Should the church marry these two?

No! But those clauses are in other places throughout scripture---you're graspin' at straws, Sister Gina---you know that?? I believe you know you're wrong about all this marriage thing and you know it.

The late, great Corrie Ten Boom tells the story of now the Nazi's had caputed their family---the Captain raises the question to Caspter ten Boom---

"What does the Bible say about obeying those in authority, old man? Germany is your authority, isn't it??"

To which the aged godly ten Boom responds, "The Bible says that we are to honor the King! And in our case, its the Queen!"

Germany was not his authority---and when it comes time to obey the laws of authority verses the laws of God---I choose the Laws of God!
Your buddy,
Blackbird

 

Do you then require lost people who are married to be remarried after they are saved since their first marriage doesn't meet your conditions for true marriage?

 

No Brother Blackbird, I seriously believe that there is no person on this earth who can validate a commitment between God and man in any situation apart from baptism, which isn't validating it with God anyhow, it's a sign of what's been done ALREADY, just as a wedding ceremony is simply the affirmation made between a couple and God, for the benefit of others.
I truly believe that if a man and myself decided to spend the rest of our lives together, we could simply make that commitment to each other and then live our lives as a couple validly married in God's eyes, and forbidden from divorce by the same laws the bible gives regarding it.
So, while I don't believe I'm wrong, I'm open to being shown why I'm wrong. I haven't seen anything so far that has been offered to show how I'm wrong, except personal opinion and a quote about obeying the government, which has never once said a marriage isn't spiritually invalid if not given their approval. And...spiritually valid is what matters. The government recognizes marriage only for the benefit of tax benefits and such, they do not recognize it as a better moral situation than living together.
Gina

 

See?? What you're saying is this---if a man and woman "decided" and then made a committment to each other and then start living "our lives as a couple validly married in God's eyes"---then they are married in God's eyes---is that right?? Is that what you're saying??

Bonnie and Clyde---before they rob a bank---first of all had to (1) decide and then (2) commit and then (3) start

But they ran into the Texas Rangers, too---because in the Rangers "Eyes"----Bonnie and Clyde were "transgressors"----but yet they were fully committed!!

David and Bathsheba "committed" to each other---but yet that committment was a sin before Almighty God----just because there is a "committment" there doesn't mean you're free to do what it is you are "committed" to doing!!

 

Disagree! This couple, even tho planning to marry, should have separated as soon as they accepted Christ until they could have married. Even the appearance of evil ruins a testimony.

Repent... Go and sin no more.... sounds clear to me!

For others, the Bible says we are to follow the law of the land as long as it's not against God's law. Marriage and the govt. sanctioned paper that goes along with it is included. Those who live together as man and wife without a 'piece of paper' are sinning and their testimony is useless in my eyes. I would not allow my child to visit in the home of the most wonderful people if I knew they were not legally married nor would I socialize with them.

Diane

 

No. I am stating it is hypocritical for lost people to seek Marriage from a Church and I will not participate in these marriage ceremonies. I do not view their marriages as invalid but on shaky ground without Christ and believe it unwise for me to endorse it. Let me make it clear that I am just stating my own convictions regarding marrying people.

 

No. I am stating it is hypocritical for lost people to seek Marriage from a Church and I will not participate in these marriage ceremonies. I do not view their marriages as invalid but on shaky ground without Christ and believe it unwise for me to endorse it. Let me make it clear that I am just stating my own convictions regarding marrying people. </font>[/QUOTE]I think we're talking about two different things here. It is one thing for an unmarried lost couple to seek marriage FROM a Church IN a Church than for an umarried lost couple to ask a Pastor to marry them privately.

 

Gina, I'll reply. The Bible tells us to follow the laws and our govt. says for us to be legally married, we must have that piece of paper. Those who do not are living in continual sin.

Ephesians 5:3-20
3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. 8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light 9 (for the fruit of the Spirit* is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), 10 finding out what is acceptable to the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret.


Just as a wife is to submit to her husband as long as it does not break God's law, we are to submit to our laws unless they break God's law.

I know we have members who live together as husband and wife without a marriage certificate and I consider them unmarried and living in sin. Their testimony is ruined with me. Zilch. Even the woman caught in adultery was told to go and sin no more.

Another Biblical example....

John 4:16 Jesus said to her, "Go, call your husband, and come here." 17 The woman answered and said, "I have no husband." Jesus said to her, "You have well said, 'I have no husband,' 18 for you have had five husbands, and the one whom you now have is not your husband; in that you spoke truly."

Diane

 

The way I've been taught is this: God instituted marriage…not the state. The only reason the state started issuing Marriage Licenses was because some blacks and whites were wanting to marry after the War of Northern Aggression.

Now I was "chicken" to just stand before a preacher with our old family Bible with the records in front and have him say some words over us; so I eloped & did it thru the state of Texas...recorded in a book at the courthouse.

But the folks before me didn't go thru the system, but before God & family, perhaps & it's recorded in the family Bible, along with births, deaths, etc.

 

Thanks for explaining that. I believe we were on differant pages. I am so suspicious of people's motives in situations like the one you described earlier. I still could not do it (I am not saying you should not BUT stating my own personal convictions). People who are not pastors do not realize the tremendous strain pastors face in these situations. I would lean more to your 2nd solution you stated earlier. I would try of course to be polite but my view of covenant marriage would stop me from marrying lost people whether public or private. (NOTE: I am stating my convictions and not saying this is what you should do)

 

But Gina,
By your line of reasoning, what if two men and you decided to make that commitment?
What if you, your aunt, your male first cousin, and the man down the street?
Yes, indeed, the government historically has recognized one man, one woman, for life as better than any other definition of marriage.
There are three spheres God instituted: family, church, and government. Historically, govt in the U.S., however imperfectly, has tried to protect the other two.

Part of the reason for the govt having controls is for the protection of the family. Nonsupportive parents financially are held to account to some degree. There are property issues, inheritance issues, custody of children, many more issues.
When the couple first gets married, it is in my mind reasonable that the state helps determine that the couple is of an apppropriate age, not about to pass on infectious diseases, mentally competent to understand what they are doing, not under coercion, etc., etc.

I believe that grannygumbo's information is incorrect. Marriage licenses are not a post-Civil War Yankee idea. I have done genealogy long enough to know that. There were lots of requirements in medieval Germany, colonial U.S, you name it. The state recognized what the church did. A great deal in Europe because the state church was the recording arm of the state. Church registers recorded births, marriages, and deaths, and were official proof for courts.
In some frontier areas in the U.S. where judges and ministers were few, it is true that common-law marriage concepts developed. But a lot of legal things had to be shown physically over a long period of time, not just a mental attitude between a couple.

Gina, your line of reasoning seems logically to lead to a very nebulous and individualistic view of marriage that will not protect any children involved.

Karen

 

Dear granny,
I respectfully say that your information is incorrect. I just got back from Indiana, from visiting the world's second largest genealogy library. From the aisles of marriage records, yes, indeed, people did go through the system. One of my Baptist minister ancestors, Hiram Christie, born in KY ca. 1815, performed marriages all across KY, IN, and IL, with people standing in front of him with the old family Bible. And then he recorded it in the courthouse.

I have a number of family Bible records, some several hundred years old. And they are also officially recorded.
Colonial marriage records in this country are quite extensive. The govt simply relied on church register records to an extent it does not now.

Karen

 

I was talking about Marriage Licenses. Recording something at the courthouse is not the same thing as obtaining a license, I don't think. A license is asking permission to do something. Recording is just that…a record of something that happened.

The Bible says, “What God hath joined together…” …no mention of the state anywhere. If the state can give permission to marry, then it can also deny permission to marry.

Yep, the state has indeed taken the place of God in many areas of our lives, and the state-issued marriage licenses, birth certificates, death certificates, etc. have taken the place of the Family Bible. These things ought not be so! But alas~it is.

 

And I do apologize for being here in the Pastoral Ministries; sometimes I forget to read at the top which room I'm in.

 

This topic really stired my concern. My concern is that we are not obeying the intent of the word that Jesus spoke. Love each other.
Go back and read the reply from StephanM. The couch is fine, trust. It's up to them and not any one else. If someone is going to sin they will sin and vice versa.
Don't let the church dictate what they SEE in a person. You can't make a person righteous by locking them up!
Am I on a Baptist board here or what?

 

Jesus said, "Abstain from all appearances of evil."

Lost people hearing their testimony are going to wonder why they are still unmarried and living in the same house. Do you think THEY will think he's sleeping on the couch?

 

I Am Blessed 16
It was encouraging to read your reply!
And after reading your other posts, I would agree that it would strengthen their testimony as believers to others.
And you are right, just when we say we can hold our own, Satan knocks, louder than ever.

I guess my concern is, if they are councled well to rely on the Lord's stength and not their own, and when Satan knocks, let Jesus answer, does that not also build the type of character that God wants? Will that not also give them strength in their testimony to others in the future?
If their walk is true and they abstain, won't the body believe them?

I guess what I'm trying to say is, we need each other, whether offering a supporting hand, or having the faith to trust our friend with Christ.
After all, our outward appearance will reflect our inward commitment.
If a person is truely commited to Jesus, the Church should support and not dictate. IMHO, it's not where you lay, but do you sleep in peace.
Good topic! God Bless

 

Jesus said, "Abstain from all appearances of evil."

Lost people hearing their testimony are going to wonder why they are still unmarried and living in the same house. Do you think THEY will think he's sleeping on the couch? </font>[/QUOTE]Actually, Paul said that in 1 Thess. 5:22. I do not believe Paul was speaking about making sure that we don't look like we are doing evil things.

The Greek word translated "appearance" is listed in Strong's under G1491.

eidos
i'-dos
From G1492; a view, that is, form (literally or figuratively): - appearance, fashion, shape, sight.

Basically, Paul is telling the Thessalonians to avoid all forms of evil--an admonition not to sin.

(If any of you use MVs, then consult them as well; they express the intent of the author clearly.)

Besides, look at the example of Christ. He associated with prostitutes! I'm sure that didn't look very holy to many!

On this issue of the testimony...

I think sleeping on the couch would be the least of this couple's worries. Their testimony is already tarnished by:

A. Divorce

B. Sex outside of marriage

C. Children out of wedlock

Yes, I do realize that all these sins were pre-conversion and covered by the blood of Christ, but the non-Christian would not necessarily make such a distinction. Also, for the most part, the world couldn't care less about the situation. Why do the lost care if the man is sleeping on the couch or not?

Notwithstanding this, if the lost person were biblically savvy, he or she might use the sermon on the mount to attack the marriage itself as being adulterous. (I'm not saying that it is, but it's a possibility [cf. the recent threads on remarriage].)

 

StefanM says, "Actually Paul said that in 1Thess. 5:22 . . ."

Actually---from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21---friend, Jesus is talking! The Bible is "Jesus talking!"