They do not deserve a State

KenH · Jun 11, 2005

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
Ken, no flaming please.

Jerusalem had walls, but that wasn't the question.
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LadyEagle · Jun 11, 2005

Joseph, I visited Mr. Eid's human rights site and it is woefully pro-Palestinian. So, once again, we will have to agree to disagree like we do on nearly every topic on every thread.

Joseph_Botwinick · Jun 11, 2005

Does pro-Palestinian always have to mean pro-Terrorist to you? One would probably expect him to be pro-Palestinian, since he is one. But, what he is not is a terrorist, or one who hates the Jews.

Joseph Botwinick

LadyEagle · Jun 11, 2005

This article spells it all out better than I can. But I really don't expect you to read it.

This is the face of a future Palestinian state – not the diplomatic delusions of a peaceful and democratic Palestine living in harmony with Israel – but fundamentalism, irredentism and terrorism.

Since Olso, the Palestinians have given every indication that they will follow in the footsteps of every other Middle East tyranny. The Palestinian Authority inculcates virulent anti-Semitism in its media, school curriculum and religious broadcasts. Since September 2000, Palestinians have murdered 761 Jews and wounded more than 5,000 – almost 80 percent civilians. A March 8, 2003 poll showed 70% of Palestinians support these atrocities.

Yes, but the Palestinians must have a nation of their own, the international community insists. Why? The “Palestinian people” is an invention of Arab propagandists. PLO executive committee member Zahir Muhsein admitted this in a 1977 interview with a Dutch magazine. (“Only for political reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct Palestinian people to oppose Zionism.”)

Arab inhabitants of Israel speak the same language, practice the same religion and observe the same customs as Arab Moslems throughout the region. They would be completely at home anywhere in the Middle East.

In the 1920s, the British lopped off 77 percent of Mandate Palestine and presented it to the Hashmite dynasty. It became Trans Jordan, latter the Kingdom of Jordan. If there is a Palestinian Arab homeland, it is located on the East Bank of the Jordan.

There has never been an independent Arab state on any of the land designated the West Bank – or on the rest of Israel, for that matter. The territory targeted for a Palestinian state was illegally occupied by Jordan for 19 years and liberated by Israel in 1967. It is Biblical Israel (Abraham is buried in Hebron, not Tel Aviv.) -- the land promised by God to Abraham’s descendants in perpetuity. Moslems currently control 99.9 percent of the land in the Middle East. Including the West Bank and Gaza, the Jews have a nation half the size of California’s San Bernardino County.

A Palestinian state living in peace and harmony with Israel? But, of course – just the way Nazi Germany peacefully co-existed with the rump Czech state, after Hitler acquired the Sudatenland. Land for peace has a distinguished lineage.

<snip>

What amazes me is that – given the record of the “Palestinians,” their frequently stated intensions and Israel’s geographic vulnerability – anyone one in his right mind could imagine that a Palestinian state would exist in peace and harmony with Israel.

President Bush says he wants to bring democracy to the Middle East. If he’s serious about creating a Palestinian state, he will end up destroying the only democracy in the Middle East – Israel.

The obstacle to peace in the region isn’t the “plight” of the Palestinians or their lack of a state – it’s Arab revanchism coupled with Islamic fundamentalism. The idea of a sovereign Jewish state anywhere in the Middle East, is intolerable to devout Moslems and Arab nationalists alike – a sacrilege to the former and a mortal affront to the latter.
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Front Page Magazine

Leopards don't change their spots, even if the chief leopard (Arafat) dies.

As stated earlier, when the *peace* comes, it will be a false peace and will end after 3-1/2 years. Someone may rise up any day now and claim to be a direct descendent of Muhammad who can bring about peace. OBL could achieve that in the Middle East, you know, at least among the Arabs, because he is regarded as a hero in the Arab world. Palestinians were dancing in the streets and throwing candy over 09/11 and the terrorist attacks. In fact, 09/11 was known in the Arab world before it happened, even though Americans didn't know it. Terrorist experts testified before Congress about it happening. The picture was on the Islamic calendar for the month of September, 2001. HERE

At any rate, perhaps (if he is ever caught), OBL will make a *deal* - bring about a peace treaty in the Middle East. Time will tell.

You can believe what you want to believe. I will never change your views and you will never change mine. The readers of this thread decide what they want to believe. I have provided plenty of links.

KenH · Jun 11, 2005

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
1) As stated earlier, when the *peace* comes, it will be a false peace and will end after 3-1/2 years.

2) I have provided plenty of links.
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1)

2) One can provide plenty of links to just about anything on the Internet nowadays to prove just about any point that he wants to.

Joseph_Botwinick · Jun 11, 2005

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
OBL could achieve that in the Middle East, you know, at least among the Arabs, because he is regarded as a hero in the Arab world.
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That may very well be true of many extremists, but it certainly is not true of all Arabs. When you get a chance, sometime, go to the video store and rent the movie "Osama" and see what life was like for the average person in Afganistan before America liberated them. This documentary certainly does not paint OBL nor the Taliban as heros, but as thugs.

Joseph Botwinick

Joseph_Botwinick · Jun 11, 2005

Click on "Enter Site" and then "Story" once you click the link below to learn more about the aforementioned movie, "Osama":

http://www.mgm.com/ua/osama/

LadyEagle · Jun 12, 2005

Okay, Joseph, I went and looked. I also read about the Director and the actors and actresses, so it really wasn't a documentary. But this is the sort of movie Americans want to see and I appreciate the fact the Director wanted to tell his story.

At any rate, Afghanistan is not representive of the rest of the Arab world because they have gone through so many years of war and extreme poverty.

My previous post was based on the Arab world as a whole and their world view - a far cry from our Westernized world view.

For instance, I'm sure you saw the OBL shirts on some of the youth on news video shot after the tsunami in that region. No doubt you have also seen the same OBL tee shirts on video from street demonstrations in Muslim countries where the US and Israeli flags are being burned, etc.

Surely you know that leaders of Arab countries speak one thing in English (to tickle our ears and get our foreign aid) and quite the opposite in Arabic. Arafat was the master of this. Remember Turkey (our NATO ally) and how we had to change plans for the Northern troops going into Iraq? There are countless examples which any interested person can find out on the web.

At any rate, let's look at some other sources about OBL being a hero for those who are interested in finding out the truth:

Some of the most interesting pro-bin Laden statements in the Al-Jazeera TV special "Bin Laden – The Arab Despair and American Fear":

"Bin Laden is not a terrorist, as Brother Adlan claims. In the eyes of Muslims throughout the world, bin Laden is fighting a Jihad for the sake of Allah…”

"I am looking at the viewers' reactions for one that would support your positions – but, unfortunately, I can't find any [against bin Laden]. All show unprecedented support for bin Laden."

"There was an opinion poll in a Kuwaiti paper, which showed that 69 percent of Kuwaitis, Egyptians, Syrians, Lebanese and Palestinians think bin Laden is an Arab hero and an Islamic Jihad warrior. ... 65 percent claimed that attacking American targets was justified, because it [is implementation of the principle of] 'an eye for an eye,' and because the American slogan is 'Might is Right' ... 76 percent would be sorry if bin Laden were caught.”

"You demand democracy and such things – here's democracy for you. This is [the opinion of] the people. Besides, I have a poll on the [Al-Jazeera] Internet site. Out of 3,942 people who responded, 82.7 percent saw bin Laden as a Jihad fighter, 8.8 percent as a terrorist, and 8.4 percent didn't know. This is an actual result about which there can be no argument. There is an Arab consensus from the Gulf to the [Atlantic] ocean. A real 82 percent – not like percentages in elections in Arab countries."
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Sources:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=25802

http://www.islamfortoday.com/fundamnetalism.htm

http://www.israelinsider.com/views/articles/views_0174.htm

Source-ACS

Special Report 9/14/01

Beloved terrorist
For 'standing up' to America, Osama bin Laden is hailed in much of the Arab world as a hero

BY KHALED ABU TOAMEH, PHILIP SMUCKER, AND LARRY DERFNER

East Jerusalem's Arab neighborhoods were pockets of joy Tuesday. In a world heartsick with grief after the terrorist attacks against America, young men passed out squares of baklava, honoring the Muslim tradition of serving sweets in times of celebration. A middle-aged cab driver honked his horn, stuck his fist out the window, and shouted gleefully, "America has been destroyed!"

From the remote desert training camps in Yemen to the steaming fruit markets of a Cairo ghetto, Arabs knew whom they thought they should thank: Osama bin Laden. The accused mastermind of the 1998 bombings of U.S. embassies in Tanzania and Kenya, bin Laden commands a disturbing amount of respect in the Arab world for his fight against what is viewed as American-backed Israeli aggression. "Osama is a hero here because he is the only one who stands up to the U.S.–who isn't afraid of them," said Mohamed Ali Sauti, a Yemeni student speaking by telephone from the capital of Sana. "He will prevail if Allah wills it."

Praise for bin Laden, a 44-year-old Saudi dissident, is rarely so direct; circumlocution is more typical. "What would you do if your wife was raped?" asked Said Makhmoud, 43, surrounded by a dozen tea drinkers in Cairo's Imbaba slum. "I'm talking about the wife that represents honor, virginity, and ownership." If you answer that you might try to find the man "and punish him or even kill him," Said continued, "well, then, you are like our Osama and you must see why we admire him."
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US News.com

October 31, 2004
Young Arab Sentiment
Last night I went out with a new Arab friend that I had met at a family gathering. I brought along some of my American friends and he brought along some of his friends and we went to a posh restaurant and had the traditional Ramadan desserts.

These people are of the 19-22 age range and come from affluent families. They drive BMW’s, their parents have advanced degrees from the States or Europe. They dress like Americans, talk like Americans and many want to visit or live in America for at least a while. Many would love to study in America. They speak of the freedom of America. They love to meet Americans and say that they love Americans.

And they love Osama bin Ladin. Yes, it’s true, they think he is a hero. From talking with my one friend, this is what he said:

“You know many of us Arabs like Osama bin Ladin, not because he killed Americans, that is tragic for those who died and we don’t like to see people die, but finally someone stood up to America and Bush.”

Since these are delicate issues, I don’t push them, but I did add that OBL was planning 9-11 way before Bush came into office. He said, “this isn’t true.” Kudos to Arab media. I asked him what about the attacks before Bush, such as the 1993 WTC bombing and also the numerous attacks overseas that occurred even before Bush senior. He just claimed that Osama had nothing to do with that.

Then I asked how he felt about the attacks that were planned for Jordan that would’ve killed perhaps 80,000 people. I asked him how it felt to be a target for al-Qaida because he lives in a neighborhood in the rich West Amman that would’ve been under a chemical weapons cloud. What does he think when bin Ladin would’ve targeted him?

“This is not true, al-Qaida was not behind this attack” was his answer. I didn’t push to ask who actually was, but it probably would’ve been something dealing with the Israelis.

I didn’t state it as a fact, but put it out there that “maybe” Osama bin Ladin has killed more Muslims than he has Americans and I asked how he felt about this. He said, “that’s not true either, Osama bin Laden hasn’t killed Muslims, his group has never really targeted them in attack, some may have died accidentally though.”

Once again, I’d like to say that these are modern Arabs, who love going shopping in American stores, love hanging out with Americans and are liberal in their country. I feel perfectly safe around them. They’d never wish anything bad upon me, personally. They want to learn about my life in America, they’re excited to hear me tell stories and indeed, they have very similar ones. They’re free to do pretty much whatever they want because after all, they do live in Jordan. It still is very hard to sit next to someone who thinks OBL is a hero and has really stood up for the Arab world and is forwarding Arab interests against the “global King” George Bush. It’s hard to sit next to people and talk about the latest movies that have come out, our most favorite episode of Seinfield, the latest news about Usher and Beyonce and Jessica Simpson, all the places we’ve traveled to in the world, and how we want to be academics, Drs, lawyers, diplomats and the like….and then hear them praise the antithesis to all these modern things, Osama bin Ladin.
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Terrorism Unveiled.com
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Joseph_Botwinick · Jun 12, 2005

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
Okay, Joseph, I went and looked. I also read about the Director and the actors and actresses, so it really wasn't a documentary. But this is the sort of movie Americans want to see and I appreciate the fact the Director wanted to tell his story.
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It is based on a true story. Perhaps a better word would have been docudrama. Are you saying that Afganistan is the only Islamic country to be torn with war and poverty? Come on, LE, you know better than that.

Joseph Botwinick

KenH · Jun 12, 2005

A moderate Muslim organization:

www.aicongress.org

Another moderate Muslim organization:

www.freemuslims.org

DavidFWhite3 · Jun 12, 2005

This is the kind of idiotic talk that makes me want to scream. Some of you are more concerned with your Darbian Dispensationalist garbage than you are about peace and justice, the real issues of the Kingdom. It also reveals the contempt so many of you have for authentic Christian scholarship. Sory folks but no rapture, no 7 year tribulation. It's all fiction, and not what the writer of Revelation or any other biblical writer meant to convey. Why can't you Fundies take Revelation literally like you do Genesis?

LadyEagle · Jun 12, 2005

Why can't you Fundies take Revelation literally like you do Genesis?
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We do. There will be on peace on earth until the 1000 year LITERAL reign of Jesus Christ.

hillclimber · Jun 12, 2005

Originally posted by DavidFWhite3:
This is the kind of idiotic talk that makes me want to scream. Some of you are more concerned with your Darbian Dispensationalist garbage than you are about peace and justice, the real issues of the Kingdom. It also reveals the contempt so many of you have for authentic Christian scholarship. Sory folks but no rapture, no 7 year tribulation. It's all fiction, and not what the writer of Revelation or any other biblical writer meant to convey. Why can't you Fundies take Revelation literally like you do Genesis?
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This is nonsense, and I do take Rev. literally. I have no idea what Darbianism is.

hillclimber · Jun 12, 2005

You two accuse me of false beliefs, but I'm not the one spiritualizing, when I can't understand a concept. Your whole Biblical knowlege seems to be viewed through the pen of many different so called scholars. The Bible speaks for itself, not Calvin, or Darby,(no clue who that is) or Martin Luther, or the various Baptist conventions. The different ways God has dealt with man, are clearly delineated, and straight forward. I have come to know that action as different dispensations.

hillclimber · Jun 12, 2005

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Why can't you Fundies take Revelation literally like you do Genesis?
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We do. There will be on peace on earth until the 1000 year LITERAL reign of Jesus Christ. [/QUOTE]Precisely

Kiffen · Jun 13, 2005

Getting back to the subject...We should pray for the peace of Jerusalem. I am not sure a Palestinian state is possible though Abbas offers hope but in most islamic states, the radical muslims seem to dominate. Time will tell.

It should be pointed out that most Christains in Israel are Palestinian and not Jewish. Jews in Israel tend to be secular.

Christians should seek and pray for peace between Jews and Palestinians.

KenH · Jun 13, 2005

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
There will be on peace on earth until the 1000 year LITERAL reign of Jesus Christ.
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There will never be a LITERAL reign of Christ Jesus on this physical earth, LE.

You have been deceived, my sister in Christ.

KenH · Jun 13, 2005

Originally posted by hillclimber:
or Darby,(no clue who that is)
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Darby is the man who came up with the false idea of dispensationalism as we know it today.

See this link - www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Darbyism

hillclimber · Jun 13, 2005

Originally posted by KenH:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by LadyEagle:
There will be on peace on earth until the 1000 year LITERAL reign of Jesus Christ.
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There will never be a LITERAL reign of Christ Jesus on this physical earth, LE.

You have been deceived, my sister in Christ. [/QUOTE]Ken, What do you do with this reference (Luke 1:32,33) that promises Christ will sit on Davids throne? What do you do with the Kingdom promises? Maybe I was mistaken about you, are you a Baptist? They believe as I do around here on the issue of His reign on earth in his Kingdom. Most of the Bible believing Christians I know, believe Revelation to be true and literal.

Deception, a work of Satan, can be/is very subtle, and we all should be very wary.

Ken, what qualifies one to be considered saved?

Kiffen · Jun 13, 2005

Ken, What do you do with this reference (Luke 1:32,33) that promises Christ will sit on Davids throne? What do you do with the Kingdom promises? Maybe I was mistaken about you, are you a Baptist? They believe as I do around here on the issue of His reign on earth in his Kingdom. Most of the Bible believing Christians I know, believe Revelation to be true and literal.

Deception, a work of Satan, can be/is very subtle, and we all should be very wary.

Ken, what qualifies one to be considered saved?
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Actually views of the Millenium have never been viewed as a barrier to Christian fellowship.

Most of the early Baptists were all Postmill and that is true of most Southern Baptists in the early years. Only in the last 100 years has Premill become dominant among Baptists.

I consider myself a mixture of Amill, Postmill.

They do not deserve a State

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They do not deserve a *State*

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They do not deserve a State