Theologians debate teachings behind 'Left Behind' novels

If I were a theologian and had to study the book and make a remark or two--I'd probably quit reading somewhere shortly after the copyright and all of those dates found on the flyleafs of the front pages before the first chapter!

 

Amen Brother!

That problem is not limited to Left Behind. Most people in this world believe a fiction rather than believing in JESUS CHRIST AS THEIR SAVIOR!

Bill

 

Well, I guess I'm in the minority. I have read all the "Left Behind" series and, for the most part, I have enjoyed them. Understand, I do not advocate preaching from them, but, if you keep in mind that they are fiction, I see no harm. I enjoy fiction and it is a pleasure not having to read cuss word after cuss word. I will not argue that the theology is questionable, but like I say, it ain't the Bible. I do, however, believe that the publisher is milking it for all it's worth. When I started out, I thought it would be a trilogy. Now, I see it is supposed to be a series of 12 books. If I had known this at the beginning I would not have read them at all. Now, I'm hooked. Well, at least I'm now starting book 10. Only two more to go after this one.

 

It is interesting to see these passages brought up again, particularly 2 Thess 2:1-3. This passage is significant when we ask the question, Why were the believers troubled? If the posttrib position was what they were taught, there was no reason for them to be troubled. They would have expected to be there. The only reason for their confusion and troubled spirit is if Paul had taught them a Pre-tribulation rapture. Someone comes along and says the DOL is already here; they are saying, Wait a second, Paul told us we would be gone first.

As for the restrainer, I am of the the opinion that it is the church. The church does ahve a salt and light influence on the world and does serve to restrain much evil.

 

Hello!

Let's discuss on 2 Thessalonians chapter 2.

First, Paul wrote the first epistle sent to the church of Thessalonica. The first epistle was talking about the coming of the Lord.

After the church Thessalonica received epistle from Paul. I believe Christians in the area of Thessalonica were discuss and rumor spread about the coming of the Lord. I am sure that Paul already heard the rumor from Christians about the coming of the Lord.

I am sure, if suppose I am in Paul's shoe. I would saying, "Oh NO! They misnderstand me what I was talking about!! I have to write another epistle again to send it to them, to explaint to them again on the coming of the Lord more clear!"

That is how, Paul wrote in 2 Thess 2:1, "Now we BESEECH you..."

Paul asked and plead them to pay attention to him more serious.

Why does Paul beseeches to them?

He beseeches them to pay attention to his teaching on the coming of the Lord, and our gathering together unto him.

Why, does Paul beseeches to them on the coming of the Lord?

2 Thess 2:2 - "That ye be not soon shaKen in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."

This verse 2 explains the reason why Paul beseeched them to pay attention to him about the coming of the Lord.

Many scholars saying, 'day of Christ' is mistranslation, it corrects - 'day of the Lord' in 2 Thess. 2:2.

I uses King James Version. It says, 'day of Christ'.

Many different versions of 2 Thess 2:2 saying, 'day of the Lord'.

KJV were translated from Textus Receptus - Greek Translation. It says, "day of Christos" it is clearly, says, "day of Christ" in Greek.

Many saying, day of Christ and day of the Lord both are different meaning, and different event.

Actually, both are synonymous.

Day of Christ and day of the Lord is second advent.

Notice, it says, "day of Christ IS AT HAND."

At hand means anytime, near, at present.

One another verse that mentioned 'at hand' in 2 Tim. 4:6 "For I am now ready to be offered, at the time of my departure is at hand."

Paul tells that, he is soon to be martyred, he knew that his death is near anytime. He was not yet dead that time he wrote second epistle of Timothy. He knew, he will died anytime very soon.

Now back to 2 Thess 2:2. My understanding of this verse 2 is talking about, Paul told them, not to be panic, trouble, worry, high hope, hear from any rumors that day of Christ is come anytime very soon(imminence).

2 Thess 2:2 is completely opposite of the pretribulation doctrine of imminence.

Christians in Thessalonica were already suffering persecutions and tribulations in 1 Thess 3:3-4.

2 Thess 2:2 was talking about the rumor on the coming of the Lord, they thought that Lord will come anytime very soon.

2 Thess 2:3 - Paul warned them, let NO man deceived them by any means(rumors, teaching) on the coming of the Lord.

Paul told us that, the gathering together will not come till two things must come to pass: falling away(apostasy), and the revealed of Antichrist.

Many saying, 'falling away' is the departure of the saints - rapture.

In Textus Receptus of 'falling away' of 2 Thess 2:3 says, 'apostasia'. It defines, depart from the faith.

Textus Receptus of 2 Thess 2:3 -'apostasia' does not support the idea meaning of rapture.

Paul tells us, that the gathering together will not come till we will see two things come to pass first: apostasy, and the revealed of Antichrist.

2 Thess 2:1-3 is very clearly telling us that the gathering together will not come till we will see apostasy first, and the revealed of Antichrist.

Church will face persecution and Antichrist first before the gathering together comes.

Have a nice day!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Hello!

Let's discuss on 2 Thessalonians chapter 2.

First, Paul wrote the first epistle sent to the church of Thessalonica. The first epistle was talking about the coming of the Lord.

After the church Thessalonica received epistle from Paul. I believe Christians in the area of Thessalonica were discuss and rumor spread about the coming of the Lord. I am sure that Paul already heard the rumor from Christians about the coming of the Lord.

I am sure, if suppose I am in Paul's shoe. I would saying, "Oh NO! They misnderstand me what I was talking about!! I have to write another epistle again to send it to them, to explaint to them again on the coming of the Lord more clear!"

That is how, Paul wrote in 2 Thess 2:1, "Now we BESEECH you..."

Paul asked and plead them to pay attention to him more serious.

Why does Paul beseeches to them?

He beseeches them to pay attention to his teaching on the coming of the Lord, and our gathering together unto him.

Why, does Paul beseeches to them on the coming of the Lord?

2 Thess 2:2 - "That ye be not soon shaKen in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."

This verse 2 explains the reason why Paul beseeched them to pay attention to him about the coming of the Lord.

Many scholars saying, 'day of Christ' is mistranslation, it corrects - 'day of the Lord' in 2 Thess. 2:2.

I uses King James Version. It says, 'day of Christ'.

Many different versions of 2 Thess 2:2 saying, 'day of the Lord'.

KJV were translated from Textus Receptus - Greek Translation. It says, "day of Christos" it is clearly, says, "day of Christ" in Greek.

Many saying, day of Christ and day of the Lord both are different meaning, and different event.

Actually, both are synonymous.

Day of Christ and day of the Lord is second advent.

Notice, it says, "day of Christ IS AT HAND."

At hand means anytime, near, at present.

One another verse that mentioned 'at hand' in 2 Tim. 4:6 "For I am now ready to be offered, at the time of my departure is at hand."

Paul tells that, he is soon to be martyred, he knew that his death is near anytime. He was not yet dead that time he wrote second epistle of Timothy. He knew, he will died anytime very soon.

Now back to 2 Thess 2:2. My understanding of this verse 2 is talking about, Paul told them, not to be panic, trouble, worry, high hope, hear from any rumors that day of Christ is come anytime very soon(imminence).

2 Thess 2:2 is completely opposite of the pretribulation doctrine of imminence.

Christians in Thessalonica were already suffering persecutions and tribulations in 1 Thess 3:3-4.

2 Thess 2:2 was talking about the rumor on the coming of the Lord, they thought that Lord will come anytime very soon.

2 Thess 2:3 - Paul warned them, let NO man deceived them by any means(rumors, teaching) on the coming of the Lord.

Paul told us that, the gathering together will not come till two things must come to pass: falling away(apostasy), and the revealed of Antichrist.

Many saying, 'falling away' is the departure of the saints - rapture.

In Textus Receptus of 'falling away' of 2 Thess 2:3 says, 'apostasia'. It defines, depart from the faith.

Textus Receptus of 2 Thess 2:3 -'apostasia' does not support the idea meaning of rapture.

Paul tells us, that the gathering together will not come till we will see two things come to pass first: apostasy, and the revealed of Antichrist.

2 Thess 2:1-3 is very clearly telling us that the gathering together will not come till we will see apostasy first, and the revealed of Antichrist.

Church will face persecution and Antichrist first before the gathering together comes.

Have a nice day!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Deafposttrib says:
2 Thess 2:3 - Paul warned them, let NO man deceived them by any means(rumors, teaching) on the coming of the Lord.

Paul told us that, the gathering together will not come till two things must come to pass: falling away(apostasy), and the revealed of Antichrist.

2 Timothy 4:2 replys:
You totally missed what Pastor Larry said. If the posttrib doctrine is correct, there never would have been any alarm. They would have expected to go through it. The fact is that they believed in a pretrib rapture. They thought they somehow missed it. That was the cause for their alarm.

BTW, if the rapture and the return of Christ are the same event, who populates the millenial kingdom of Christ?

 

Some say the Thessalonians were troubled about possibly missing the rapture and being in the tribulation. But the Thessalonians wouldn't be "shaken in mind, or be troubled" (2 Thessalonians 2:2) about being in persecutions and tribulation, for they were already patiently enduring both: "We ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure" (2 Thessalonians 1:4), but they would be shaken if the 2nd coming had supposedly already happened, because where was Jesus? And if the 2nd coming had already happened, then the resurrection must have already happened as well, and where were all their departed loved ones that Paul had promised them they would see again? (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) Those who spiritualized away the resurrection in Paul's day were destroying the faith of some (2 Timothy 2:18).

I don't believe the restrainer (2 Thessalonians 2:7-8) can be the church because many of us Christians will still be on the earth during the Antichrist’s rule (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13), and there are no Christians outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

Note that we see a single angel restraining Satan at the 2nd coming (Revelation 20:1-3).

Therefore, a single angel could be restraining the Antichrist.

I believe the ones "left" at the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:40, Zechariah 14:16) will be survivors of the heathen nations that came against Jerusalem, who will be forced to worship Jesus in the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-18), and whom we will rule "with a rod of iron" during that time (Revelation 2:26-29, 5:9-10, 20:4). They will be the ones who will populate the millennium.

 

I don't think this wills stand though. There were in tribulations. Their surprise was at being in the Tribulation. The resurrection is not really at issue in this passage. It takes some great flexibility to get it in.

The church will be gone. There are Christians outside the church. There are no "Christians" in the OT since that would be anachronous. They are believers for sure but they are outside the church. Those saved in the tribulation will be outside the church.

But these rebeliion people were killed at Armageddon at the end of hte tribulation. HOw do they survive to populate the earth during teh millennium?????

 

I don't believe Paul thought the Thessalonians would be "shaken in mind, or be troubled" (2 Thessalonians 2:2) about being in the tribulation, for he says: "We ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure" (2 Thessalonians 1:4).

I believe it is in that I believe "that day" in verse 3 of 2 Thessalonians 2 is the 2nd coming and rapture/resurrection, for it is "the day of Christ" in verse 2, which is the day of "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him" in verse 1.

I disagree. But I think it would take some great flexibility to get "the tribulation" into "the day of Christ."

Note that no scripture promises the church a rapture before the tribulation.

What scripture are you thinking of here? Doesn't the church include every believer? "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith" (Ephesians 4:4-5).

But how could we Christians who will be in the tribulation after the cross and after Pentecost (i.e. not OT) who have washed our "robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:14) and have "the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12) and are "in the Lord" (Revelation 14:13) not be in his body?

Based on what scripture?

Some say no unbelievers could be left at the 2nd coming because Revelation 19:21 says "the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse." But I believe this refers to the remnant of the "armies, gathered together to make war against him" (Revelation 19:19), and not to every last unbeliever on the earth.

I believe the ones "left" at the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:40, Zechariah 14:16) will be survivors of the heathen nations that came against Jerusalem, who will be forced to worship Jesus in the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-18), and whom we will rule "with a rod of iron" during that time (Revelation 2:26-29, 5:9-10, 20:4). They will be the ones who will populate the millennium.

 

posttrib:
I believe the ones "left" at the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:40, Zechariah 14:16) will be survivors of the heathen nations that came against Jerusalem, who will be forced to worship Jesus in the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-18), and whom we will rule "with a rod of iron" during that time (Revelation 2:26-29, 5:9-10, 20:4). They will be the ones who will populate the millennium.

Preach:
This is a position you have to take even though Christ will execute judgment upon all who do not obey the Gospel when He returns. After all is said and done, only believers will enter the kingdom. You must of necessity come up with another group that is not raptured upon His return to earth and is yet believers.

Note, no promise is made that the rapture is at the end of the tribulation.

Note, you cannot use passages in Revelation that speak of Christians to support your view that the church is in the tribulation. Those passages only teach that Christians exist during the tribulation. Why don't you explain how the church isn't mentioned between chapters 6-19?

 

They were in tribulation as all believers have been. They were not in The Tribulation, which was what I said. That is what was troubling them. See Thomas and Hiebert for two of several who defend this.

But here you have read yoru conclusion (that the resurrection and rapture are the same) into the text. It is not there. There is a resurrection at the rapture. There is also a resurrection after the rapture.

The DOL is both judgment and blessing. If you limit it in the NT to simply blessing, you have limited past the OT descriptions. Your other option is to make the day of Christ something other than the day of the Lord, something I am not convinced of.

But when the passages on the end times are put together, it is sufficiently clear to teach and preach. There is no verse that precludes it. Every verse can be soundly exegeted from this viewpoint.

Every believer in this age is in the church. Once the church is gone, they will not be in the church. They will probably be in the category of OT believers. We are one body, the church.

Because the church is gone. It would be anachronistic and counter productive to God’s plan to have the church in the tribulation since the church’s repentance has already been affected. That is the purpose of the tribulation, to bring Israel to repentance. Unless you haven’t repented, the tribulation serves no purpose. Therefore, “we Christians” will be gone before the tribulation.

This was almost identical to your previous paragraph which I disagreed with then. You haven’t convinced me yet . There are some who believe that there will be unsaved people entering the millennium; I am unconvinced that Scripture is properly read that way.

However, we will probably not reach agreement on this so I will leave it at that and consider us friends and brothers (who will be rejoicing in heaven during the tribulation ).

 

Note that it doesn't say "all." Some of those who came against Jerusalem will be "left" (Zechariah 14:16, compare Matthew 24:40).

Would Jesus need to force believers to come up to Jerusalem to worship him? (Zechariah 14:16-18) Would we need to rule over believers with a rod of iron? (Revelation 2:26-29)

Why? I believe all believers will be raptured.

Note that there is in Matthew 24:29-31.

"The Son of man coming...
and they shall gather together his elect" (Matthew 24:30-31).

"The coming of our Lord...
and by our gathering together unto him" (2 Thessalonians 2:1).

I don't believe that the scriptures teach a 3rd coming,
or a 2nd rapture.

Why not? Doesn't the church include every Christian? "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith" (Ephesians 4:4-5).

Do you agree that the church is mentioned in Revelation 19?

Note that it is also mentioned in Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4.

Note that it doesn't say that they were troubled by the tribulation.

I believe the Bible says the rapture and resurrection will both occur at the coming of Christ (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), and I believe there's no 3rd coming of Christ.

What verse are you thinking of here? I believe the only resurrection after the rapture will be the 2nd resurrection after the millennium (Revelation 20:5).

I agree, but I don't believe it must include the tribulation.

I believe they are the same.

Should we base our doctrine on what the scriptures teach or on what they don't preclude? The scriptures teach the 2nd coming of Christ and our gathering together unto him; they don't teach a pre-trib rapture or a 3rd coming of Christ.

I disagree. I believe the doctrine of a pre-trib rapture would require that the 2nd coming (Hebrews 9:28) be a 3rd coming, that the last trumpet (1 Corinthians 15:52) be the 9th from last (Revelation 8:6), and that the 1st resurrection (Revelation 20:4-6) be the 2nd, so that it would not really make sense of scripture.

Note that there are no longer any OT believers, for now all believers are after the cross and after Pentecost.

Note that no verse teaches this.

Again, how could the church be gone, how could we Christians who will be in the tribulation after the cross and after Pentecost (i.e. not OT) who have washed our "robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:14) and have "the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12) and are "in the Lord" (Revelation 14:13) not be in his body?

Why? I believe "a great multitude, which no man could number" of us Christians will be in the great tribulation (Revelation 7:9, 14) for the same reasons Christians have always gone through "much tribulation." "Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22). Note that the Greek word for "much" in Acts 14:22 is translated 59 times in the New Testament as "great." "And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience" (Romans 5:3). "That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation" (1 Thessalonians 3:3-4).

During the coming great tribulation the Lord will allow the enemy to try some of us to the limit, just as the enemy tried Job to the limit, not because he had done anything wrong, but to show that his love for God wasn't based on his material wealth, his family, or his health, but on the simple fact that God was his creator and sustainer, and had shown him great kindness (Job 2:10). Job did not sin when faced with every trial a man can face. He remained loyal to God unto the end.

I believe we are to look to the patient suffering of Job as our example: "Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience. Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy" (James 5:10-11). We Christians will need such patience in the coming tribulation: "Here is the patience and the faith of the saints" (Revelation 13:10). "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12-13).

Are the great multitude of us Christians in the tribulation "of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" (Revelation 7:9, 14) all Israel?

Okay.

I believe we will only be in heaven during the tribulation if we die. Note that no verse says the rapture is pre-trib or that it takes anyone any higher than the clouds.

[ August 24, 2002, 03:51 AM: Message edited by: postrib ]