Old Regular Baptist

Thank you, Brother Mike, for responding to my question. I was wondering what happened to all of the churches that had formerly lettered to the Original Mountain Liberty Association.

 

You know, your question brought to mind something I hadn't thought of in over 40 years. My mother and father were married by an Old Regular preacher by the name of Dewey Sexton back in the 1950's. I imagine he was old back then, and I don't remember ever meeting him. Hadn't thought of his name until you asked this question. Anyone know of him, were he was from, and what church he was in? Just curiosity more than anything, and some more knowledge of my own family history.

 

I knew him when he lived in Michigan. He and Elder Claude Brown established a church up there in Michigan but not sure which one, or they helped establish it. It was before I was a member of the church but Claude Brown was my uncle and I worked with him. I think Brother Dewey was a member of The Old Union Church of the Union Association, but not sure. I saw him several times after joining the church down here in Kentucky.

 

Blessed Hope Old Regular Baptist Church

The Blessed Hope Church of Jesus Christ of Old Regular Baptist (a member of the SGA) weekly services are now available on line at http://www.cumberlandbooks.com/bhservicesthis is being provided courtesy of Cumberland Books, they are currently working on a larger website for these churches but I don't think it is up yet.Note ,it is by no means trying to replace the local church, but there are a lot of people who want to hear our worship services, and also shut ins etc....Brother Mike

 

Bro. Mike

Thanks for posting this. I listened to a lot of it, enjoyed most of it. Listening to Guide Me O Thou Great Jehovah as I type.

Jeff Weaver
:applause:a hardshell type person.

 

Sermon and Songs

Bro Mike, If you don't mind, I'd like to post a link to this site for people that are looking at listening to the old time singing and preaching. I've been trying to post ones that I come across that are in line with the United Baptists.

 

post link

Dear Bethel Association, I see no problem with you posting a link to this site.There are old school churches which are much better at calling out the old time songs, the brother who is working on the website just wanted others to hear what church services are like in SGA of ORB, and be able to have somewhere to keep a history of our heritage, all the sermons are preached with out notes or being written out, the brothers preaching may have just started exercising their gift or may have been an Elder for many years,most of the songs come from the old school baptist faith but some may be of other orgins adapted by this church.I hope those listing will throw a mantle of charity over it , all are welcomed to establish links if it to be used for historical or relational or spirtual purposes . We are very open to the Primitives and the Uniteds. Brother Slone

 

Old Regular--Primitive Split

To answer a brothers question, no not all Regulars and all Primitives split mainly the appalachain associations, and this started not just over absolute predestination but a form of absolute predestination that made God the direct Author of Sin, and the doctrine of actual eternal vital union and two seedism. the atonement questions came a little later, When Seperates and Regulars merged they agreed that preaching that Christ tasted death for every man would be no bar to communion, this did not last and the Particular atoners and the general atoners started a fued, after all was said and done most old regulars held the view that the merit and worth of Christs blood was beyond human limitation but that its purpose was to redeem the church or the elect or believer, and no else, those familarwith the New Salems history will see that when Elder Hopkins took the general atonement side that several of the New Salem churches left including Joppa and Stone Coal, this break was soon cleared up by modfying Elder Hopkins statements and the break away churches returned, so in the New Salem there were three views of the atonement being advocated, Particular,Special,and a modified General view ,and this issue has never troubled them in a direct form, since.New Salem corresponded with associations with some of these different views , Mud River favored the particular view while old Friendship a modified general view, while the "traditional" view of the New Salem was that Christ made an atonement for all who now believe .who believed in ages past,who will through the working of Gods mighty power believe in the future, most still hold the atonement could save the whole world or a billion worlds if God purposed it to , but since he didn't it will reconcile and save all who come to him by Grace.The Regulars of the midwest had these same differing views in their associations on the atonement, see the "History of the Regular Baptist of Southern Illinois" by Coffey ;many of these associations became Primitive but some in the Midwest still call themselves Regular Baptist like the Little Zion association we claim some of their Elders just like some of the Primitives in Virginia claim ours.Our Thomas Hymnal (Elder E.D Thomas)came from the Regular Baptist of IL.IN regions. They divided with the Uniteds(not old uniteds) over missionary boards etc... They to my knowledge never got in to the disputes that tore the Mountain Old School Baptist asunder. I hope I have answered your question.Brother Slone P.S you may find out that the Regulars are primitives and the Primitives are regulars and both are United though some maybe Seperate.[a little baptist succsession]

 

I can't speak for all ORB in Appalachian or from Michigan to Fla., which consist of at least 6000 members or more and at least 400 to 500 churches. I do not know of any church which make up the New Salem, Union, Sardis, Old Friendship, Old Indian Bottom or probably the Elwood side of Indian Bottom, Philedelphia, Northern New Salem and I hope I haven't missed any. I don't know of a Preacher or Church that hold to a particular atonement. There of course are a brother here and there who I suspect does believe that but never ever preaches it in the stand. I have heard them hint that way pretty strong but stop short of going over the edge of which would bring trouble among us. Everyone I know of believes that "whosoever will" can be saved and that Jesus died for the sin of the World and not just a few. We believe a man must repent, believe and be baptized if he wants to be saved. We believe that God loves His whole creation and that the names in the Lambs Book of Life were "written" there according to the Bible that says those whose names are not found "written" in the Lambs Book of Life will not enter into that Holy City. We believe if a man goes to hell it will be at his own doing and he failed to repent. If it says the names were "written" then that means someone wrote them there. It also says if some don't overcome and stop what they are doing their names will be blotted out of the Lamb's Book of Life, that would be kinda rough on a particular atonement.

I think Bro Slone will acknowledge what I have posted to be true among us, or at least I think He will, or he may not even though he does not hold to that belief, or I don't think he does. Again, I love all my brethren and one thing for sure, here we only see in part but when we get to heaven we shall see clearly.

We don't believe that any man can save himself that it takes the blood of Christ to do that by Grace through faith. It is just we believe the faith comes first and its our faith. Our belief all comes down to "You MUST BELIEVE", or you will die in your sins and where He is you cannot come.

I might add, All of the United Baptist Churches I know of in Eastern Kentucky, West Virginia believe as we do. I don't know any of them that believe in particular atonement.

All the Primitive Baptist I know of in this area I believe to be Hyper-Primitive, I may be wrong but don't think so for I have talked to a lot of them and know most of their preachers locally. They believe if the roof in a mine begins to fall on them it was meant to be.

 

Sermons and Songs

Thanks Bro Mike. I do enjoy the lined out songs best. I'm glad others are recording the songs for "catching the tune" for others to enjoy. Lining out songs is a "lost art" in alot of the churches anymore.

I'm always glad to get some tunes I've not heard before. I definitely don't judge the style or talent but am glad to hear how a certain congregation sings them. I also like to hear tune variations to them as well.

I direct my family to what I find and we try to sing them in church. I also am glad that you are posting sermons. I believe there is a need for the old time way and the Internet is a great place to introduce people to it. I'm glad your church isn't afraid of "preserving the spirit" in a media format.

I will post the link on my website along with the other sites of sermons and songs.

David

 

Particular Atonement

Particular Atonement Doctrine did exist along side with other atonement views among the Old Regular Baptist and in the New Salem association.

Where did Sandlick Association come from? Where did Mates Creek come from? Answer New Salem.

Check the New Salem association minutes for that year that these associations pulled their letters after Elder N.T Hopkins general atonement sermon.
In it, he stated those not holding to the general view need not lay in their letters. Which, several of the corresponding associations did not and also several of New Salem's own churches.

As to the current position on the atonement in those associations{New Salem's correspondence}, they believe the benefits of the atonement are limited to the believer, not an universal atonement that will save all mankind like I saw posted on one website.

When I was in the NNS they (not all)preached that man must satisfy the wrath of God through his sufferings, among other erroneous things the atonement was preached to be an example of the way we should suffer this was tolerated for a long time.

I contended for a free salvation by the Grace of God, election by Grace and that according to the foreknowledge of God. I never read in the Bible where anyone's name has been added to the Book of Life {Rev 17:8} I have read where God would take away an individuals PART out of the book of life{ Rev 22:19}. I too believe that whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely just as long as he is the same whosoever will that the Spirit and Bride say ,Come. And let him that HEARETH say Come, And let him that is ATHIRST come. And whosoever will, let him come and take the water of life freely.

Note: if someone out there is thirsting after righteousness and they can hear the Spirit and Bride say come Matthew 5:6 states that you are already blessed and has promised you shall be filled.

Christ's atonement will cover every soul that would fain see his face. Those excluded from it exclude themselves and can lay no charge against election or predestination, they loved darkness rather than light. The article I wrote earlier was dealing with the splits among the Regulars in the late 19th century not New Salem currently. The majority of ministers in that correspondence are close to Bro. Bob's views and I would say he is a fair representative of their current line of theology some would be a bit more Calvinistic that Bro. Bob, I do know of many, that would be more Arminian than him, but in all fairness, No Regular Baptist are true Calvinist nor true Arminians, we maybe calvinistic on certain points of doctrine, or a brother may have arminian points on a subject but would not fully embrace all that system teaches.

The major differences between the Old Regulars I correspond with through are little association and Brother Bob corresponds with is how we believe on where life begins in the travail at the end or at the beginning{we are the beginning bunch}. Secondly, our correspondence would never publish a circular letter saying God doesn't know who he is going to save or preach that God doesn't know everything etc... I do not know where Brother Bob is at on all those issues, but all on that side do not believe that God is not all knowing, some believe he knows everything and has declared the end from the beginning, some favor the former.

This I know I have heard it with my own ears and have seen it with my own eyes. I have tried to keep this article informative seeing this is not a debate forum, sorry if I have caused an offence. You will find these historical facts in the Stone Coal church records so I was told by Elder Earl Lawson, the rest in the blue history and the Walter Acers collection of New Salem minutes.
Bro. Slone

 

Brother Slone,
You have it right as how it is now among the Associations you were discussing. What you stated before, left it as there were among us, different beliefs about the atonement and as I stated there may be a few, but it is kept to themselves. I sure hope you were not referring to my Circular Letter that is on my web site, for it plainly states that God always had a plan of Salvation. I still stand by what is in that Circular Letter, and you will find that Circular Letter in the Pikeville College Library and the Belfry, Kentucky Library. You have correctly stated to how I believe and I thank you for that. I know the Bible does not say anything about adding names to the Lamb's Book of Life, but it does state "having their names written in the Lamb's Book of Life", which plainly says the names were "written" in the book. I think if they were not "written" in the book, it would of stated "the names in the book", but who knows, I sure glad they were "written" there.
The times of struggle you speak of, about atonement has went on since before they ever came to this country and will continue until we die. The Calvinist theology was not as strong on atonement, as some are on here today.
I only answered, because you were discussing all the Associations and members of who I am a part of, and wanted it to be known that, of course there has been debates and troubles over "atonement" in the past and as you know better than I, it still continues, but we as a whole, believe that Jesus died for all.

For the record, I do believe in an "all knowing" God, but believe just because He knows does not mean He decrees.

Also Bro. Slone, I failed to tell you that Brother Joe Evans passed away last year or year before. You mentioned him once.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.


If you did mean my Circular Letter on my web site, please inform me what you disagree with. Thank you,
BBob

 

Brother Mike:

Do you believe in the doctrine of irressible grace? Can a person turn God's call away? Or what some people call the Light & Life doctrine as the Bethal Assoication practices? That a person cannot repent until God shines His light upon him/her?

Forgive me if you have stated your views on these subjects before, but since this thread is 44 pages long, I thought I would just ask you.

p.s. I support your endeavor to post your churches' meetings online.

 

To add to that, those associations became either Missionary or Southern Baptist. There aren't any United Baptist associations in the Illinois area that I know of now. The associations in Indiana are tied into churches in KY.

David

 

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Old Regular Baptist views

Brother Bob, I have never read your circular letter, but I may try to find it tonite. I had reference to a predestinarian web site that stated the Burning Springs and Old Regulars believed all men would be saved and go to heaven, we need to be careful how we apply words like every and all, as most Greek scholars will tell you they are generally used in a restrictive sense, the same with the word world, there are several websites that deal with those issues.I will give some references to my previous statements concerning historical views of the New Salem on the atonement and like issues, this is so the readers will see, that I am not making things up or trying to give a false history of this association:New Salem association 1891 item 19 "Resolved that we the New Salem Association, cannot endorse the sentiment teaching absolute predestination of all things,HELD AND PREACHED BY SOME OF OUR BRETHERN,WHICH DECLARES GOD to be the AUTHOR OF SIN,or that he influences men there to". New Salem assn. 1892 "Resolved , that we drop the nineteenth item of our last years minutes and advise our churches to cleanse,or abstain from the doctrine that teaches that God is the Aurthor of sin,or that he influences men thereto, and the doctrine of ARMINIANISM that claims the work of the creature (man)to be essential to eternal salvation." note: this is the year they added OLD to Regular Baptist( I asked the NNS to reprint this item as they had adopted the orders etc ..of the New Salem , they told me that was the old brothers that they are the NOW old regulars with their statement I have no quarrel). From History: "Throughout the second half of the 19th century, New Salem fellowships apparently held much closer to a doctrine of limited atonement than to one of general atonement.[ Howard Dorgan ] New Salem Association 1912"...........We never have agreed in full with the PARTICULAR BAPTIST of England on the one hand and the General Baptist on the other..................opposed to the fatalism of the Particular Baptist and the Arminianism of the General Baptist.Note the above is very true of the Sovereign Grace Association stance on those issues, we would reprint them in our minutes , Would the Sardis Assn. reprint them? Would the Union preaching Brothers abide by the above statements concerning doctrine or would they like the Northern New Salem reject as being the old Brothers? In love Brother Mike

 

I would endorse them very quickly. The only thing I see any problem with at all is I don't think Belief is works. I still find no fault whatsoever with that order and Sardis Association believes that way. Again, we believe that faith is not works and you must believe. The Sardis and the others as far as I know do not hold to Particular Atonement and neither do any of us hold to all men being saved either. We do believe that Jesus died for all but you must believe to receive the blood. I mean I posted several scriptures last night where He died for all but you must believe to receive the "gift".

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


I really think the Northern New Salem believes the same as we do. I will agree that we have some young preachers and so do most that all they do is tell a sad story and thats it. I sink in my seat all the time over that but I don't believe in absolute predestination and think the Sardis is the one who brought it to the New Salem for they would not do any work that year and didn't receive any letters until they got their own house in order and in 1893 they accepted us and didn't even mention Mate's Creek.
Now the works department, none that I know of ,thinks a man can work out his salvation, because we don't consider faith as works and from that point God leads us and we follow because we want to be saved. I don't know if you can accept that or not, but that is where I can not go any farther, that you are either in or out before you even had a chance, of which I don't believe.

I listen to two of your sermons and couldn't find anything wrong but did notice that after preaching "repentance is required at the hands of all men", you spent the next 15 minutes putting a clause to it. I also noticed that you put a lot of effort into telling men to repent and I have to be honest, the thought came to my mind about whether you believed they could or not. Not to offend you at all but that is where I see the trouble of going too far with the predestination. You mentioned an "all knowing God" and that is what I believe but that makes predestination easy to explain. God knows who will believe so He knows who to draw, to predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, to justify (by the blood of Christ), and to Glorify. We are waiting on our Glorification but God has already saw it, so yes, He does know the beginning from the end for He is everylasting to everylasting. He can work in time or outside of time. Time is for man, not God. :thumbs:

This is when the Sardis was having trouble with Hyper-Calvinism about the same time as you mentioned the New Salem was having problems.

NOW, BE IT KNOWN, in the presence of these witnesses and before Almighty God, the Supreme Judge of the World and all our actions:

First: That we do not object to the outline of Doctrine as we understand it to have been written in the different Constitutions of the Churches composing the Mates Creek Association.

Second: That while we believe no one independent of God's Almighty Power can be instrumental in the salvation of his soul, we do believe that man is responsible for his deeds, which thing we understand our Mates Creek Brethren to deny.

Third: That we object to the Doctrine held by our Mates Creek Brethren that man as a created being is compelled by God Eternal in all things to do just as he does, whether it be good or evil.
Fourth: We believe that man in the Creation was given limited power and that good and evil were set before him with the possibility of his choosing either. Therefore, we believe that when Adam par­took of evil he did so not by compulsion but by choice, which thing we also understand our Mates Creek Brethren to deny.

Therefore, these things being essential in regard to the prosperity of the Church, and as members holding these different views cannot possibly live in true Brotherly love within the same Association, we thought it better both for our Absolute Predestination Brethren and ourselves that we organize a separate Association. Not that we object to the original Doctrine of the Mates Creek Association but that we believe that our Predestination Brethren have departed from these same Doctrines.

But to them and all others be it understood, with God as our Judge, that it is with malice toward none that we withdraw from the Mates Creek Association and adopt the following Constitution for our Church government, together with the foregoing Articles of Faith for each of the Churches composing our Body:

 

Dear Virginia ORB I am not sure I understand your question, If you are asking me do I think God saves a man against his will, no he just gives them a new will and a to do after his own good pleasure, Grace will not be resisted by the elect(one who believes according to the working of Gods mighty power) and the Fathers call[drawing] is effectual ,{John 6:44]psalms cx.3] everyone he draws he will raise up at the last day, but if your asking can people resist the Holy Ghost ,yes, LooK at Hebrews 10:38" Now the just shall live by faith:but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.39 vs"But we are not of them(2 classes elect and non -elect(unbelievers)]who draw back unto perdition:but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." also look at 2Thess 2:10, As to the Bethel Association what is it, you think they believe? Secondly have you ever heard a brother from the Bethel Preach? Most people that believe the Bible believe that Light and Life are the same, read St. John chapter one if you are saying that light manifested is salvation then the whole world would be saved, "And this is the condemnation,that light is come into the world,and men loved darkness......John 3:19 but as you see light brings condemnation for those who love darkness but what is Light to those that believe ?you answer, what is the light of life that is given,? in him was life;and the life was the light of men,( is light life?} read the circular letters from the Bethel then get the pre- divide letters from the Union , check to find out which side the court of law ruled to be the original Old Regulars you may be shocked. Most people never knew what these brothers preached ,they believed that salvation was by grace, and that if one recieves the Spirit one recieves life and is quickened or begotten recieves life(they that hear shall live) then by the Holy Ghosts operation one believes ,repents,mourns over sins is justified by the blood and by grace and by faith and by the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ,is eternally justified) begotting before a birth, believing before being sealed but life first then action, dead babies do not cry, dead men do not thirst and hunger, "I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, live; yea, I said unto thee when tho wast in thy blood, LIVE" Eph 2nd chapter, look up, begot , begotten ,when Zion travailed, John 5:25 Galatains 3:2 and maybe we can meet again sometime and look at all these things and find out why we are such a divided people and it just might be your generation that God will use to unite the Old School Baptist. Brother Slone

 

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We believe that repentence is on one hand commanded of God, yet on the other hand granted and a gift of God ;mans inability to repent does not lie with election it lies with his own sinfullness. and love of darkness which keeps him out of the light which would reprove his deeds, nevertheless we in meekness instucting those who oppose themselves that peradventure God would grant them repentence....."But if our gospel be hid,it is hid to them that ae lost'' The website is not mine ,I do not like to hear myself on tape or CD, and {the hands of every man] statement is not really the best way to preach ,the scripture does not read that way, it is just a habit among ORB's we know God will not recieve an offering at mans hand, we have more of them, I am just as bad as the next ORB, spend eternity,]{ We sometimes have trouble expressing ourselves most of the time when I get to Blessed Hope I have already traveled several hundred miles, and I am very tired, throat sore, yet trusting that my maker may give me something for Gods Little Children. I had very mixed feelings about the website at first but at this time I have already heard from people in VA all the way to California, almost all positive, there was some no hellers who got on the comment side that were not positive about us.I was surprised that Primitive Baptist and United Baptist and Old Regulars of associations not in correspondence with us ,have let us know that they hope Cumberland Books will continue to add to the site.On Doctrine of Regular Baptist ,I try to keep it in context, with this history thread for information, I have also tried when others were not around to give both sides of a split even if I favor one view over the other, and thats very hard for me, because I have lived so close to these things, and have been attacked, lied on, etc... but have loved these people and still love them on all sides, and just because I am not in fellowship with some of them doesn 't mean they are my enemies, I had to stand for what I believe the Word of God states above everything else. Howard Dorgan stated that there had been.". .numerous old regular splits over the last century and a half,the resultant
sides have never been all that far apart in either doctrine or practice.Although old Indian Bottom.New Salem, Thorton Union,and Bethel may not correspond with each othr,it is not difficult to see that they are all of the same Old Regular Baptist tradition." old regular