Notes on the Principles and Practices of Baptist Churches, Pt1

Squire Robertsson · Nov 14, 2005

Over the last few months, I have come to sense some of y'all are ignorant of the roots many IF and Historic Baptist Churches. I put this down to the fact that the SBC sector is large enough (much like the pre-1965 US economy) to be fairly self-contained. Thus, the consternation I sense when someone like myself is less than enthusiastic about the SBC.

The following is from Dr. Francis Wayland's book of the above title printed in 1857:

Though the Triennial Convention was thus restricted to its appropriate object, the work of Foreign Missions, its representative character remained. It was, by the community at large, considered to be the grand meeting of the Baptist denomination in the United States, a sort of General Assembly, to which all our affairs were brought for decision. Hence, if for any cause it was deemed desirable to commit the whole Baptist membership to any course of action, this was considered the proper place in which to make the attempt. I well remember that on one occasion, a series of resolutions was introduced, of which the only object was to express our approbation of General Jackson's measures for the removal of the Cherokees. Hence, though missions were the ostensible object for which we assembled, missions were frequently the last thing thought of. Propositions for amendments to the Constitution, of course, occupied a considerable part of the session. Then the attempts of brethren from the East or West, the North or the South, to procure an expression of the denomination in favor of this matter or that, totally unconnected with missions, must be disposed of. When any of these exciting questions were discussed, the house would be filled to overflowing; but when nothing but missions was under consideration there was room enough, and to spare. A large part of the time of the meeting was thus wasted in angry altercation. Hence this attempt at representation, intended to unite us all as one denomination, proved the source of manifold alienation, and, I fear, injured the very cause of missions which it was its avowed object to promote.

— pp. 185-186
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I will be posting further snips dealing with the question of representation as Dr. Wayland put it in other threads.

OleSchoolBaptist · Nov 15, 2005

What are you insinuating? Maybe no one has bitten because they are like me scratching their heads wondering what you are trying to say.

Squire Robertsson · Nov 15, 2005

I mean we consider ourselves "Independent" for good reason. And I mean our view of SBC churches as less than fully independent and autonomous has a historic basis. In other words, the position didn't spring forth de novo two generations ago. Nor did the position come from any Primitive, Landmark, Missionary, et al. Baptist influence.

I believe in Pt. 2 Dr. Wayland explains why he thinks Baptist Churches cannot be represented.

Hardsheller · Nov 29, 2005

The Book you quote may have been printed in 1857 but Dr. Wayland is referring to a meeting that apparently was held during the time when Andrew Jackson was President of the USA. That would have been somewhere between 1829-1837, My guess would have it being in 1831, which would have predated the formation of the SBC by almost 15 years.

Regardless of the "Independent" distaste for Associations and Conventions, the associations and conventions represented the mainstream of Baptist History for over 300 years and it is the "Independents" who moved outside the historical precedent and tradition.

rsr · Nov 30, 2005

Originally posted by Hardsheller:
That would have been somewhere between 1829-1837, My guess would have it being in 1831, which would have predated the formation of the SBC by almost 15 years.
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Wayland was talking about the Triennial Convention (which included both northern and southern churches). The convention was renamed the American Baptist Missionary Union after the split with the Southern Baptists in 1845.

Squire Robertsson · Nov 30, 2005

Hardsheller, could you please show me regular Northern Baptist associations beyond the the State level between the breakup of the Triennial Convention and the post 1900 formation of the Northern Baptist Convention. As far as I know there were none. A good example of how a traditional Northern Baptist State Association operate(s)(d) is the Minnesota Baptist Association. I'll let Dr. Bob speak to the ins and outs of the group.

We did organize ourselves functionally in support of various ministries, e.g. The Northern Baptist Home and Foriegn Missionary Society, The Northern Baptist Bible and Publication Society, ect. But these were organizations of like minded individuals not of churchs. Yes, a church may or may not have one or more of these in its budget.

What I see here is a SBC centeric view of the Baptist Galaxy. We Northern Baptists operated on differnet organizing principles. But, we were bound together by a rope of sand.

Hardsheller · Nov 30, 2005

Ok, I misunderstood your implications. I thought you were saying that "Independent" Northern Baptist Churches eschewed ALL associations and conventions after the breakup of the Triennial Convention.

As far as your example of the Minnesota Baptist Association goes - From what I could learn on the web site they are not far removed from what most SBC State Conventions are like.

We SBC'ers are not blind to the dangers of Convention entanglements and are seeing an erosion of allegiance and trust between the churches and the state conventions and the national convention. This may well push SBC Churches back to the historical Associational model which is our true Baptist Heritage.

rlvaughn · Nov 30, 2005

Originally posted by Squire Robertsson:
...regular Northern Baptist associations beyond the the State level between the breakup of the Triennial Convention and the post 1900 formation of the Northern Baptist Convention. As far as I know there were none.
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I agree. The Baptists in the north followed the society method, while the suthrens locked into the convention method. Before 1907 there was no such animal in the north. I think even the Triennial Convention (not its real name) was not a convention on the order of the SBC.

What I see here is a SBC centeric view of the Baptist Galaxy.
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Also not being SBC Squire, I understand your frustration. But the SBC numerically is such a majority in the US, I suppose it's hard for many to not think that way. Even many who are no longer SBC used to be.

rsr · Nov 30, 2005

Originally posted by rlvaughn:
I think even the Triennial Convention (not its real name) was not a convention on the order of the SBC.
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The most prominent example of societal methodology in American Baptist history was the Triennial Convention organized in 1814 of which Baptists in the South were a part until the forming of the Southern Baptist Convention in 1845. Proponents of both the societal model and the associational model had influence in the Triennial Convention. And, even though an associational methodology was utilized for a few years, it was officially rejected in 1826 in favor of the Triennial Convention returning to a society solely for foreign missions.
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— David E. Hankins, The Relation of the Southern Baptist Convention to Its Entities

(The Triennial Convention's official name was the General Missionary Convention of the Baptist Denomination in the United States of America for Foreign Missions, which explains why almost everyone refers to it as the Triennial Convention.)

Squire Robertsson · Dec 1, 2005

this is the nub of the matter. Many of us who through our spiritual DNA left the Northern Baptist Convention in 1947 with the formation of the CBA (I'll not attempt to speak for those on the GARBC side of the family. They left the NBC in the '30s and formed the GARBC in '32.) have returned to a societal model for our inter-church relations.

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