, and even though that is how most people know it, should it then be avoided by Christians or such? Should the Salvation Army have refused to use the tune?

I think we have to realize that Eric has a valid point -- I know that even the waltz, when it was first introduced, was considered obscene because the man and woman were touching each other!

From what I have seen and heard, each style of music has many, many horrid examples, a few outstandingly good examples, and mostly just some average examples. So we can take and appreciate the good, mostly put up with the average, and do our best to stamp out the horrid...

 

Once again we see and hear the enormous SUBJECTIVITY of music. The moment we seek to attach absolutes to it we blow it up. (how many of you remember the old Operation game? Dogmatism on a subjective field like music is like touching the edges of that game...buzz...you lose! )

In light of my subjectivity thought I can also acknowledge that we will have all the posts we have seen in this thread. It is to be expected. There are no two people alike. There are no two exactly expressed opinions. (and never forget, you can't hear a tone of voice in a post...the gremlins help a little, but we are at a disadvantage on the net for truly "hearing" what someone is saying...duh)

I promise this is not "let's defend Eric B" day. I just wish to add my two cents worth and say that I too don't believe he was out of place or over-sensitive or inappropriate in his post above. Maybe I have a slight advantage from having engaged him in some personal emails, PMs, etc. I think he's OK, Seeking.

 

Though you do so on a regular basis, it's quite disingenuine to make up one's own facts when there are none to support one's premises. On what basis so you make such an incredible claim. What European pagan festival or rite could be considered stately or solemn? I think solemn is the term you're looking for. No one I know would say God desires a dark and gloomy demeanor in Christian worship.

The point I made was that by your own description of the situation, which overall isn't really accurate except for one key element, is your tacit acknowledgement that, generally speaking, a dishonor of one's parents is key to the acceptance of degenerate innovations in not just music, but all forms of communication from speech to dress. But it's not an acknowledgement of wrongdoing, you attempt to shine a bad light on the parents and present them as hypocritical and unreasonable and unworthy of honor for having any kind of standard at all. And you do that because of the self-evident fact that, if not for the rebellion of youth, rock music would not have taken hold as fast as it did, if it took hold at all.

But you can't escape God's judgment. To Him, to dishonor one's parents is to hate God.

 

And you are. Eric is offended that someone could judge one culture as more moral than another, as if the United States in 1776 was just as debauched and depraved and godless as the Aztecs and Incas in the 15th Century. His personal stake in it is the fact he's an African American, and he's incensed that anyone would point to Rock's African Voodoo roots as a deprecation of the form.

His beef is political correctness, nothing more. Why else bring up interracial dating in an allusion to honoring one's parents?

It's not like that at all. It's more like trying to tell an electronics student that he would be better served to use triangles instead of circles to represent certain AC concepts. Circles just aren't as useful.

No one hitherto had said no one should use drums because they're used in voodoo. That was a conclusion you jumped to. The argument was more about why shamans use drums, not why drums are evil. (I know of no one in my five years on this board who asserted that drums were evil.) The reason shamans use them is that they are better served by drums than by any other instruments. They care primarily for rhythms which they use in their attempts to induce alternate states of consciousness and ecstatic experiences. It supports my statement that as music degenerates, rhythm predominates.

Again, that's not the argument.

How one discerns between the good and the horrid is the question. Would you care to outline your criteria? What is good rock, and what is horrid rock, and why?

 

The way some of you are "giving" your "opinions" does sound like an insult on an entire people, though not one (me) in particular. You too go on to say "it stinks and is trash". Once again, that does not sound like an opinion, but a universal matter of fact, like "the sky is blue". Can't anyone respect someone else? It is NOT objective, at all. Else, it would be mitigated with "I feel...", or "my opinion is..." rather than using that only as a last ditch defensive retort when someone gets offended and calls you on it! You do not need to voice every thought that comes into your head (2 Cor.10:5). We all disagree with others on various points, but we would not have a civil discussion at all if Baptists and other groups, Pre-Trib and other groups, etc. were calling each other's beliefs trash. Calvinism vs. Arminianism, Catholicism vs. fundamentalism, evolution vs. creation and other debates often do sink to this level, and you see how heated they get (to the point that the latter forum had to be eliminated). So for people to think so low of rap that they can throw out rules of respectful disagreement that they use in other discussions shows something is not quite right. When someone attacks your culture like that (and so many conservatives are so sensitive about perceived "attacks" against their "culture"!) just think how offended you get, just like you get offended by my statements, as mitigated as I try to make them!

Everyone focuses on their RIGHTS, until the other side demands their "rights", then, it's "oh, [the Bible teaches] we shouldn't demand our rights". I see this all the time in political debates. It is all interrelated, which is WHY race comes up.
As for race, many people do think a beat was introduced from some cursed dark continent to destroy their godly culture. They see everyone' else's sin, and think that any sin in their land only comes from some outside corruption! I am NOT making it up! Just look at any anti-rock ministry page, and much of conservative political rhetoric, and you'll see this, though disguised to different extents. Just look at a statement right below yours affirming "superiority"; and I have hangups? THEY (the people in the past who first condemned the music) brought race into it; I'm only CAUTIONing people who may get swayed by biblical sounding authoritative rhetoric, and not realize where it originally comes from; not denigrating everyone here as racists (I clearly denied that).