OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I have never indicated otherwise.
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The Church and The Great Commission
- Thread starter OldRegular
- Start date
Amen! For earthly churches, but we do join that One church, the Church God, so as you say the earthly church is secondary, to be with those whose belief is close to ours.
You seem to discern much of what you read. Most just take what has been put before them in church sermons and Sunday school. The verses referred to, Matthew 28:19, 20 point to missionary work indeed for the Apostles to evangelize the world to the gospel of John the Baptist of “repent and be baptized for the remission of sins” for the kingdom is at hand. And you correctly recognize in the “great commission” call to teach and baptize people according to the gospel that John preached to the nation of Israel, as did Jesus. But is this the Christian message that we spread today, and are correct in spreading?
Do all hear, preach, teach, and believe that message today of John the Baptist, and that same gospel that Jesus preached on this earth, and most definitely instructed His Apostles to teach after His ascension, and after Pentecost? Do we really believe the “great commission” of Matthew, Mark, and Luke?
Is that what Baptists believed of Old, and what they believe today? I have yet to hear one Baptist Preacher, Teacher, or Believer give credence to that part of the “great commission” referenced in Mark’s account. Paul put it nicely (Galatians 1:6-7) in his amazement of how soon the Galatians had turned from his gospel of grace to that other kind of gospel of legalism, which after all is not the gospel (good news). The law is not good news for those who live under its curse. James, Peter, John and the rest of the Jewish Pentecostal church gave no permission to the Judaizers (troublers) to go amongst the Gentile’s, and Jews of like faith saying they must follow Jewish customs, or ordnances.
I personally do not believe our gospel today is to include the “great commission”, for I have yet to see anyone that can heal on demand, drink poison with no ill effects, cast out devils, or speak with new tongues that I can understand. Baptist would be much more effective with the “grace commission”, than trying to compete with the Catholic’s that really do believe the “great commission”, especially with their Pope in direct line from Peter (Ha! Ha!), of which we don’t have.
I agree very much with you that the individual, which is in the Body of Christ, His Church, is what’s important.Christian faith, ituttut Galatians 1:11-12
IveyLeaguer
New Member
Interesting take, ituttut.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Is there anyone on this Forum who believes that God has ever dealt with His people other than through the manifestation of His Grace?
If you do then please explain why God shed the first blood to make a provisional atonement for the sins if Adam and Eve.
If you do then please explain why God shed the first blood to make a provisional atonement for the sins if Adam and Eve.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
ituttut
You have made it quite clear to those who carefully read your posts that you do not believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
As for your remaining remarks:
1. Demons cast out: Acts 16:16-18
16. And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:
17. The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.
18. And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.
2. Heal on demand: Acts 20:9-12
9. And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead.
10. And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing him said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him.
11. When he therefore was come up again, and had broken bread, and eaten, and talked a long while, even till break of day, so he departed.
12. And they brought the young man alive, and were not a little comforted.
3. Speaking in tongues, according to the Apostle Paul:
1 Corinthians 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1 Corinthians 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
4. Poisonous snakes: Acts 28:3-5
3. And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand.
4. And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live.
5. And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm.
All these things were done by the Apostle Paul after your so-called "grace commission". How about that ituttut?
ituttut
You have made it quite clear to those who carefully read your posts that you do not believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
As for your remaining remarks:
1. Demons cast out: Acts 16:16-18
Would you not say you have a problem if you can’t do this?
16. And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:
17. The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.
18. And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.
When is the last time you did this?
2. Heal on demand: Acts 20:9-12
9. And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead.
10. And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing him said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him.
11. When he therefore was come up again, and had broken bread, and eaten, and talked a long while, even till break of day, so he departed.
12. And they brought the young man alive, and were not a little comforted.
Could Paul do this after his arriving in Rome?
3. Speaking in tongues, according to the Apostle Paul:
1 Corinthians 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1 Corinthians 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
4. Poisonous snakes: Acts 28:3-5
3. And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand.
4. And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live.
5. And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm.
All these things were done by the Apostle Paul after your so-called "grace commission". How about that ituttut?
</font>[/QUOTE]You show me your faith, and I’ll show you mine. The Power of the Holy Ghost was given to those of the Pentecostal church, and then to Paul with all full power, and then some of his Apostles and Disciples received some or one of those gifts. But this Power was given for the furtherance of the Gospels, or in other words to get the Show On The Road. Israel did not accept their King, and then they rejected the Holy Ghost, so the Powers began shifting to Paul for the beginning of the Christian church, and the Body of Christ Church. When God got Paul to Rome all of the miracles as such stopped, with the exception of “apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers”. And I believe after the last Apostles died, we are left with disciples, or perhaps as with Paul our great Missionaries.
Do we have prophets today? I don’t know, but I don’t think so, for I believe the last of these must have been John, for we now know the “beginning from the end”.
What we do know are the following. We have with us the Evangelists, the Pastors, and the Teachers. Do we need anything else? Today we are Once Saved, Always Saved, and that was unheard of and impossible before Christ Jesus spoke to a certain Apostle from heaven on the matter of Salvation for all, as He reconciles the World unto Himself.
You show me your works, and I will show you my faith. Christian faith, ituttut
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I have proven the above false on another thread but one passage will suffice to show that your beliefs are seriously flawed.
John 10:26-30
26. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
30. I and my Father are one.
Jesus Christ spoke these words while on earth!
I have proven the above false on another thread but one passage will suffice to show that your beliefs are seriously flawed.
John 10:26-30
26. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
30. I and my Father are one.
Jesus Christ spoke these words while on earth!
Jesus knew His Father would raise Him from the dead. No one could be Once Saved Always Saved until after the shedding of His Blood on the Cross. Does James or Peter tell you all about OSAS, at the very moment you believe, by having the One Baptism done without hands"?
Also please try to remember that Jesus said He did not come for the heathen dogs. Had you (I take it you are of heathen breed) or I lived in that day, Jesus would not have given us the time of day, unless it was for a specific purpose to have been recorded in scripture. Christian faith, ituttut
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
ituttut
you state:
You also state
16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Come into the light ituttut before it is too late!
you state:
Can you enlighten all who read your posts as to the the difference between Jesus Christ giving eternal life and OSAS? By the way in what Scripture did Paul use the expresion OSAS? I believe that John's Gospel has more to say about this than Paul ever did.
You also state
That is flat out blasphemy and libelous. It was Jesus Christ who said in John 3:16-19:
16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Come into the light ituttut before it is too late!
In MT 4:19 Jesus said, "Follow Me and I will make you . . ." In MT. 28:19, 20 he said to make disciples. In Acts 20 making disciples is a task the Holy Spirit has entrusted to believers not God.
Something well worth reading is at http://www.bibleteacher.org/Dm118_8.htm
Something well worth reading is at http://www.bibleteacher.org/Dm118_8.htm
elijah_lives
New Member
"I personally do not believe our gospel today is to include the “great commission”, for I have yet to see anyone that can heal on demand, drink poison with no ill effects, cast out devils, or speak with new tongues that I can understand."
The several versions of the Bible that I read indicate that "the most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20", implying the corruption and adulteration of the original text...
The several versions of the Bible that I read indicate that "the most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20", implying the corruption and adulteration of the original text...
Can you enlighten all who read your posts as to the the difference between Jesus Christ giving eternal life and OSAS? By the way in what Scripture did Paul use the expresion OSAS? I believe that John's Gospel has more to say about this than Paul ever did.
Yes, Jesus said He gives eternal life, but when can He give it? Why didn’t Jesus give Peter eternal life instantly? Please read you Bible again, a little more closely this time. Luke 22:31-32, “And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: 32. But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.”[/I] Quote me some appropriate scripture son, and I will believe you. In the meantime please really mean it when you say you believe what Jesus said while on this earth.
This should tell you that the Jew had to come byfaith and had to endure until the end, for they did not have the holding (sealing) power within themselves, and the animal’s blood could only cover them for a short time. They did not have the necessary Grace of God through faith to be Once Saved Always Saved. It was not offered to them, and could not possibly be done until it was offered.
When is it that you find this fact of OSAS to be true? You hear it from Paul first. Nowhere does Jesus every say while on earth that anybody was saved instantly. Some believed, but they had to die first to gain the promise, while they were in the “holding” place.
You also state
That is flat out blasphemy and libelous. It was Jesus Christ who said in John 3:16-19:
16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
I believe what Jesus says above, and every other word attributed to Him in the Bible, and I wish you would too.
I’ll not accuse you of blasphemy and libel, but only ignorance of His Word. Gentiles did not hear what Jesus said on this earth as to salvation, or very much of anything He said. He didn’t care at that time, for we were not His sheep while He was on earth.
Jesus said to those of His to not give anything Holy to the dogs, Matthew 7:6. And where do we find out who the dogs are? We find that information in Matthew 15:26. So I would be careful if I were you throwing around that loose inappropriate language of judgment. Everyone word you speak without cause, you will be held accountable, especially to fellow Christians.
Come into the light ituttut before it is too late! </font>[/QUOTE]Turn around, for you may be looking at that candle held by the angel of light, that prince of this world. We have to let go of him to have the joy, peace, liberty and freedom of our salvation. Christian faith, ituttut
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
ituttut
Jesus Christ tells Nicodemus in John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
He has told us heavenly things in the record of His earthly ministry, the four Gospels, and you believe not. I will repeat these Scripture once again but you will still not believe because you have been brainwashed by hyperdispensationalism.
Jesus Christ tells us in John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
These words by Jesus Christ are inclusive, the world, and promise everlasting life to whosoever believes in him. He had these words recorded for all humanity. Those who believe in Him were saved never to be lost. That is the Eternal Security of the Believer or in Baptist parlance once saved always saved.
Jesus Christ further tells us in John 10:27-30
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
30. I and my Father are one.
Jesus Christ gives his sheep, those who believe in Him, eternal life. He further tells us that no man can pluck them out of His hand or out of His Father's hand. That is the Eternal Security of the Believer or in Baptist parlance once saved always saved.
It is obvious that you do not believe these Scripture or you would not continue to prattle about Paul's gospel that Jesus Christ revealed to him from heaven. The Apostle Paul himself tells us in Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Nothing there about the gospel of Paul. In fact he has told us earlier in Romans 1:1-3
1. Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2. (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3. Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Paul in this passage tells us that he was called to be an Apostle and separated unto the Gospel of God concerning His Son Jesus Christ. No mention of the gospel of Paul here. He later tells us in Romans 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers; Here Paul tells us that he serves with his spirit the Gospel of God's Son. No mention of Paul's gospel here. Now how old is this Gospel of God or Jesus Christ, God the Son. The Apostle Paul tells us in Galatians 3:6-9
6. Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
Paul tells us that the Gospel was preached unto Abraham. What Gospel was preached unto Abraham? Paul knew only one Gospel, the Gospel of Jesus Christ. He had earlier chastized the Galatians as follows in Galatians 1:6-9
6. I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
No mention of a gospel of Paul here only the Gospel of Jesus Christ. What does Paul say should happen to those who preach anything other than the Gospel of Jesus Christ? Let him be accursed. I remind you again of what Paul states about the Gospel in Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Now ituttut, you have prattled on and on that Jesus Christ did not teach Once Saved, Always Saved that only Paul did. I have shown you above for the second time that Jesus Christ taught the Eternal Security of the Believer or as you like to say OSAS. Could you show me the Scripture where Paul explicitely teaches OSAS? Frankly I always thought this was a Baptist perversion of the Biblical doctrine of the Eternal Security of the Believer [which Jesus Christ taught in John 10:27-30] or the Perseverance of the Saints [which Jesus Christ taught is Matthew 10:22; Revelation 2:10, 17, 22; and Revelation 3:21].
Jesus Christ tells Nicodemus in John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
He has told us heavenly things in the record of His earthly ministry, the four Gospels, and you believe not. I will repeat these Scripture once again but you will still not believe because you have been brainwashed by hyperdispensationalism.
Jesus Christ tells us in John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
These words by Jesus Christ are inclusive, the world, and promise everlasting life to whosoever believes in him. He had these words recorded for all humanity. Those who believe in Him were saved never to be lost. That is the Eternal Security of the Believer or in Baptist parlance once saved always saved.
Jesus Christ further tells us in John 10:27-30
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
30. I and my Father are one.
Jesus Christ gives his sheep, those who believe in Him, eternal life. He further tells us that no man can pluck them out of His hand or out of His Father's hand. That is the Eternal Security of the Believer or in Baptist parlance once saved always saved.
It is obvious that you do not believe these Scripture or you would not continue to prattle about Paul's gospel that Jesus Christ revealed to him from heaven. The Apostle Paul himself tells us in Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Nothing there about the gospel of Paul. In fact he has told us earlier in Romans 1:1-3
1. Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2. (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3. Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Paul in this passage tells us that he was called to be an Apostle and separated unto the Gospel of God concerning His Son Jesus Christ. No mention of the gospel of Paul here. He later tells us in Romans 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers; Here Paul tells us that he serves with his spirit the Gospel of God's Son. No mention of Paul's gospel here. Now how old is this Gospel of God or Jesus Christ, God the Son. The Apostle Paul tells us in Galatians 3:6-9
6. Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
Paul tells us that the Gospel was preached unto Abraham. What Gospel was preached unto Abraham? Paul knew only one Gospel, the Gospel of Jesus Christ. He had earlier chastized the Galatians as follows in Galatians 1:6-9
6. I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
No mention of a gospel of Paul here only the Gospel of Jesus Christ. What does Paul say should happen to those who preach anything other than the Gospel of Jesus Christ? Let him be accursed. I remind you again of what Paul states about the Gospel in Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Now ituttut, you have prattled on and on that Jesus Christ did not teach Once Saved, Always Saved that only Paul did. I have shown you above for the second time that Jesus Christ taught the Eternal Security of the Believer or as you like to say OSAS. Could you show me the Scripture where Paul explicitely teaches OSAS? Frankly I always thought this was a Baptist perversion of the Biblical doctrine of the Eternal Security of the Believer [which Jesus Christ taught in John 10:27-30] or the Perseverance of the Saints [which Jesus Christ taught is Matthew 10:22; Revelation 2:10, 17, 22; and Revelation 3:21].
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Actually ituttut it was John the Baptist who first taught about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 3:11 []I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:[/i]
Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
How about that????
Now, now, OldRegular, you know I have answered this before as to Eternal Security of the Believer, but OSAS was not available to any until after Jesus Christ shed His blood.Originally posted by OldRegular:
ituttut
Jesus Christ tells Nicodemus in John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
It would seem Nicodemus evidently didn’t understand earthly or heavenly things.
He has told us heavenly things in the record of His earthly ministry, the four Gospels, and you believe not. I will repeat these Scripture once again but you will still not believe because you have been brainwashed by hyperdispensationalism.
Brainwashed by the Word of God as presented by Christ Jesus from heaven as given directly to Paul. Woe to Paul if he does not preach the “dispensational gospel of Christ Jesus from heaven”. I Corinthians 9:16-17, ”For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel! 17. For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.”
Why do you continue to disbelieve an Apostle commissioned by our Savior God? Will that set well with Christ in that day?
Jesus Christ tells us in John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Yes the whole world knows that today, but they didn’t in that day that Jesus spoke it. They did not understand those words then, and these words were spoken only to His own, and no heathen knew of such a thing for they were never told. The first we know of any preaching such as this is after Christ spoke to Paul from heaven. John’s book was written close to 35 years after the death of Paul. John’s Gospel confirms what Paul preached, and wrote. This is the gospel that Christ from heaven gave to Paul.
The Holy Ghost when come to the Apostles brought to mind things Jesus spoke, but some things could not be explained until after Damascus Road.
These words by Jesus Christ are inclusive, the world, and promise everlasting life to whosoever believes in him. He had these words recorded for all humanity. Those who believe in Him were saved never to be lost. That is the Eternal Security of the Believer or in Baptist parlance once saved always saved.
I believe and teach every word for Christ Jesus spoke them. But when did all this become effective? It could not be understood or applied until God was ready. I Corinthians 2:4-8, ”And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the spirit and of power: 5. That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. 6. Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8. Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.”
I’m sure you will understand when I say I will believe the Word of God instead of yours. Nobody had any idea of what Jesus was talking about, Not His Apostles, His mother, relatives, the faithful, the unfaithful, or even Satan. God kept hidden how He would defeat Satan, and that is why no one was allowed to understand what Jesus said in Parable or of heavenly things.
Today we know (or should) these things, for there are letters written to us, personal letters with information not before known. You are “Monday morning quarterbacking”, for you now know what was not known before.
Jesus Christ further tells us in John 10:27-30
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
30. I and my Father are one.
Who are His sheep? He tells you, but you won’t believe Him. His sheep is the nation Israel, and no one else. You evidently still have not read the book of Matthew, but if so you skipped certain parts that are not covered in your Sunday school quarterly or devotional reading. Here it is once again. You say you believe Jesus when He was on earth, but I believe you don’t after all. ”And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. 23. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. 24. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 25. Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. 26. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. 27. And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. 28. Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.”
If you don’t believe Jesus when He spoke these words, how can you say you believe anything else He says? Also notice the woman was not saved, or preached to, but Jesus healed the Gentile woman’s daughter, but that is not His mission. He doesn’t have much time, and would have completely ignored her, just as other Gentiles tried to speak to Him, but His concern is for the Nation He created for Himself. This incident was placed in His Word for us to understand so we can correctly “divide” the Word of God, and understand this dispensation that we live in. If any today are saved under the “great commission” then all those will be saved as proselytes in the Jewish Church, and must endure until the end, inheriting the earth to be servant to the Jew forever, for today the Jew is seen as a Gentile.
Jesus Christ gives his sheep, those who believe in Him, eternal life. He further tells us that no man can pluck them out of His hand or out of His Father's hand. That is the Eternal Security of the Believer or in Baptist parlance once saved always saved.
You now teach ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED, but that is not what Jesus says. He gives them eternal life. Tell me when this eternal life becomes effective? As they live, or as His Word tells us in Hebrews 6:15, ”And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.” Isn’t this the gospel you say has always been the same. Was Abraham that was saved BY faith Once Saved Always Saved, or having endured then knew Eternal Security.
If that Is Baptist understanding then it is wrong. This is contradicting the Word of God. Some may believe as you, but others do not. You know, there are a lot of Baptist, and very few actually all believe the same thing, other than believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. So being saved, what we are discussing has no bearing on our salvation, but we find peace in Christ when we know we are now saved, and sealed in.
It is obvious that you do not believe these Scripture or you would not continue to prattle about Paul's gospel that Jesus Christ revealed to him from heaven. The Apostle Paul himself tells us in Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Nothing there about the gospel of Paul. In fact he has told us earlier in Romans 1:1-3
The gospel of Jesus on earth, is not the gospel of our Living Christ that is in heaven seated next to His Father, on the right hand side. Paul was not conversant with the earthly gospel of Jesus and was trying to destroy it, as he did not understand it. What did Christ do? He gave Paul a new gospel that will be added onto the gospel that Peter and the other Apostles had. This gospel given to Paul had been kept hidden from the beginning. Witness a new gospel, and who was given it – ”But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.” We either believe Christ from heaven or we don’t. All I can do is present the gospel of Christ Jesus from heaven from our Savior God.
1. Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2. (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3. Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Paul in this passage tells us that he was called to be an Apostle and separated unto the Gospel of God concerning His Son Jesus Christ. No mention of the gospel of Paul here. He later tells us in Romans 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers; Here Paul tells us that he serves with his spirit the Gospel of God's Son. No mention of Paul's gospel here. Now how old is this Gospel of God or Jesus Christ, God the Son. The Apostle Paul tells us in Galatians 3:6-9
Didn’t Peter have a gospel? Didn’t Jesus say He would give to Peter keys of the kingdom of heaven? Peter had his gospel and it was the gospel to the Jew, and then to the Gentile of “repent and be baptized for the remission of sins”. Will you deny this? If not, then why would you deny that Christ from heaven gave to Paul a “dispensational gospel” of reconciling the whole world to God? The Gentiles will be preached to now, for Peter or the rest of that other gospel would not associate or preach to the heathen, as shown in Acts 10.
We can believe more than the earthly ministry of Jesus. If you can believe a heavenly gospel, will you not be of the heavenlies? ”Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6. Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
Amen! This is Paul explaining now that we know foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, those of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. This is the gospel of Paul. No one knew this before. If they did then would God have had a mystery hidden from the beginning? If we believe God, then we must believe salvation of the Gentile through faith was unknown, as verse 8 informs. All before from the beginning were saved byfaith, and in that salvation a work/s was required.
Paul tells us that the Gospel was preached unto Abraham. What Gospel was preached unto Abraham? Paul knew only one Gospel, the Gospel of Jesus Christ. He had earlier chastized the Galatians as follows in Galatians 1:6-9.
But doesn’t Hebrews inform Abraham was saved by faith?
6. I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Amen! Those Judaizers from Judah were telling those Gentile’s Paul’s gospel was lacking, for they must be circumcised just at they. Paul’s reply is devastating.
No mention of a gospel of Paul here only the Gospel of Jesus Christ. What does Paul say should happen to those who preach anything other than the Gospel of Jesus Christ? Let him be accursed. I remind you again of what Paul states about the Gospel in Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
They wished to pervert the gospel of Christ that Christ gave to Paul to preach to the Gentile. We must try to remember Christ Jesus spoke to Paul and taught Paul His (Christ’s) gospel. This is what we find in Paul’s Epistles, and those findings are considered the gospel of Paul. Paul is the one that tells you this, so it is up to you whether you believe Christ Jesus gave Paul his gospel. Are either of them lying?
Now ituttut, you have prattled on and on that Jesus Christ did not teach Once Saved, Always Saved that only Paul did. I have shown you above for the second time that Jesus Christ taught the Eternal Security of the Believer or as you like to say OSAS. Could you show me the Scripture where Paul explicitely teaches OSAS? Frankly I always thought this was a Baptist perversion of the Biblical doctrine of the Eternal Security of the Believer [which Jesus Christ taught in John 10:27-30] or the Perseverance of the Saints [which Jesus Christ taught is Matthew 10:22; Revelation 2:10, 17, 22; and Revelation 3:21].
I believe you find OSAS in Philippians 2:12-13, ”So then, my beloved, even as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13. for it is God who worketh in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.” We are to work out our own salvation, but cannot mean we are to try and save ourselves, for that is impossible. So when we are saved, we daily work at it for we are saved. We fight against this Old nature of ours that is in our Bodies, and we will never be able to over come this Old nature. So as our Spirit is in the Body of Christ, we know we must be Eternally Saved as we live. I Corinthians 6:15-17, ” Know ye not that your bodies are members of Christ? shall I then take away the members of Christ, and make them members of a harlot? God forbid. 16. Or know ye not that he that is joined to a harlot is one body? for, The twain, saith he, shall become one flesh. 17. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.”
I Corinthians 6:20 also puts its nicely, ”for ye were bought with a price: glorify God therefore in your body.” That gift we accepted from God is beyond price or measure, so being in the Spirit, we are to glorify God in these sinful bodies.
If we believe we have been sealed into the Body of Christ, would that convince you? Ephesians 1:13, ”in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,-- in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise”.” Christian faith to you OldRegular, ituttut
Actually ituttut it was John the Baptist who first taught about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 3:11 []I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:[/i]
Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
How about that????
</font>[/QUOTE]How about that. But does John tell you about OSAS, or was that Baptism the same after Christ had taught Paul his gospel? We all know John the Baptist first taught Jesus would baptize them in the Holy Spirit, and we see in Acts 1 where Jesus told the Apostles at Pentecost they would be baptized in the Holy Spirit. But even after this baptism, does it indicate being baptized into the Body of Christ, or being OSAS? They received the Power of the Holy Ghost. This is the “kingdom” baptism, and cannot be the same as we today for Peter was able to kill at will any that lied to the Holy Spirit, Acts 5:1-10. I wouldn’t call this being sealed into the Body of Christ Jesus.
Also to not contradict, we have to point out Peter in Acts 2 preached to the nation of Israel another baptism that must be done, and they would have to repent, and they had to be water baptized for the remission of those sins.
In other words they had to have two (2) baptisms, and nowhere with these two baptisms’ can we find they were immediately sealed in their salvation, or into the Body of Christ. Christian faith, ituttut
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Poor, poor ituttut
I posted this earlier on this thread but will post it again for your edification:
Jesus Christ tells us in John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
These words by Jesus Christ are inclusive, the world, and promise everlasting life to whosoever believes in him. He had these words recorded for all humanity. Those who believe in Him were saved never to be lost. That is the Eternal Security of the Believer or in Baptist parlance once saved always saved.
Jesus Christ further tells us in John 10:27-30
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
30. I and my Father are one.
Jesus Christ gives his sheep, those who believe in Him, eternal life. He further tells us that no man can pluck them out of His hand or out of His Father's hand. That is the Eternal Security of the Believer or in Baptist parlance once saved always saved.
I posted this earlier on this thread but will post it again for your edification:
Jesus Christ tells us in John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
These words by Jesus Christ are inclusive, the world, and promise everlasting life to whosoever believes in him. He had these words recorded for all humanity. Those who believe in Him were saved never to be lost. That is the Eternal Security of the Believer or in Baptist parlance once saved always saved.
Jesus Christ further tells us in John 10:27-30
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
30. I and my Father are one.
Jesus Christ gives his sheep, those who believe in Him, eternal life. He further tells us that no man can pluck them out of His hand or out of His Father's hand. That is the Eternal Security of the Believer or in Baptist parlance once saved always saved.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
And I answered this for you, but it is not given to you to see more than what you see, so you are to continue with what you see. Christian faith, ituttut </font>[/QUOTE]ituttut
You have answered nothing!
The only way you could answer is admit that you are wrong, repent of your false and blasphemous doctrine, and come into the light.