Bushites Split As Gitmo Abuses Continue

There should be a very large supply of those available for viewing by those who'd like to understand what torture really is like.

 

Rocko9, please read the previous postings regarding the Congressional authorization for the war in Iraq. We, the American people, have authorized the war through our elected representatives. President Bush is doing his duty as the top civilian leader of that war effort.

 

You're right again, friend!

 

Poncho, please refer to previous postings regarding the timing of these statements. This is old news! </font>[/QUOTE]

The quotes may be old news but the Here's Why part was publisihed July 23, 2005 6:00 PM ET

So in all your lengthy posts are you saying we Americans shouldn't question authority until the never ending war on terror is over?

 

Rocko9, you asked yeshua4me2 these questions but I want to answer them also.

If you're asking that from the higher level perspective of how America treats prisoners of war, then my answer would be, yes, He would be pleased that we show mercy, give good care, hold them to the same law (UCMJ) as our own, and, at the end of conflicts, repatriate them. We do much better at this today than in older times.

If you're asking that from the lower level perspective of how America deals with mistreatment of prisoners of war, then my answer would be, yes, He would be pleased that we demand proper conduct from our own and punish those who do not abide by it. We still fall short of perfection and always will.

My answer is, no, Jesus would not want us to hide or ignore evil doing. Fortunately, we're not hiding or ignoring evil. That is why America has stood so strong against tyranny. Our Lord, while displeased with our sinfulness, is certainly more pleased with our good conduct in this respect than if we'd done nothing when we possessed to power and had the opportunity to do something. Fortunately, we're also disciplining ourselves to a higher level of conduct than many others even our present enemies.

Our Lord never committed any sin and yet took on the burden of all sin. When He comes again there will be no more war. Until He does we must deal with it. The best we can hope for is to deal with it according to the law of war and with the hope that each conflict might somehow be the last.

Yes, even among us there are those who deceitfully seek to destroy our nation by lies, exaggerations, and distortions.

Yes, Rocko9, mankind is extremely sinful even in his righteous moments he has his own interests in mind. Before God we are nothing! Not a one of us have anything to crow about!

Among men, however, there are degrees of evil and we can clearly judge them by the acts of mankind. It's great to be a citizen of a nation, that for now at least, still stands tall in its dealings on this earth.

President Bush is doing his duty as our top civilian leader in the war on terrorism. He's doing so with the full approval of Congress. They are doing so with the full approval of those who elected them. This is not a one man war! It is a war America - the entire nation - is fighting to win against a very evil and ruthless enemy.

 

Yes, Poncho, the date of the article was clear to me! The article itself, in quoting the comments, states: "This is how CNN reported it on May 8, 2004, in a typical account that day:" which makes it OLD news being regurgiated now in the hopes of generating new adverse impacts.

Nothing was written about never questioning authority. What I wrote, by example of one paragraph, was:

The image you posted would be good Communist progranda. It doesn't belong in the America I know and is a mockery of what we stand for.

 

It certainly doesn't belong in America. I agree 100%. However, El Presidente and his globalist masters see it differently.

Look around Dragoon, take a good look. Your losing your liberty and constitution to a global crime cartel that couldn't care less about America. No, let me clarify that, want nothing more than to see America brought down to third world status, a nation state controlled by unelected officials in a world governing body.

While your kept busy watching craftily concocted illusions here and abroad they're busy destroying this country from within. It ain't just the liberals anymore it's the global elite
fascists and their puppets in our own government that are our enemies.

You want to tell everyone about the nature of our enemy why not start by correctly identifing the most dangerous enemy first?

Oh but wait, that would take some thinking outside the box isn't that un-American?

 

"The unmuzzeled dogs were used to terrify inmates"

Am I supposed to feel something here? These men would kill my 3 daughters while riding on a subway and not blink but I'm supposed to get all up in arms because an attack dog got a little to frisky with one of them?
Take your PC fodder somewherelse dude.

When it comes to terrorists I say:

"Kill em all let God sort em out!"

Only one thing worse than a "commie sympathizer"
and that is an "islamic terrorist sympathizer"

What we need is to get rid of the fifth column in this country that is what we need.

Hey Aslanspal why don't you go over to the middle east and take up arms with the terrorists? Oh forget about it that would take some real guts to do that. It is alot easier to aid the enemy from the comfort of your own home wrapped up in your cozy little blanket call free speech. Just remember its those soldiers &lt;personal attack snipped&gt;

Good day

[ July 27, 2005, 12:57 AM: Message edited by: C4K ]

 

AMERICAN WAR.......we feed our enemies......we cloth our enemies.....we rebuild what we destroyed......we give medical care for EVERY PRISIONER captured.....sounds horrible.......we import TV's and radios and GIVE THEM AWAY....we purify their water.....we buy them copies of their pagan religous books......we train them to defend themselves....and last but not least we stop THEIR OWN LEADERS from killing them en mass (germany, germany, korea, vietnam,DS1,DS2, and others you will NEVER know about). and we get some info from the badguys before we kill them, so we can stop their friends from killing you. thank God that there are those willing to give up their lives for their bretheren.

MANCHU

thankyou and God Bless


and Jesus said "those who live by the sword MUST die by the sword.

and God said, Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: For in the image of God made he man.

and for all you whining for the protection of these vial less than human humans, you can't find a better way to get information about the enemy. sig-int(internet,radio,cellphone) has recentally been shown to be a bust (London,Egypt), Hum-int(spies) failed us on 911, OKC, Spain, Kobar towers, 2 embassies in africa, Marine barricks in Lebanon, because we had no spies (thanks to libs). Sat-imagry only goes so far since Billy sold our satellite fly overs to the world, can't use field analysts...no field, how about just his. int. If we go by history, they have been at war with Christians since their inception (islam). the ONLY source available to the US is direct human interrogations, and that just happens to be the most reliable (aside from history) intelligence out there.


look at the OT for War principles, and yes if kids are fighting against you, you kill them. just like we did in WWI and WWII. in all the countries we are fighting right now (and this can go back to Vietnam as well) children are use for combat. the reality of war is NOT a good thing but it is a nessesary evil, like lying, without it some good thing are not possible.


lying is only nessesary not good though, like during WWII, when asked," vere are your Jews?", the proper and Godly response would be to lie to protect the Jews, as a matter of fact it would be morally repugnant to me if you told where the Jews were hiding.

war is as close to hell as a man can get on earth.


MANCHU

thankyou and God Bless

 

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Big Grinjavascript:void(0)
Roll Eyes

 

Looked like the guy was smiling and the dog was about to lick himin the face.

 

This sounds like the kind of stuff the Shriners do on Saturday night when they are drunk. It is real childish. I can't dance very well and I would not want to dance with some Arab male even if he was dressed like a lady. </font>[/QUOTE]And this is O.K. for Christians to condone these kind of degrading filthy acts.

Matthew 5:7

"Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy."

Blessed are the merciful. Therefore, if you want to be blessed, you must make war against the bondage of religious and secular trifles, and devote your life to the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, faith. Mercy is no trifle. It is one of the weightiest matters in all of life.
Luke:6:31
"Do unto others as you would have others do unto you."
It is the ultimate norm of high morality in our culture. Sure there are other morals by which we live, but this one phrase embodies our most cherished value: that we should treat people as we would like to be treated.

I don't think Jesus ever said that we should Humiliate or degrade our enimies. </font>[/QUOTE]I think that if this is the sum total of all the left has at Gitmo, the left should put their Bibles away and forget it. This stuff is merely childish and could not have been very effective in obtaining information from hardened murderers who kill children, women, and invalid men without a second thought or without remorse.

Here in Indiana, the Democrats had incidents of abuse in prisons and mental hospitals while they governed Indiana. It never became an election issue because the public is smart enough to know that the wrongdoings of one or two people are not the policy of the Democrat governor, etc.

To tell you the truth, Rocko, this stuff sounds like what they do in the Mormon Temple or the Masonic Lodge.

 

WWFDRD? What would Franklin Delano Roosevelt Do? WWFDRD? FDR executed 6 out of 10 German spies on American soil during WW II. He had a military trial in Washington DC and then he executed them. He was going to execute 2 more but he himself died first.

FDR in order to sort out Japanese spies from the general Japanese public sent 120,000 Japanese living in the USA to detention camps even though 2/3 of them were full-fledged American citizens.

WWFDRD? We know, A-Pal, what you leftists did when you had power under FDR. You abused far more human rights than can be documented on this thread at this time. A-Pal, the stuff in Gitmo is so childish that it is a waste of time to talk about it and the stuff about Iraq belongs on another thread.

 

This sounds like the kind of stuff the Shriners do on Saturday night when they are drunk. It is real childish. I can't dance very well and I would not want to dance with some Arab male even if he was dressed like a lady. </font>[/QUOTE]And this is O.K. for Christians to condone these kind of degrading filthy acts.

Matthew 5:7

"Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy."

Blessed are the merciful. Therefore, if you want to be blessed, you must make war against the bondage of religious and secular trifles, and devote your life to the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, faith. Mercy is no trifle. It is one of the weightiest matters in all of life.
Luke:6:31
"Do unto others as you would have others do unto you."
It is the ultimate norm of high morality in our culture. Sure there are other morals by which we live, but this one phrase embodies our most cherished value: that we should treat people as we would like to be treated.

I don't think Jesus ever said that we should Humiliate or degrade our enimies. </font>[/QUOTE]I think that if this is the sum total of all the left has at Gitmo, the left should put their Bibles away and forget it. This stuff is merely childish and could not have been very effective in obtaining information from hardened murderers who kill children, women, and invalid men without a second thought or without remorse.

Here in Indiana, the Democrats had incidents of abuse in prisons and mental hospitals while they governed Indiana. It never became an election issue because the public is smart enough to know that the wrongdoings of one or two people are not the policy of the Democrat governor, etc.

To tell you the truth, Rocko, this stuff sounds like what they do in the Mormon Temple or the Masonic Lodge. </font>[/QUOTE]Well CMG Why don't you just tell that to God instead of me. All Christians should be more concerned about what God wants us to do instead what we would want to do. Man's ways are corrupt.
Stand up for Jesus or git out of the way.

[ July 28, 2005, 10:38 PM: Message edited by: LadyEagle ]

 

Does anyone else think that some of these amateur interrogators are seriously perverted, sexually?

 

My guess is you never served in the military, eh ?

 

Yes, it's true that one or more persons were bitten by dogs at Abu Ghriab but there is nothing really new about this news! This is OLD news being regurgitated to whip up the issue again.

The latest "revived" story comes from the very recent testimony of Private Frederick in the Article 32 hearing of Sergeant Cardona and Sergeant Smith who are facing charges for mistreatment of prisoners at Abu Ghriab. Frederick testified that two prisoners were bitten by dogs as they were being handled by Sergeant Cardona and Sergeant Smith who were competing to see who could scare more detainees. Private Frederick, formerly Sergeant Frederick, is serving an eight year sentence at Fort Leavenworth after pleading guilty to conspiracy, dereliction of duty, maltreatment of detainees, assault and committing an indecent act.

Major General Taguba's report of his command investigation of the 800th MP Brigade concluded in early 2004 included the statement that "... intentional abuse of detainees by military police personnel included the following acts: ... Using military working dogs (without muzzles) to intimidate and frighten detainees, and in at least one case biting and severely injuring a detainee ..." so this has been "on the table" for about 18 months now.

Major General Taguba's report addressed one facet of the problem. In addition specific criminal investigations were already on-going at the time of his report and have continued since. These investigations focus on specific acts by specific persons. The purpose is to determine the truth so that the accused may be charged with or cleared on wrong doing. These type matters are handled by the Criminal Investigation Division (the Army's accredited military police "detectives"), followed up with Article 32 investigations, and then with courts-marital or non-judicial proceedings.

Several dog handlers were questioned in detail about their activities at Abu Ghriab during the Taguba investigation. They provided information about their experiences during 2003. One acknowledged that his dog had bitten a detainee and that the matter was under investigation by CID. Another said the dogs were used to prevent escape as a step before lethal force was authorized. He further reported that prisoners frequently antagonized the dogs putting themselves at risk. He said the dogs, after working the prison a while, did not like behavior of the prisoners. One Navy dog handler reported that his dog accidentally bite an interpreter during an interrogation. He also admitted that the Military Intelligence (MI) interrogators appeared to want to use his dog as a means to threaten the prisoners but he refused.

There was a mix of good and bad "answers" provided but certainly enough to cause considerable concern that things were not in order. Two of those - Cardona and Smith - mentioned above in Taguba's report are among those facing the Article 32 hearing now. Another received notice from Major General Taguba in his report for having done the right things.

Brigader General Karpinski, Commander of the 800th MP Brigade, and the officer responsible for "safe keeping" of the prisoners, was demoted to Colonel. She also received a written reprimand because of her dereliction of duty. She did not commit the abusive acts but she didn't do her job to maintain proper order and discipline in her unit. Officers I've spoken with about this are appalled at her conduct. This action effectively ends her military career.

Major General Fay and Major General Jones were tasked with a command investigation of the 205th MI Brigade. Results were issued in August 2004. Fay concluded "... that from 25 July 2003 to 6 February 2004, twenty-seven 205 MI Brigade personnel allegedly requested, encouraged, condoned or solicited Military Police (MP) personnel to abuse detainees and/or participated in detainee abuse and/or violated established interrogation procedures and applicable laws and regulations during interrogation operations ..." at the Abu Ghriab prison. Jones concluded "... that while senior level officers did not commit the abuse at Abu Ghraib they did bear responsibility for lack of oversight of the facility, failing to respond in a timely manner to the reports from the International Committee of the Red Cross and for issuing policy memos that failed to provide clear, consistent guidance for execution at the tactical level."

Colonel Pappas, Commander of the 205th MI Brigade, and the "highest ranking MI officer" responsible for interrogation, at Abu Ghriab accepted an Article 15 non-judicial punishment for two counts of dereliction of duty, for having ordered interrogators to use dogs to scare prisoners, without having gotten approval from his superiors. He received a letter of reprimand and an $8,000 fine. This action effectively ends his military career.

These matters have been and are being properly dealt with. The lessons learned from these incidents of misconduct and leadership failure are being addressed. There's no need for America to beat itself up about these things indefinitely. We need to focus on the mission of fighting terrorism. We need to keep morale high, maintain good order and discipline, and continue doing what has to be done. We must not let the failures of a few take us all down.