The Rapture

What is the rapture?

Is it, as one atheist web-site put it, when all the "good Christians float away"?

The answer to that question is no.

The rapture is when Jesus Christ Himself returns to gather His people to Himself.

The Bible tells us that it will occur instantly, in a moment (1Cor 15:51-52). It also tells us that dead believers will be raised (1Cor 15:52, 1Thess 4:15-17, Jn 5:28-29) and living believers will be caught up and changed (1Cor 15:52, 1Thess 4:15-17).

Therefore, based on the Scriptures above, we can paint a picture of what it will be like when the rapture occurs. There will be no warning, there will be no sign that it is about to occur. Instantly, in a moment, the Lord will descend with a shout (etc) and the dead believers will be raised, then living believers will be caught up and changed. At that point the Lord will take the raptured church to the Father's house (Jn 14:2-3) until His return (Rev 19:14). During that time the wedding feast will occur (Rev 19:7-8) and most prophecy scholars also believe the judgment of believers will occur during this time as well (and I agree).

This raises some questions:

1. When will the rapture occur in relationship with the tribulation?

==The basic Biblical facts leave us with very few options. A post-tribulational view has the serious problem of the wedding feast (Rev 19:7-8) and the returning army with Christ (Rev 19:14). There must be a gap between the rapture and the return of Christ, a gap large enough to allow these events to occur. Therefore I find it difficult to accept a view that makes the rapture and the return the same event or that puts them very close together. A mid-tribulational view is possible. However this only leaves about 3 years for the events in heaven to occur. While that is certainly enough time it seems like a longer period of time is assumed. Both the post-tribulational view and the mid-tribulational view have yet another problem: the wrath of God. The New Testament promises the church escape from all of God's wrath (1Thess 1:10, Jn 5:24, etc). Since the tribulation is the wrath of God (Rev 6:16, 15:1,7) it is difficult to see God allowing the church to remain on earth during this time. In fact it seems clear that Jesus has promised escape from this time (Lk 21:36, Rev 3:10). Therefore the pre-tribulation rapture seems to be the most logical and Biblical view point. It is, however, not without its difficulties. Therefore we can only say it is the most Biblical of the three views.

2. Will the lost world see the rapture occur?

==The Bible says it will occur in a moment. It is impossible to answer this question since the Bible does not say.

In Christ,
Martin

 

natters said:
The feast is not taking place in Rev 19:7-8, those verses only announces the marriage. Verse 9 announces the feast.

==It is still placed before the return. Also notice that the saints are rewarded before the return (vs8) and made ready (vs7) before the return. All pointing to the fact that the church (the saints) must be in heaven prior to the return. That, alone, sets aside post-tribulationalism as a real option. The other two left are the mid and pre tribulation positions. I see those as the only possible choices.

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You said:
The wrath can be directed at others without first removing the church. I can spank my son without making my daughter fly away in an airplane first.

==That is totally off the page. This is about the pouring out of God's wrath which the Bible indicates is world-wide (Rev 6:12-17, 8:3-5, Matt 24:21-22, Lk 21:34-35). The only way of escape is removal.

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You said:
Luke 21:36 says to pray to be accounted worthy. It is about your spiritual state, not what happens to you.

==I can't agree. Why? Context. In the context Jesus is talking about the tribulation period (vss25-36). In verse 36 Jesus is offering His followers "escape" from "all these things" (ie..verses 25ff). The Bible tells us that true believers are praying for, watching, and waiting for the return of the Lord and that it is they who will be delievered (Heb 9:28, Lk 21:36, etc).

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You said:
Rev 3:10 was stated to the church in Philadelphia. It was true for them even though they were not raptured. Thus it cannot require (nor should it) a rapture meaning.

==We could, of course, say the same thing about every promise in the New Testament. Do you really want to stick by your position? The promise was given to a local church however, since as you admit they were not raptured, it must apply to the church as a whole. Also God saw fit to put it into the inspired Word. Those two factors lead me to believe that this verse has a wider application than just that one local body.


Martin.

 

==And that kind of statement proves what?

Martin.

 

Natters said:
Verse 8 does not mention all rewards, it mentions just mentions white linen, which is the righteousness of saints (the same word used for believers on earth during the tribulation (Rev 5:8, 8:3-4, 13:7, 13:10, 14:12, 15:3, 16:6, 17:6, 18:24). Rewards in general are not given until after the 7th trump (Rev 11:18).

==I would argue the rewards are in view here because the church is given "fine linen" due to her righteous acts. The term "saint" is a general term which can apply to Old Testament saints, New Testament (church) saints, or tribulation saints. Clearly those saved after a pre or mid tribulation rapture would be tribulation saints. Therefore your argument about the saints is not convincing.

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You said:
Verse 7 does not preclude the church being partly on earth, partly in heaven, it just says the bride is ready. I.e. the bride was NOT ready before this point.

==If the bride is ready that must mean that the bride has been fully redeemed (1Thess 5:23-24, etc). Thus the entire church must be in heaven for that to have occured. Unless you are arguing that some believers, after being raised and changed, stay on earth instead of going to the Father's house with Jesus.

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You said:
In the posttrib position, most of chap 19, including these verses happen on the same day as Christ's return and the posttrib resurrection/rapture. Nothing doesn't fit.

==In the same day? Ok. How does this account for the church going to the Father's house (Jn 14:2-3)? Does Jesus take the Church to the Father's house, do a u-turn, and return to earth? What about the marriage supper which clearly occurs before the return (not just announced)? What about the rewards and the bride being ready? There is alot that does not fit with a post-trib view. Also there is little problem of wrath.

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I said:

==That is totally off the page. This is about the pouring out of God's wrath which the Bible indicates is world-wide (Rev 6:12-17, 8:3-5, Matt 24:21-22, Lk 21:34-35). The only way of escape is removal.

You said:
I disagree. Yes, it's world-wide, but that doesn't necessarily mean a pre-removal escape. Noah didn't leave prior to the wrath being poured out. The Israelites didn't leave Egypt prior to the plagues.

==Noah was kept safe by God (locked away in a ark) as God promised him. The Israelites were protected as God promised. In neither case was there a promise of escape. However in the future tribulation there is a clear promise of escape (Lk 21:36, 1Thess 1:10, etc). The only New Testament option for the escape would be the rapture no other option or promise is given. The Bible promises that we will escape the wrath and stand before Jesus.

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I Said:
In the context Jesus is talking about the tribulation period (vss25-36). In verse 36 Jesus is offering His followers "escape" from "all these things" (ie..verses 25ff).

You said:
Yes, let's talk about context. Who were His followers that these verses were spoken to? Were they raptured?

==No because the rapture and tribulation have not yet occured. Your argument would only be valid if the tribulation had occured.
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You said:
Scripture is true. Scripture cannot be true for some listeners and false for others. It cannot change meaning.

There are two possibilities with Rev 3:10. Either:

1. it is a promise of rapture, and thus a lie to the original recipients

==That is a very, very dangerous position. It has all sorts of implications of New Testament promises thus I doubt you really want to stand on that one. If the tribulation had begun at that time they would have been raptured. Since it did not occur the promise is preserved for each generation until it does occur. It gives Christians, of then and now, the assurance that they will escape if these things start in their generation. Therefore it was not a lie.

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You said:
2. it is true for both us and them and thus it is not a promise of rapture

==If not world wide tribulation and rapture, then what?

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You said:
I disagree. You yourself quoted what they were afraid had already started: that "the day of the Lord has alread come."

==Which of course would make no sense if the rapture and the return happened in the same day. The passage surely favors a pre-trib perspective.

Martin.

 

Natters said:
My comment was a preemptive strike on the common pretrib argument that the "church" is not mentioned after chap 4, thus she is raptured. However, here in chap 19 we see the "church" referred to as "saints" (not "church"), that's all.

==Like I said however that proves nothing. Saints has to be understood in its context. I have already dealt with this.
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You said:
In the posttrib view, Christ returns with the heavenly saints, and resurrects their bodies while simultaneously rapturing the earthly saints, all being given their new bodies (and white linen) in the air before Christ fully comes to earth.

==But Scripture says He takes them to the Father's house first not right back to earth (Jn 14:1-3).
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You said:
John 14:2-3 says that we will be with Christ. Christ comes to earth. Those raptured go into the air to meet him, and come back with him to be with him forever, where ever he is.

==That does not fit the text. Yes Jesus wants us to be where He is, where is that? In the Father's house. He promises to prepare that place for us and then return to get us. This is totally at odds with the post-trib view:

"I go to prepare a place for you. If I go and prepare a place for you I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am there you may be also"

Where is He? "In My Father's house". Jesus is preparing places for us in His Father's house. One day He will return to take us to where He is, in the Father's house.
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You said:
It's not "clearly" at all. Please show how "clear" it is.

==The marriage supper of the Lamb occurs in Revelation 19:9 while the bride is with the groom in the Father's house. This is before both leave the Father's house to return to earth (Rev 19:11ff).

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You said:
The first mention of "wrath" in Rev is in 6:17, after the 6th seal. It is my opinion and belief that the seals/trumps/bowls overlap to a certain extent, and that although the tribulation will be a long event (years), "God's wrath" is reserved for his actual return, the day of his wrath (Rev 6:18 and others), when the antichrist and his followers are destroyed by his coming.

==Even if they overlap, which I am not convinced that they do, you still have the wrath of God being poured out. Who broke the first five seals? Jesus, the Lamb. What does the seventh seal contain? The trumpets (sounded by God's angels). It is all God's judgment. Even when it appears to be man vs. man (etc) it is still God's judgment. It is the wrath of the Lamb. The wrath is not limited to the return, though it certainly includes that (2Thess 1:7-10).

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You said:
I do want to stand on it, but perhaps you do not understand what I am saying. Give an example of another promise in the NT that you think demonstrates your point about the flaw in mine, so I can explain it better.

==Take any New Testament promise. Each was given to a specific group of believers in a specific circumstance. Some of them were even given promises about the return (etc). Now if we take your position it means that we cannot claim any of those promises and, even worse, the promises to them about the return (etc) were false. I think that is a very dangerous position.

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I said:
If not world wide tribulation and rapture, then what?

You said:
I don't know, there are lots of possibilities, possibilities we may not have even thought of. What did the passage mean for the Philadelphians?

==The only Biblical option is the great tribulation (Matt 24:21-22, Lk 21:25-35, Dan 12:1). If the Philadelphians used their Bible (even only the Old Testament) this is certainly how they would have understood it.

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You said:
If so, then Paul could have simply said "don't worry, the day of the Lord hasn't come because you haven't been raptured yet." But he didn't. Instead, he talked about warning signs of the falling away, and the revealing of the antichrist. Worthless warning signs if the rapture came first.

==If Paul had taught them that they would suffer through the tribulation and see Christ's return then there is no way they could have been confused. Why? Because it would have been clear that it had not occured. Paul talks about things that must occur before the tribulation (day of the Lord) can start to prove that it had not yet arrived.

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Martin.