When should a senior pastor be fired?

It was an imperative statement, so "your request is denied" still stands.

 

But an imperative isn't a request ... ... ... Still not sure what the point of the question was however.

 

Larry,

I feel that you are a good guy. We don't differ that much but we do disagree. We have kept people entertained for the last few days. I just feel we don't click on the primary role of the pastor. Actually, could you tell me where the word pastor is specifically used in the new testement? I would really love to see the word senior pastor in the Bible.

I would love to go back to the days where men did not worry about titles. When bro. Larry was the tilte of choice. When we just called em pasotrs.Or pastors!!!! Today I see people who are the only full-time staff at there church titling themselves senior pastor. I think that is a little silly.

I am the senior minister of students at my church. That is my new title. It sounds pretty cool.

Your job is very important but your call is know greater than anyone elses

 

Acts 20:17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

There was clearly a plurality of elders (pastors) at the church of Ephesus. We have here the evidence that these offices are the same with different names or functions. The word elder is used in verse 17. He commands them to take heed over all the flock, and to feed them. This is the job of a shepherd or a description of the work of a pastor. Then is used the title of "overseers" which is the same word translated elsewhere as bishop. These "offices" are one and the same. They describe the different functions of the same person--the pastor of the church.

From verse 17 it is evident that there was a pluraltity of pastors. From the epistles to Timothy, it is also evident that Timothy was the senior pastor at the church of Ephesus. He had been put in charge there.
Titus was the pastor at Crete. Apollos took over as Pastor at Corinth after Paul departed.

In the Book of Revelation Jesus wrote seven letters to the senior pastor (messenger) of seven churches. I would suppose that these would be the senior pastors.

Who are the other pastors and what would be their functions? The Bible doesn't specifically say. Is it wrong therefore, to say that some would be assistants, or youth, or have other specific ministries to help out the senior pastor in various ways. I don't think so at all. 1Cor.12 would bear this out with the example of the spiritual gifts that were given to the local church at that time. Each one had different gifts. They were encouraged to use the gifts that God had given them. Not everyone could be the "head."
To have different pastors functioning in different ministries all subordinate to the senior pastor is not unbiblical at all.
DHK

 

"Pastor" is found in passages such as Acts 20:28, 1 PEter 5:1-2, Eph 4:11, and others. The concept of pastor is sprinkled liberally throughout the NT. You previously asked about "senior pastor" in the Bible and I answered the the NT does not seem to conceive of a church with multiple pastors. The "Plurality of elders" is allowable, but certainly not demanded. There is no evidence that all the "elders" of a given church were on equal footing, and it seems likely that one elder was a little more "elder" than the rest. The concept of Sr. Pastor is clearly a biblical concept, and the extensions of the office of hte pastor to meet different needs is largely a 20th century phenomenon as churches grew larger and the needs necessitated more help. Most churches only have one pastor because of size.

Personally, I am not worried about titles. If people ask me, I tell them to call me Larry. I don't even call myself "Pastor" very often.

 

I am guessing Patrick would have a difficult time functioning within a totally staff-led church.

 

Larry,
you are right about eph 4:11. The other 2 passages does not say pastor. I did not see senior pastor anywhere. I just thought, I would point that out.

All about grace,

I would have a problem about a total staff led church. At some point ministers leave and could really mess a church up. The laity of thew church has to take on leadership roles. God did not intend for the church to be run by one person. You notice the plural elders.

 

Patrick,
Here are some things to consider:
We know that there was a plurality of elders or pastors at Ephesus for Paul calls them all together at Miletus in Acts 20:17.
We know that these were pastors from Acts 20:28 where the terms pastor, elder, and bishop, are used interchangeable.
We also know that Timothy was "the pastor" at Ephesus. Paul wrote two epistles directed specifically to him. Yet we know that he was the pastor (and thus senior pastor) at Epheus.
We also know that Ephesus was one of the churches that Jesus addressed in the Book of Revelation. His letter was addressed to the angel or messenger of the church at Ephesus. We believe this to be the pastor. The Bible does teach a plurality of elders. But why would Jesus address only one of them? Perhaps it is because he is the senior one. God does not condone a multi-headed monster in church administration. He is a God of order and not confusion. There may be many pastors where needed (in a larger church). But there must always be only one that is the head, the senior pastor so to speak. I firmly believe that the Scriptures teach this, by the examples that I have given.
DHK

 

Yes they do. The verb form is translated "Shepherd." The greek word group is poimen.

Again, as I said, that is because in teh first century there were not multiple staff churches with pastors for different functions. That is a modern day convention. Someone in the church has to be the head guy. It is impossible not to have one.

 

Senior Pastor just sounds a little business like to me. I am just an old country boy.


Larry, when should the pastor be fired??

 

Hrm bishops and elders same as pastors eh?

Who has been maybe a little sloppy reading the Greek raise your hands - I'll admit I have - but lets take a look

for a primer lets look at 1 Peter 2:25

- bishops and shepherds - geeee the words are different
- elders and pastors - geeee the words are different
- overseers and pastors - geee the words are different

A pastor is a gift that many in the congregation may share some apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors, some teachers

An elder with the gift of pastoring SHOULD be in charge - but in no ways does an elder hire or fire anyone - thats the congregations job.

 

I'll be willing to bet you have one.

Violation of the pastoral qualifications in 1 Tim 3 and Titus 1.

 

No one argues that the words are the same. They aren't. But when you read the NT, you see 1 Peter 5 and Acts 20 that the elder is to pastor and oversee. Elder describes who he is, a man of sobriety and maturity. Pastor and oversee describe what he does. They are descriptions of hte same office in the church.

What's he in charge of?

 

Larry,

We have a pastor. We don't have a senior pastor. We have a senior adult minister.

If the "senior" pastor is in charge of the church. Who can fire him? He is the big dog thru your thought process. Right? He is to lead. He is to hire and fire. So, who can fire him in your perfect "senior pastor" world?

 

The senior pastor is the guy who is the head pastor of the church. It is usually (if not always) the guy who does most of the preaching. Why is this difficult?

You already asked me who fires him, and I answerdd. He answers to the congregation. This is the way it works in most churches,and I bet it is the way it works practically in your church. I can't imagine this is new to you.

 

Oh good question Larry

He's in charge of pastoring
surprisingly there's another elder in charge of something else - and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on - assuming you have a large church

This means he gets to preach whatever he likes!
He gets to do visitations however he wants to!
He gets to do spiritual counselling anyway which way he pleases!
He gets to offer spiritual advice concerning temporal matters no matter how annoying or bossy he may seem - although that may get him fired

Plurality of elders Larry - not supposed to be one head elder - the pastoral elder is supposed to be the guy without a vote who makes sure the other elders dont fight - He's not supposed to be the elder that keeps Paul away from the church because that elder is the big dog and the one in charge!

Remember we created the office of pastor due to a shortage of people to be elders who could preach - ALL elders should preach. All elders should oversee. All elders should pastor - BUT there should be an elder specially gifted in each area - heading up that area - training others in that gift.

 

What is new is how you have such a tryanical view of the role of pastor. You want the pastor to have absolute authority and Only Christ has that.

Larry you are saying the pastor is the man. He is the big cheese. He is top dog. So, if your model was correct how could a church get rid of him. Tis is merely hypothetical. Taking your views and carrying them to the logical end.

 

Patrick, you are clearly out of line. After seven pages of my saying that I do not have a tyrannical view of the pastor, you continue to say that I do. I don't understand that, to be quite frank. How many times do I have to say that you are wrong about what I believe. I don't care whether you agree with me or not. But why make it up?

I have plainly said that the pastor is not a dictator, is not the absolute authority over Christ or the congregation. I have clearly said the congregation can fire him. Please be more careful with what people say. It is impossible to have a decent conversation this way.

And yet for some reason, you act like I haven't. I think I have been clear enough to dispel these notions you have about my view.

 

But there is, practically if not officially, one guy who is the senior pastor.

I don't think any of those things are necessarily true.

The Bible allows for plurality, but does not demand it. Practically, true plurality as usually used in impossible. There is always someone recognized as the head.

You won't find one verse of Scripture to support this, even if you do have a plurality. The only people you see voting in Scripture is the congregation, so far as I know.

No we didn't. God created the office of pastor. I am not sure where in the world you got your idea, but the office of pastor/overseer/elder is the same office. You are correct that "ALL elders should preach. All elders should oversee. All elders should pastor" but to jump from that to "there should be an elder specially gifted in each area - heading up that area - training others in that gift" has no support that I know of in Scripture. I think we need a serious revival of biblical church polity here.

 

Larry,

I just asked the question if the "senior pastor" is the big dog who in a church can fire him. You have made it clear he is to be the leader. He is the one in charge!!! He should hire and fire at will. Now, you are telling me he serves at the pleasure of thr church??