Prove the Pre-trib Rapture

You can use all of your Scriptures! You still can't prove from one or all a pre-trib rapture. There simply isn't any verse (or verses) in Scripture that links the rapture to a pre-trib happening!

But Jesus and Paul do link the rapture to a post-trib event - the return of Christ!

 

Paul33: "Most of your pre-trib comments are incomprehensible ... "

Paul33: "There simply isn't any verse (or verses) in Scripture that links the rapture to a pre-trib happening!"

Obviously your two statements are self-contridictory.

If i had a scripture or set of scriptures that
links the rapture to a pre-trib happening, then
you would not be able to comprehend it.
There is none so deaf has he who will not hear.
There is none so blind as he who will not hear.
There are lots who cannot comprehend.

YOu didn't understand when i said
"Again, let the Bible be your guild."

That i typed an 'ld' instead of a 'de'
so i meant: Again, let the Bible be your guile.

YOu didn't understand when i said
"Again, let the Bible be your guile."

That i typed a 'le' instead of a 'de'.
so i meant: Again, let the Bible be your guide.

What is the difference between 'hope' and
'faith'? Why are both mentioned along with
'love' here?

1Co 13:13 (Geneve Bible of 1585):
And nowe abideth faith, hope and loue,
euen these three: but the chiefest
of these is loue.

Heb 11:1 (Geneva Bible of 1585):
Now faith is the grounds of things, which are
hoped for, and the euidence of things
which are not seene.

Faith then is of things partially seen;
hope is of things which are not seen.

I hope there is a pretribulation rapture
and I hope that I am in it. I have faith
that Jesus is going to come get me and
take my soul to heaven
in either a rapture or in death. So i'll
be partaking in either a resurrection of the
just (AKA: first resurrection) or the
rapture which immediately follows.
I hope there is a pretribulation rapture
and I hope that I am in it.

Of course, i have three proofs from scriputre
of the pretribulation rapture -- all three of them
the Lord gave me AFTER i believed in the
pretrilbulation rapture/resurreciton. Most
pretrib preacher/teachers do NOT use these
three scriptures as proof of the pretribulation
rapture/resurrection.

perchance you missed this?
What do you hope for Bro Paul33. Don't get it
confused with what you believe.

 

Ed,

I'm back.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 saying nothing about the timing of Christ's coming. Neither it saying pretrib or posttrib either. 'Coming' of 2 Thess. 2:1 doesn't saying it is either pretrib or posttrib.

But, I know verse 1 is speak of posttrib coming of Christ, how can I know it? Simple, the context of 2 Thess. 2:1-3 telling us, Christ cannot come yet till we must see the two things must first come to past - 'falling away'. Falling away means apostasy, depart from truth, depart from faith. 'Falling away' never support the idea meaning of rapture, as some pretribbers interpreting, 'falling away' means rapture of the Church. This is idea from from Dr. Schuyler English. Many Christians include baptists adopt Dr. English's comment on 'falling away' is rapture.

Actually, his teaching simple a twisting intepreting. Notice the first part of verse 3 says, do not let any person to deceive you of any means. What a person deceive you of any mean? It warns us, do not believe or listen to any person teaching or talking about the timing of Christ's coming, some saying Christ's day is already arrival or anytime(vs. 2).

Apostle Paul telling us, day shall NOT come yet till we must see come a falling away FIRST. Obivously, he means that our gathering together shall not occur yet till we must see the sign of apostasy occurs first. THEN, we shall see the revealed of Antichrist.

Clearly, 2 Thess. 2:3 cannot be pretrib coming of Christ, because Paul tells us, we must see the two things first to come past before Christ comes.

Titus 2:13 does not saying that 'the blessed hope' is so called, "pretrib rapture".

The question is, what is the 'HOPE' for?

Hope is speaking of looking forward for eternal life that we are earnest and looking for.

Titus 2:13 of 'hope' is refer with Titus 1:2: and 3:7.

Without have hope, we are doomed for everlasting punishment - lake of fire.

'Blessed hope' is for salvation - eternal life. That's very simple.

'Blessed hope' is not mean that we shall escape from the coming persecution or tribulation. 'Blessed hope' means we are eager or earnest looking for have eternal life and become immortality body at Christ's coming.

Blessed hope shall be at Christ's coming.

I hope that you understand clear what 'hope' means.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Ed,

Also, you saying, 'I hope pretribulation rapture...'

You speak of it sounds like as your fingers sign, "R" for 'I hope so'. That is kind of a little doubting. Also, kind of weak faith.

The true meaning of 'hope' means having surely confidenced, and know for sure, no doubt.

Actually, you have to be aware that there is no proof of pretrib find anywhere in the Bible. Because there are so overwhelming evidences in the Bible telling us that Christ shall come again right after tribulation, obivsouly it is posttrib coming.

Matthew 24:29-31 is the most powerful passage evidence for posttrib coming. Because Christ telling us, He shall come again "immediately AFTER the tribulation...". Clearly, he means that He shall come again after tribulation, He does not saying, He shall come again before tribulation.

In other word, if suppose Christ saying He shall come again "Before" tribulation of Matt. 24:29. That would be nice for us to be rapture first before tribulation. But it is not find in there. Nothing saying find anywhere in the Bible saying Christ shall come again before tribulation.

Again, there is no promise in the Bible that we shall escape from persecutions and tribulations.

Apostle Paul telling us of Acts 14:22, that we must go through MUCH tribulations enter into the kingdom of heaven. Obivously, Apostle Paul, himself was a posttribber.

You have to accept what Christ and Paul saying on the timing of Christ's coming. Believe and follow God's Word.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

DeafPosttrib: "Hope is speaking of looking forward for eternal life that we are earnest and looking for."

I know you insecure believers 'hope' for eternal life.
We Secure Believers don't hope for eternal life we
have faith "the substance of things hoped for" about
eternal life through Jesus -- Secure Believers KNOW
they have eternal life. Remember, without faith you
can never KNOW you have eternal life until it is
over, but eternal life is never over. So when
you are a Secure Believers, you faith/know that you
have eternal life RIGHT NOW, the Kingdon of God within
you.

Hope is barefoot faith.
Faith is hope with shoes on!

 

Don't be so hard on the word "hope" Ed - its got good Bible verses to help it along!

Acts 26:6
And now I am standing trial for the hope of the promise made by God to our fathers;
NASU

Rom 5:5
and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
NASU

Rom 15:13
Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.
NASU

Heb 6:19
This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and steadfast and one which enters within the veil
NASU

1 Peter 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead
NASU

 

Good thoughts, post-trib.

If anyone can make any sense out of Ed's comments to me, would you be so kind as to explain it to me!

 

I have no
respect for your continued harassment
in regards to Darby and Scofield neither of
whom are responsible. Take it up with the
Holy Spirit that worked with
me about this Biblical material
with me over a 40-year period. BTW, there is
no way that this process can be construed
as "new revelation" -- it is only an understanding
of existing revelation in modern day terms.

I apologize if you are offended by what
the Holy Spirit has shown me that the Holy
Bible says about the future. Out of respect
for Christ i recommend you can take
that up with the boss and NOT with the kind
folk on this board.

Now let me read you the riot act about
your understanding of scripture and my
understanding of scripture:
----------------------------------------
I believe the Bible is the
inerrant written words of God.
It is nonsense for me to
believe that my understanding
of all the Bible is inerrant.

You believe your Bible is the
inerrant written words of God.
It is nonsense for me to
believe that your understanding
of all your Bible is inerrant.

Surely i have respect enough for my
Brother in Christ that i will allow you your
opinion. If further you believe your
opinion, i will allow that also.
But i will receive the same consideration
for my opinion/belief.
I am speaking of my opinion of what the Bible
said versus your opinion of what the Bible said.
What the Bible said is true, what
the Bible means is your opinion or
is my opinion.
Don't get your opinion of what the Bible meant
get confused with what the Bible said.
------------------------------------

'Hour' means what 'hour' and in prophetic
writing 'hour' means 'the appropriate time.
'Last Trumpet' means 'Last Trumpet' and i can
show you 6,000,000 'last trumpets'.

And by the way, the last trumpet of this age
will be the first trumpet my dear brother
DeafPosttrib will hear (with his new improved
body).
So it can then be said that the first will
be last and the last will be first

 

Thank you Brother Paul of Eugene.

I thought earlier i specifed using
1 Cornithians 13:13 that the Bible is either
redundant or there is a difference between
'hope' and 'faith'. But i'm some 18
notes-to-type-up behind, so it may be in there.

Oh yes, i need to add to my list of wierd things
anti-pretribbers do:

6. Act dumb, like they don't understand.

Open question to Paul33:
What does your dictionary say 'day' means?
I suspect if you ofer 10 or a dozen different
meanings of 'day' that it does not explain
the 48-hour eartlhy day

And i suspect if you can't grasp
the concept(s) of earthly
days, you will really have problems with
a heavenly 'day'.

 

Ed Ed

Same song, umpteenth verse, a little longer and a little worse!

 

If I could sing I would sing it but my hope is in:

1. the return of Jesus Christ in power and great glory with His Bride, the New Jerusalem;
2. the resurrection of all the dead;
3. the union of the resurrected bodies of the Saints with those souls whom return with Jesus Christ;
4. the glorification of the living Saints;
5. the Great White Throne Judgment, when Jesus Christ will separate His Sheep from Satans goats and then cast Satan and his goats into the lake of fire;
6. the creation of the New Heavens and New Earth;
7. and eternity spent in the presence of the Triune God.

It can't get any better than that.

 

It does get better than
that!

You can have the 'faith' that,
you will NOT be invited to the
GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT. For you are a sheep
and only goats will be invited to the GREAT WHITE
THRONE JUDGEMENT.

Here are the five judgements.
----------------------------------
Five Judgements

The Lord God is a judging God

"To judge" can mean three things in the Holy Bible:

A. to discern between good and evil (human function)
B. to condemn, usually falsely (human function)
C. to reward the just & punish the evil (Godly function)

The Five Judgements:

1. Believers for SIN on the Cross
WHO: All who will Believe
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a merciful God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

How to get from judgement 1 to judgement 2
(and avoid judgements 3, 4, or 5):

Romans 10:9 (KJV): "That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved."

2. Judgement Seat of Christ
WHO: Believers for works
WHEN: during the Great Tribulation on earth;
Right after the Rapture/Resurrection that starts
the Tribulation
WHERE: Heaven
WHY: to assign rewards (including
the Millinnial Kingdom rest)
to the redeemed for their good works
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

3. Judgement of Yisrael under Antichrist
(Ezekiel 22:17-22 Time of Jacob's Trouble; Ezekiel 20:34-38;
Jeremiah 30:1-24; Revelation 6-19)
WHO: Yisrael
WHEN: during the Tribulation
WHERE: earth
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Great Tribulation

4. Throne of His Glory judgement
(AKA: Sheep and Goats judgement, Matthew 25:31-46)
WHO: the nations: the living survivers of the Great Tribulation
(these people are NOT saved, they are human in human bodies)
WHEN: after the Great Tribulation, before the Millennial Age
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises: God will bless those
who bless Yisrael and curse those who curse Yisrael
HOW: Judged by their treatment of Yisrael
WHAT: the cursed to Hell; the blessed to the Millennial Age

5. Great White Throne judgement
WHO: the wicked dead
WHEN: after the Millennial Age; before endless ages
WHERE: between Hell and the Lake of Fire
WHY: The Lord God is not mocked
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: the Messiah rejectors consigned to endless punishment

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
judgements above does not preclude other specific
or general judgements. One place on the net i found
a chart where TWENTY-FOUR judgements were delineated.
The Lord God is a judging God and His hand is not shortened
by His revelation to us nor
by our understaning of His revelation to us.

May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!

--compilation by ed,
incurable Jesus Phreaque
----------------------------
The Statement of OldRegular seems to confuse the


4. Throne of His Glory judgement
(AKA: Sheep and Goats judgement, Matthew 25:31-46)

and the

5. Great White Throne judgement

 

Ed Ed

Can't you get as many judgments as you can Last Trumpets, millions? There is only one Scriptural Last Trumpet and One Scriptural Judgment. It is not I who am confused but you, even after 40 years of Bible Study.

 

The Apostle Paul Tells us in Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

It can't get any better than that.

In case you are still confused the Apostle John tells us in 1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

What more can one hope for?????

 

Oh yes, it can.

What if you are glorified IN CHRIST this
very day? It can happen at the pretribulation
rapture/resurrection. There is nothing left
that HAS to happen before the pretribulation
rapture - much that has to happen prior
to a post-tribualtion rapture.

Are you going to be disappointed if
God doesn't call you to die a martyr?

 

Notes on when will the bride be taken

It has been commonly taught that the bride of Christ will be gathered to the Lord Jesus Christ just before the start of the seven-year tribulation period in the book of revelation. A number of scripture that many teachers have used to justify this error of teaching are as follows;
1. Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter.
Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

They state that when John says he heard a voice say, " Come up hither", that this therefore refers to the bride of Christ. But scripture clearly shows it to be John who was caught up in the Spirit and that there is no mention of the bride here.

2. Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
They teach here that this verse means that the bride will be raptured taken out of the time of temptation (which is also known as choosing to accept or reject the mark of the beast Rev 14:6-13). But scripture tells us that God will keep them from the hour of temptation, not take them from it. The word keep in Greek means;
G5083 τηρέω, te¯reo¯, tay-reh'-o. a watch, to guard , by keeping the eye upon. When all of humanity in the world goes through the hour of temptation to either accept or reject the mark of the beast, the saints will be kept by God through it, God will as the Greek says watch and Gaurd them and that is from spiritual loss or injury to their souls for it is written;
1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

3. Rev 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
Rev 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth forever and ever.
It is commonly taught that the bride of Christ is known in verse 11 as the elders. But scripture tells us that they are elders not the bride, and that there are only 24 elders not tens thousands times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands. The tens of thousands here are the angels of God as scripture makes clear by showing in verse 14 that there are only 24 elders. Scripture shows us clearly when we will be resurrected in the air to our Lord and for the marriage of the Lamb, let us look.
Rev 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
Rev 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Rev 18:5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
Rev 18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
Rev 18:7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
Rev 18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
Rev 18:9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
Rev 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
Rev 18:11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
Rev 18:12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
Rev 18:13 And cinnamon, and odors, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.
Rev 18:14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.
Rev 18:15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
Rev 18:16 And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
Rev 18:17 For in one hour so great riches is come to naught. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
Rev 18:18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
Rev 18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
Rev 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
Rev 18:22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Here we read that babylon is fallen; Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
Rev 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

This will happen after the mark is accepted by the world and rejected by the true saints of Christ. The punishment to the world for receiving this mark will be the wrath of God as the angel pronounces before Babylon is judged;

Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Rev 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

These plagues of the seven bowls of Gods wrath will come in one day in one hour ;
Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Rev 18:17 For in one hour so great riches is come to naught. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
Rev 18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
The seven plagues of Gods wrath must never be mistaken for the seven trumpets. These are separate events.
The greatest proof that the bride of Christ will not be resurrected till after babylon is judged with the seven last plagues is the fact that the elders and the voice from the throne of God bear witness to this, let us look;

Rev 18:17 For in one hour so great riches is come to naught. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
Rev 18:18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
Rev 18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

Here we read that Babylon has been judged and that they saw her smoke burning.

Rev 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honor, and power, unto the Lord our God:
Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
Rev 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up forever and ever.
Rev 19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshiped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

Here we read that even all the saints in time past that have gone before and the elders and the beasts rejoice over babylon being judged by telling us that God hath ( hath being in past tense ) judged her. Verse 2 did not say "will judge her but hath judged her". This is very important to notice because after we are told that the whore hath been judged and that her smoke rose up for ever straight after these sayings in chapter 19 we are told that a voice of a great multitude and of many waters announce that the marriage of the Lamb is come and His wife hath made herself ready. This is clearly after Babylon has been judged and not before.

Rev 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honor to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

We are also told that that she should be arrayed in fine linen;

Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

The saints putting on this fine linen after babylon is judged as scripture tells us, is also seen in these following passages of scripture;

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Paul quotes this saying out of the book of Isaiah. In the book of Isaiah this verse is quoted clearly after the judgement of babylon as well, chapters 24;25;and 26; are clearly about the judgement of babylon and the Lord coming for His people Israel and the saints that are left for it is written; 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together.

Isa 25:2 For thou hast made of a city a heap; of a defensed city a ruin: a palace of strangers to be no city; it shall never be built.
Isa 25:8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

After the whore is judged and the Lord gathers His bride then comes the battle of Armageddon;

Isa 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
Isa 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshiped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

In conclusion to this, we are told clearly in scripture In Rev 19; that the marriage of the Lamb and His bride (which is also known as the resurrection) will not be till after Babylon is judged and that is after the bowls of Gods wrath are poured out on Babylon, which is the world. The saints of God will not be going through the wrath of God but they will be killed for not receiving the mark as is written;
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow them.

To have your head cut of or die for not taking the mark is not the wrath of God it is as Paul says;

2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

And as John tells us he heard;
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Many this present day in Christ die an example of this is as follows;
Brought to you by The Voice of the Martyrs
Damare, a small Sudanese boy was taken as a slave and forced to tend camels after his village was attacked by radical Muslims. One day Damare, who had been raised in a Christian home, snuck away from his master to attend a church service. When he returned, his Muslim master was waiting for him and accused of committing a deadly act, "meeting with infidels." The master then dragged Damare into a field where he nailed his feet and knees into a large board while the boy cried out in agony.

Damare was miraculously rescued and has told The Voice of the Martyrs that just as Jesus was nailed and forgave, he forgives also. What bold faith from a simple Sudanese boy!

Damare is not alone in the persecution he has endured. The Muslim government of Khartoum in the North has declared a jihad, or holy war, against the mostly Christian South. Omar Hassan al-Turabi, an Islamic leader, has stated that anyone who opposes Islam "has no future." Since 1985, approximately two million have perished due to the genocide. Families in the South are terrorized-fathers killed, mothers raped, and children sold into slavery. Yet in the midst of these atrocities, the Christians in Sudan remains strong, worshiping their Savior and leading others to Him. Thankfully, in recent months the onslaughts have begun to subside and peace talks are on the table.
The accepting of the mark will be the result of what we are told in the scriptures, it will show who is of the Lord and who is not. Many who were thought to be of Christ will accept this mark they are commonly know as the inward Judas.The mark will cause many families to be divided and put to death by betrayal of loved ones thought to be of Christ.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

Brothers and sisters please see the facts, we will not be gathered to the Lord till after Babylon is judged. It must be remembered that saints not accepting the mark is not the wrath of God. The wrath of God is when Babylon is judged. A further and more complete doctrine of this is presently being worked on, I do hope this little piece of manna has been help to many. Yours in Christ brother Graham Sly.

 

Ed Ed ED

I can't believe that anyone who claims to have experienced the Grace of God in Salvation and has studied Scripture for 40 years would say that it can get better than:

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. and

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

I feel for you but apparently even Scripture can't reach you.

If God calls me home today that is His perogative and I will praise Him eternally. If God chooses that I suffer, either from trials or persecution, before He calls me home that is His perogative and I will praise Him eternally. If God chooses that I suffer a martyr's death that is His perogative and I will praise Him eternally.

Apparently God in the near term has chosen that I try to reach the pretribbers who either fear death or whatever our God of Great Grace and Salvation has in store for them. That cross I gladly bear though it bears little fruit. In all and all may the Great Triune God and our Savior be praised.

[ August 14, 2005, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: OldRegular ]

 

I hate sin: //It has been commonly taught that the bride of Christ will be gathered to the Lord Jesus Christ just before the start of the seven-year tribulation period in the book of revelation. A number of scripture that many teachers have used to justify this error of teaching are as follows;
1. Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter.
Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

//They state that when John says he heard a voice say, " Come up hither", that this therefore refers to the bride of Christ. But scripture clearly shows it to be John who was caught up in the Spirit and that there is no mention of the bride here.//

This is simple to argue the pretribulation rapture.
The claim of the pretribs is that Revelation 4:1
is a TYPE of the pretribulation rapture NOT the pretribulation
rapture itself.

Opinions vary over wheather or not Revealation 1-3
is about the church age or a future age.
But surely the grabbing up of John into heaven is
JUST LIKE what will happen to the pretribulation
raptured folks!!

 

David Ekstrom: "The pretrib Rature involves adding a whole
other layer to the events. ... "

That seems a strange thing to say when i've only
presented 20% of the data that i've collected about what
the Bible presents on the Rapture, it's timing, and
related subjects ???

Personally i think you (plural) are playing a psychological game
of 'damned if you do - damned if you don't' with me

Please determine if the group who wishes to disprove the
pre-tribulation Rapture of the living saints - do they
want to gripe about:

1. Ed doesn't have enough facts
2. Ed has two many facts.

I think the two cases are mutually exclusive.

I should warn you that in the early 1970s (1970+)
I had a liscnse to teach Logic in the Secondary
Schools of the State of Oklahoma. I know what 'proof'
means. In the strictest sense of 'proof' i cannot prove
that the pre-tribulation rapture MUST occur.
(By the same token, nobody can prove that the pre-tribulation
rapture WILL NOT happen)

But i sure have a lot more Bible evidence and secular
evidence that the Mind of God is directed toward
the deliverance of His Gentile Age Saints.
Jesus is going to come get me. This can happen if
i die in the pretribulation at the pretribulation
rapture. This might happen (and i hope so) that i might
be alive when Jesus comes to get His own at
the pretribulation Rapture.

Yep, Jesus is coming to rapture somebody before the
70th week of Daniel, the end of the Gentile Age (AKA:
Chruch Age), before the Tribulation Period, before
the Wrath of God is poured out on the earth
(but not on God's saints).

 

Ed,

"(By the same token, nobody can prove that the pre-tribulation rapture WILL NOT happen)"

Jesus can and did! He stated to his disciples, the founders of HIS CHURCH, that they would not be gathered by the angels until after the tribulation.

Now, we must believe Ed over the very words of Jesus? Apparently, it is Ed's interpretation of the Bible that is inerrant because 1) the Holy Spirit taught it to him over 40 years, and 2) he had a license to teach logic in Oklahoma. I guess that settles it!