Your abortion view

that's odd! when i click it i am directly sent to the intended page.

anyways, you can try going there manually by:

1. going to the BB mainpage.
2. click on the 2002 archive (the password is shown at the shortcut)
3. be sure to choose the "show topics from last year" at the options on the top right of the page. then press go.
4. go to the 46th page. the topic is there, entitled "Is Abortion Murder".

as to my viewpoints this is what i've written (if you are really into this topic, you may want to go there):

1. a live human being is composed of body, soul and spirit.

2. in other words, a human is alive only when it has both biological life (the body) and soul life (the soul).

3. in the mother, there is already the biological life!

4. the biological life being already present at the womb, what is left is God's imputation of soul to the body for it to become a human life. otherwise, it remains only as biological life and not human life.

5. God imputes the soul at the moment of birth, which will result to the child's first breath, just as death will result at the last breath, which is the point when the soul leaves the body. one good source of pattern for this is Adam. first, God formed Adam's body, giving him biological life. he only had his first breath, however, after God breath him his soul. the point is, the first breath is the determining factor to say that the soul was imputed by God to the body, just as the last breath is the determining factor to say that the soul left the body.

6. if life is to start at birth, then abortion cannot be considered murder, for human life is non-existent yet at the womb. what abortion destroys is the fetus which only has biological life, and not human life, the fetus having no soul yet. again, abortion destroys the biological life, but not human life, which is yet to exist at birth.

7. in this regard, abortion is not taking away of life, but of potential life. it is destroying a biological life which has the potential to be a human life, but it is not destruction of the human life.

if it's not yet too long, i've also written this:

quote:
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Ecclesiastes 3:1-2
1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
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in here King Solomon defines the range of life. while knowledgeable of the 9-month pre-birth period, he recognizes life to start at birth as it ends at death.

to quote another:


quote:
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Job 3:11 Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly?
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Job also recognizes that he cannot die prior to birth, for the reason, as implied, that there is no soul for an individual prior to birth.

thus, with the biblical definition of life starting at birth, there can be no murder prior to it.

Job 31:15 Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb?

Psalms 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother’s womb.

Isaiah 44:2 Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb,

Isaiah 49:1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.

Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

2 Kings 8:12 And Hazael said, Why weepeth my lord? And he answered, Because I know the evil that thou wilt do unto the children of Israel: their strong holds wilt thou set on fire, and their young men wilt thou slay with the sword, and wilt dash their children, and rip up their women with child.

Seems like there's a LOT of scripture (I didn't copy every single verse that uses or references the womb) that recognizes us while we're still in the womb.

Gina,

Blackbird is pro-life--proud of it--and will be preaching on it this Sunday!!

Your Southern Baptist preachin' buddy,
Blackbird

Blackbird, post it tomorrow!
Are your sermons recorded by any chance? I'd love the chance to get a copy of this one if they are! That goes for any of you who teach or preach on it. Let me know before you do and I'll send a blank tape or something. No, I can't tell you what the something option is, choose it at your own risk.
Gina

Originally posted by redwhitenblue:
My idea of being a pro-life activist is someone who takes action but not by means of marches or protests...

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Karen, I would suggest being open-minded to various methods. I think that there are many angles and many approaches needed to this problem, and God may have different places or methods for each of us. Realize that the folks fighting the battle on a different front are still fighting the battle...we should support each other wherever possible.

...Also, try to show the girl that there really is LIFE inside of her instead of making it sound like she's a murderer, if she sees that the baby is full of life and is just like her only small....she will have the hardest time with abortion.

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Agreed. However, the latest trend I am hearing from Pregnancy center workers around here is that increasing numbers of women do understand but selfishly just don't care. The "me-first" philosophy taken to its conclusion. Hence my comments above...God may be using different forms of ministry to reach people with different needs.

Hmm Jim, that's interesting since our centers have found it totally opposite. Plus, I see more anger than actual help going from the protesting to the woman than I do love.

karen

Originally posted by Don:
Seems like there's a LOT of scripture (I didn't copy every single verse that uses or references the womb) that recognizes us while we're still in the womb.

Click to expand...

sure there are a lot in the scriptures that talk about us while in the womb! but none would actually define when life begins.

where there's no life, there's no murder. and

Ecclesiastes 3:1-2
1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;

Click to expand...

and

Job 3:11 Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly?

Click to expand...

tells us that life starts at birth, not in the womb!

Originally posted by redwhitenblue:
Hmm Jim, that's interesting since our centers have found it totally opposite...

karen

Click to expand...

Karen, I don't doubt that you are seeing the opposite. I don't know why, maybe it's the area, or maybe it's just statistical probability of who we run into. But that really brings back my point, which is that it is a many-faceted problem; let's each work at it as God leads us. Why throw stones at those who are working at it with some other methods?

I know of some "hard-core" activists who have given practically everything they have for the cause, who scorn those of us who are involved in Pregnancey Care Centers as putting forth half-measure efforts that only scratch the surface. I disagree because I see children who are born, instead of killed, through the efforts.

But, it's not an "either/or" situation, so let's not shoot our own soldiers. Why bicker about whose tactics are right when we are all fighting for the same thing?

Originally posted by Aki:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Don:
Seems like there's a LOT of scripture (I didn't copy every single verse that uses or references the womb) that recognizes us while we're still in the womb.

Click to expand...

sure there are a lot in the scriptures that talk about us while in the womb! but none would actually define when life begins.

where there's no life, there's no murder. and

Ecclesiastes 3:1-2
1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;

Click to expand...

</font>[/QUOTE]Actually, I would state that this doesn't give a definition of when life starts, since it doesn't address miscarraiges (which were just as prevalent then as they are now, if not more so). No, if I were to attempt to apply that logic, I'd have a hard time explaining the rest of the passage, such as "a time to kill, and a time to heal." I cannot look at only one part of the passage, and apply a rule that cannot be applied to the rest of the passage.

More likely this passage is the one being echoed when we are told "it is appointed (laid away, reserved, awaiting) unto men once to die."

and

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Job 3:11 Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly?

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tells us that life starts at birth, not in the womb! </font>[/QUOTE]"Give up the ghost when I came out of the belly"? Doesn't that sound to you like he had the ghost when he came out of the belly, not received it as he came out?

Jim, I'm looking at this from the point of view of the girls who are pregnant and considering the abortions...if someone were in my face screaming at me and telling me I am a murderer, it would only cause anger and make me want to do it all the more just to spite them. For those who are actually bombing clinics and harming those involved, they no literally no better. You get better results when you use love as the tactic instead of full force rudeness.

karen

I guess I was confused about what you meant.

When you said:

"My idea of being a pro-life activist is someone who takes action but not by means of marches or protests"

I thought you meant:

"My idea of being a pro-life activist is someone who takes action but not by means of marches or protests"

I didn't realize that you actually meant:

"being rude and screaming in the face of a pregnant woman that she is a murderer". (parahrased)


I hope you can see the difference. I think that both methods (but not, as a practice, being rude and screaming in a woman's face) are necessary.

Don't forget, Jesus was loving beyone measure yet also chased the moneychangers out of the temple with a whip, overturning their tables, and also had some very hard words for some folks.

The love Jesus had for those people were much different than those calling girls murderers, remember Jesus already knew what was in the moneychangers hearts, we don't know what's in the young girls hearts considering abortion. I've actually been part of silent walks through town, but I also believe that if someone is willing to carry a sign, candle and walk to a courthouse or stand along side a major interstate road giving their silent yet bold opinion on this subject, they should also be willing to help a young girl in any manner needed. It's not our responsibility to sit back and depend on the local christian pregnancy centers to do that job, it's up to us as well.

karen

And yet, each of us have our own gifts and abilities, and must capitalize on them. Whereas Jim may be fully comfortable with a "silent march," he may not be comfortable trying to be a counselor in a Crisis Pregnancy Center. And where Karen is comfortable working in a CPC, someone else may be more comfortable working with senators, representatives, etc. to change the current laws.

"If any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth."

Thanks, Don.

Karen, I won't continue this discussion much further because I don't think that you are even considering what I am saying.

Does it occur to you that there are others besides yourself who work to save the unborn? does it occur to you that there are others who work more sacrificially than you or me?

Does it occur to you that God goves them a ministry according to His plan? Does it occur to you that there are some who do more one-on-one compassionate counseling than you do, and ALSO march in protests and demonstrations?

As I said, some of them would look with scorn at what you or I have done and criticize. You, on the other hand, criticize them because you choose a different approach. Neither is right. We should be grateful for each one who is working to save the unborn, because there are far too few of us as it is.