Prove the Pre-trib Rapture

I'm just sad, according to Dave's quote, that Augustine said anyone reading Daniel even half asleep would know that the Antichrist is going to persecute the church.

Cheers, Bluefalcon

 

I got a copy of Augustine's book THE CITY OF GOD.
It is only half the book. The eschatological
half of the book is MISSING

Deaf Posttrib: "Word, 'church' is not find anywhere from
Revelation chapter 4 through chapter 19 is a weak argument.

How many 'weak arugments' does it take to make one
one 'strong argument'?

Non-Biblical Weak Argument #147 of 226:

In 1987 I was taking on the proto-internet to a Jewish
rabinical student from New York City. Praise Hashem*
he would talk to me, a gentile: he found safetry from being
contaminated by me, a gentile, because of the two screens.

"Hashem" means 'the name', you know the Tetragrammon, the
four letter name of G-d, the name that is too sacred to say.
(Even the job title "G-d" is written 'different' out of
defferance to the Majesty and Glory of Hashem!!!)

Anyway, I asked him what would be the unmistakable sign(s)
that would be used to determine who the Messiah was, when
Messiah Comes.

Here is the Religious Conservative Jewish teaching on what
Messiah will do when He comes. Whoever will do this will be
Messiah:

1. bring peace to Yisrael
2. restore the daily sacrifice
3. rebuild the Temple on Temple Mount

The Daily sacrifice requires only the Alter of Burnt
Offereing (See Exodus 27) on a flat rock -- both these elements
are outside the Temple Building which houses the Holy Place
and the Holy of Holies.

Aren't these three things exactly what Antichrist will do
to fool the Israeli Jews? The daily sacrifice can be given
daily until the Temple is built. I believe at mid-trib
the Antichrist will, perchance at the dedication of the Temple,
enter the Temple and declare that he is god. When he does this,
millions of Jews will be saved seeing that Jesus (the rejected
cornerstone) is the true Jewish Messiah (and not that Antichrist guy).

In fact, this is the purpose of the Tribulation Period - so Jesus
can save the maximum number of Jews. There are 18,000,000 racial Jews in
the world today.

 

If all the Christians and the Holy Spirit are taken out of the world who is going to witness to all these Jews?

 

If all the Christians and the Holy Spirit are taken out of the world who is going to witness to all these Jews? </font>[/QUOTE]Good question. Who's going to win these 144,000 Jews to the Lord, the Jews that are to be sealed on their foreheads, if no Christians are around? And further, who's going to win the first Christian during the tribulation? One conjecture is that the Church has made such an impression on the world, and all the Christian material will still be left behind after the rapture, and then many will read it and say, "By Jove, it was here all the time and we missed it!" and then they will repent and get saved. Another conjecture is that the 144,000 are getting saved before the rapture but will be left behind by the express purpose of God to remain during the tribulation to carry out his will. God has had special plans for Israel in the past, and he still has special plans for Israel in the future!

Maybe Ed has a better explanation?

Cheers, Bluefalcon

 

If all the Christians and the Holy Spirit are taken out of the world who is going to witness to all these Jews? </font>[/QUOTE]Good question. Who's going to win these 144,000 Jews to the Lord, the Jews that are to be sealed on their foreheads, if no Christians are around? And further, who's going to win the first Christian during the tribulation? One conjecture is that the Church has made such an impression on the world, and all the Christian material will still be left behind after the rapture, and then many will read it and say, "By Jove, it was here all the time and we missed it!" and then they will repent and get saved. Another conjecture is that the 144,000 are getting saved before the rapture but will be left behind by the express purpose of God to remain during the tribulation to carry out his will. God has had special plans for Israel in the past, and he still has special plans for Israel in the future!

Maybe Ed has a better explanation?

Cheers, Bluefalcon </font>[/QUOTE]I would also like to add families. How many children accept Christ, and their parents haven't, or the other way around? My mother in law is not a believer, and we have witnessed to her, even let her read material on salvation. Even though she hasn't accepted Christ yet, if my wife and I vanish, she just might go back to what we gave her.

I just thought about something else. How many priests and pastors of churches "profess" to be saved and really aren't? If the rapture did come, and their congregation's started vanishing leaving them behind, they may be the first to repent and preach the REAL gospel then!

 

In Chapter 7 we see the 144,000 Jews
in Heaven with the rest of the raptured
Gentile Age Saints (mostly gentiles, but
some Messianic Jews);
in Chapter 14 we see them on the earth
serving Jesus in the midst of the Great
Tribulation/Wrath.

Obviously there are about 200,000,000+
saved people RIGHT NOW, some of whom are
witnessing to these 144,000, prior to
the pretribulation rapture/resurrection.

Service with/for Christ in the Tribulation
Period is one of the gifts given in heaven
for those to whom Jesus would give them.
Thus at the Bema Seat of Jesus, when the
Christian/Messanic Jew rewards are given,
some Messanic Jews will be rewarded by
being part of the the 144,000

 

If all the Christians and the Holy Spirit are taken out of the world who is going to witness to all these Jews? </font>[/QUOTE]Good question. Who's going to win these 144,000 Jews to the Lord, the Jews that are to be sealed on their foreheads, if no Christians are around? And further, who's going to win the first Christian during the tribulation? One conjecture is that the Church has made such an impression on the world, and all the Christian material will still be left behind after the rapture, and then many will read it and say, "By Jove, it was here all the time and we missed it!" and then they will repent and get saved. Another conjecture is that the 144,000 are getting saved before the rapture but will be left behind by the express purpose of God to remain during the tribulation to carry out his will. God has had special plans for Israel in the past, and he still has special plans for Israel in the future!

Maybe Ed has a better explanation?

Cheers, Bluefalcon </font>[/QUOTE]If the 144,000 are saved before the Church is removed then they are part of the Church and would also be removed. The truth is there is no pretrib removal of the Church!

 

I think it's fairly clear from 7:1-3 that the angels doing the sealing of the 144,000 are "on" or "about" the earth, making it seem that the 144,000 must also be on the earth, not in heaven. Also, why would the angel care about not damaging the earth until the 144,000 are sealed unless the 144,000 were actually on the earth? If they were in heaven, let all fire and brimstone break loose on the earth, because the 144,000, were they in heaven, would not be affected anyway. Rev. 7:9 marks a change in the revelation regarding location, which obviously is in heaven.

Cheers, Bluefalcon

 

I conceed, it takes place on earth, the sealing
of the 144,000. But it happens right after
the Pretribulation Rapture. It is part of the
reward system. Most of the Bema awards
ceremony takes place in Heaven.

 

Paul33: "Ed can't even agree with
Jesus' own words in Matthew 24! tee hee!"

Here is a correct statement:
Ed can't agree with anti-pretrib twists of
Jesus'es own words in Matthew 24.

 

If all the Christians and the Holy Spirit are taken out of the world who is going to witness to all these Jews? </font>[/QUOTE]Good question. Who's going to win these 144,000 Jews to the Lord, the Jews that are to be sealed on their foreheads, if no Christians are around? And further, who's going to win the first Christian during the tribulation? One conjecture is that the Church has made such an impression on the world, and all the Christian material will still be left behind after the rapture, and then many will read it and say, "By Jove, it was here all the time and we missed it!" and then they will repent and get saved. Another conjecture is that the 144,000 are getting saved before the rapture but will be left behind by the express purpose of God to remain during the tribulation to carry out his will. God has had special plans for Israel in the past, and he still has special plans for Israel in the future!

Maybe Ed has a better explanation?

Cheers, Bluefalcon </font>[/QUOTE]If the 144,000 are saved before the Church is removed then they are part of the Church and would also be removed. The truth is there is no pretrib removal of the Church! </font>[/QUOTE]Who said the 144k were saved prior to the church being removed? They will clearly be saved after the rapture, or else they would have been part of the rapture.

 

If all the Christians and the Holy Spirit are taken out of the world who is going to witness to all these Jews? </font>[/QUOTE]Good question. Who's going to win these 144,000 Jews to the Lord, the Jews that are to be sealed on their foreheads, if no Christians are around? And further, who's going to win the first Christian during the tribulation? One conjecture is that the Church has made such an impression on the world, and all the Christian material will still be left behind after the rapture, and then many will read it and say, "By Jove, it was here all the time and we missed it!" and then they will repent and get saved. Another conjecture is that the 144,000 are getting saved before the rapture but will be left behind by the express purpose of God to remain during the tribulation to carry out his will. God has had special plans for Israel in the past, and he still has special plans for Israel in the future!

Maybe Ed has a better explanation?

Cheers, Bluefalcon </font>[/QUOTE]If the 144,000 are saved before the Church is removed then they are part of the Church and would also be removed. The truth is there is no pretrib removal of the Church! </font>[/QUOTE]Who said the 144k were saved prior to the church being removed? They will clearly be saved after the rapture, or else they would have been part of the rapture. </font>[/QUOTE]Then my originial question remains unanswered.

If all the Christians and the Holy Spirit are taken out of the world who is going to witness to all these Jews?

Can you answer it?

 

Perhaps the angels will do the witnessing and the sealing to those that accept the calling.

Similar to the what happened with Gabriel and Mary in Luke 1

1:38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

 

Or, the same way that God did with the Jews in the O.T.

 

Pretribulation teaches, 144,000 Jewish evnaglists shall preaching the gospel over the world after the rapture of the church occured. Hal Lindsey says, Church fails to spreading the gospel over the world, so, when Church gones, 144,000 will replaced Church, to preaching the gospel over the world, many will become saved during tribulation period.

Early in my Christian life, I thought the book of Revelation written into chronology order. My early beliefs of Revelation's chronology order:

First seal to seventh seal - first of 3 1/2 years of seven year tribulation period

first trumpet to seventh trumpet - during in the middle of seven year tribulation period

first vial to seventh vial - last 3 1/2 years of seven year tribulation period.

Now, I realized, the book of Revelation is written as retelling the events, not chronology order.

Few years ago, I asked a deaf pastor, he is an independent fundamental baptist, also pretrib/premill. Is the book of Revelation written into chronological order? He told me, no these are repeat and retelling events. I agreed with him. He is right.

I believe Revelation chapter 7 and chapter 14 both are deal about the harvest of the world at the end of the world.

How do I know?

Firstly, read Revelation chapter 6 talking about seals. Pretrib believes seals are not yet opening right now, Christ still hold them up in the heaven. They believe seals shall be opened by follow after the rapture of the church - Revelation chapter 4. Pretrib's intepreting of Revelation chapter 4 to 7 is much of misunderstanding and errors.

My understanding of Revelation chapter 4 and 5 deal about the introducing of the throne of God in the heaven, and the activity in the heaven. Revelation chapter 4 and 5 are right now happening, it already happened thousands years ago. Rev. 4:1-2 is speaking of John's personal experince with the vision, as he was moved by the Holy Spirit. John was asked by the angel to come up to see the things in the heaven. He was the only one person, who was asked by the angel, not Church(multitude). Rev. 4:1-2 do nothing with rapture or second coming either. This is speak of John's vision, as he was moved by the Holy Spirit, to see the things in the heaven, what they are doing up there right now.

The seals of Revelation chapter 6 deals with the signs down on the earth, what these are happening right now. I believe 5 seals of chapter 6 are already opened and happening right now.

I found there are parallel of 5 seals with Matthew 24:4-26. Both are fit together so beautifully.

Matthew 24:4-14 of the signs are happening right now since Early Church to today. I believe Matthew 24:15-21 is not yet occur to come in the near future. Partial preterists believe Matt. 24:15-21 alreadt fulfilled in 70 A.D. I disagree with them. First, I already know the history telling us, the destruction of Jersualem in year 70 A.D. by Roman army already happened. But, I consider, Matthew 24:15-21 is still yet to be occur in the future.

Fifth seal is already happening right now since Early Church, because of millions of Christians are already suffering and killed by persecutions. Today, millions of Christians are still persecuting out over the world, mostly in the Middle East.

Sixth seal of Rev. 6:12-15 is not yet occured. Sixth seal is fit with Matt. 24:29-30 speak of cosmic disturbance. Sixth seal shall be occured at the end of the world. When the sixth seal occured. THEN, Revelation chapter 7 mentioned about 144,000 shall be gathering together. Notice the numbered of the 12 tribes of Israel, all of them are 12,000 each. Are all are exactly numbered? My understanding of these are symbolically numbers. Suppose, we believed all numbered of the 12 tribes of Israel of each are 12,000 are literal. Then, what about Rev. 7:19-17 saying, 'multitude'? Rev. 7:9-17 pictured about the harvest of the 144,000 is rapture at the end of the world.

Same with Revelation chapter 14. Chapter 14 explaing the identify of 144,000 more clear. Rev. 14:3 says, "And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, AND the elders(these are not "Church", but angelic beings), and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were REDEEMED from the earth." Verse 3 tells us, 144,000 which were REDEEMED from the earth, to my understanding of it speaks of they shall be delivered from the evil world system.

Look next verse - Rev. 14:4 explains more clear: "These are they which were NOT DEFILED WITH WOMEN; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were REDEEMED from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb."

Pretrib teaches all 144,000 are male Jewish evangelists, because of "they which were not defiled with WOMEN". Their bad habit of their interpreting this vers einto literally. I understand Rev. 14:4a speaks of these who are not compromised with the evil world system. How do I know? Revelation chapter 17 and 18 talking about the Mother of the Harlot Babylon. That is talking about wicked world system, God warned us, that we must come OUT of her-Rev. 18:4. Bible commanded us that we must be virgin. That means, our living should be pure and holy, and to be spearated from the world.

Rev. 14:4 tells us, they are delivered out of the people('men')means they shall be delievered out from the unbelievers or sinners is the picture of rapture. As it called 144,000, 'the firstfruits of Christ'. We are the firstfruits according 1 Cor. 15:23 "But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward they that ARE Christ'S at his coming."

The context of Revelation chapter 14 talking about the harvest of the world at the end of the world.

Both Revelation chapter 7 and 14 are talking about the gathering of the believers out of the world is the picture of the rapture.

Notice Rev. 14:15 says, "And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy SICKLE, and reap: for the TIME is COME for theee to reap; FOR THE HEARVEST OF THE EARTH IS RIPE.

Cealr, this verse is speak of the harvest of the world is the picture of rapture at Christ's coming at the end of the world. Same with Matthew chapter 13 and Matt. 25:31-46 too.

Bible teaches us, there is the only ONE future harvest of the world, not two or three according pretribulation's teaching.

Both Revelation 7 and 14 saying nothing that the 144,000 shall evangelizing the gospel over the world, as 'replaced Church'. Neither, both chapter saying all 144,000 are "Jews".

We have to be realized that the book of Revelation is full of symbolic and figurative. That why we have to be careful what we read and interpreting. Many of us easily misunderstanding what the book of Revelation is all talking about.

We are the 144,000, because we are the 'firstfruits of Christ' according 1 Cor. 15:23. Bible commands us that we must be separate from the wicked world system. And we must be virgin, means we must be living pure and holy to be likeness Christ.

I hope that you understand what I am talking about.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

If all the Christians and the Holy Spirit are taken out of the world who is going to witness to all these Jews? </font>[/QUOTE]Good question. Who's going to win these 144,000 Jews to the Lord, the Jews that are to be sealed on their foreheads, if no Christians are around? And further, who's going to win the first Christian during the tribulation? One conjecture is that the Church has made such an impression on the world, and all the Christian material will still be left behind after the rapture, and then many will read it and say, "By Jove, it was here all the time and we missed it!" and then they will repent and get saved. Another conjecture is that the 144,000 are getting saved before the rapture but will be left behind by the express purpose of God to remain during the tribulation to carry out his will. God has had special plans for Israel in the past, and he still has special plans for Israel in the future!

Maybe Ed has a better explanation?

Cheers, Bluefalcon </font>[/QUOTE]If the 144,000 are saved before the Church is removed then they are part of the Church and would also be removed. The truth is there is no pretrib removal of the Church! </font>[/QUOTE]Who said the 144k were saved prior to the church being removed? They will clearly be saved after the rapture, or else they would have been part of the rapture. </font>[/QUOTE]Then my originial question remains unanswered.

If all the Christians and the Holy Spirit are taken out of the world who is going to witness to all these Jews?

Can you answer it? </font>[/QUOTE]Bluefalcon, Ed and myself did answer it, but you blatantly skipped over them and reposted your question. Go back and read the answers instead of falsely claiming noone answered your question.

 

webdog,

Please read my recent post repeat carefully.

 

DeafPosttrib: "Pretribulation teahces ... "
"Hal Lindsey says ... "

Hal doesn't post here.
You are loosing the debate to me, not to Hal.
Please talk about what i say. Thank you.

Old Regular & Web Dog.
I cannot indulge in a debate with you. I don't
know who is saying what. When you have qutoes
of quotes over 2 deep i get lost.

Old Regular at 211:57AM EDT on 19 Aug quotes
webdog quoting Old Regular quoting Blue
Falcon quoting Old Regular quoting Ed Edwards.
I can't tell who said what.

Here are some suggested posting strategies
that will enhanse your presentations:

1. write more than you quote.
2. don't quote long posts
3. don't quote the posts of others

Here is what i think maybe Old Regular said:
Old Regular: "Then my orignal question remains unanswered.
"if all the Chritians and the Holy Spirit are
taken out of the world who is going to
witness to all the Jews?"

Actually I answered your question -- obvously
not to your satisfaction and/or understanding.

The 144,000 Jews are witnessed to and saved
in the Church Age before the pretribulation
rapture/resurrection. The 144,000 Jews are
raptured/resurrected at the pretribulation
rapture . The 144,000 are rewarded at
the Bema Seat of Christ with special
service to Christ on
the Earth during the Tribulation Period.
The 144,000 will be speical witnesses to
the Jews during the Tribulation Period.

 

Consider the sequence of 9 events noted on a post made the morning of 16 AUg 05 by OldRegular:

Your sequence of events presuposes that
Revelation refers to the whole period of
the "Time of the Gentiles" (AKA: Gentile Age,
Church Age, etc.).

I asume the book of Revelation is generaly time sequential
(With minor exceptions such as summaries, etc.)
wheather in heaven or on earth.

Fore example the great earthquake of
Revelation 6:14 "every mountain and island
was moved from its place" (15.2 on the Rictor
Scale) is a different earthquake
from that at the 7th Bowl in Revelaion 16:20
"Every island fled, and the mountains
disappeared" (18.2 on the Rictor Scale).

The later earthquake is 1,000 times as great
as the former -- different earthquakes,
not different versions of the same earthquake.

 

You can pretend you answered it or even deceive yourself into believing you answered the question but you did not!