A Message for Pretribbers

The unconditional pre-trib rapture as it is commonly taught is incorrect. Many Christians, dare I say most, may indeed find themselves in the tribulation. But we do have scripture on which to base our hope of an escape.

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

 

Tribulation is an hallmark of the Christian faith, but there is a period of time that the Lord spoke of that He said would be worse than anything that had ever occured, or ever would.
Mark 13:19-20
19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

After this period, we look for the Lord's return.
Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

That tribulation He speaks of is the affliction in verse 19 and 20. All affliction before this is not what we refer to as 'the tribulation', we are refering to that tribulation that the Lord is talking about. Now as a pre-trib believer, I would generally refer to the entire period beyond the rapture as 'the tribulation' but I would consider the final 7 years, or 3 1/2 however you want to look at it, as the great tribulation. I don't believe that the rapture will occur and then 7 years later, the Lord comes out of the sky. The period I would refer to as the trib would probably be much longer than 7 years.

The events Jesus described have not occured, thus 'that tribulation' has not occured. The destruction of Jerusalem, horrible as it was, doesn't fit the bill. The Holocaust, which I would consider worse than the destruction of Jerusalem by a few million Jews, was not 'that tribulation.'

Deuteronomy 18:22
22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Was the sun and moon darkened? Did the stars of heaven fall? Did anyone see the Lord in the clouds and did the angels gather the elect from the four winds? If these things have not happened, then either Jesus was a false prophet, or we are still waiting on these things to be fulfilled. I know it isn't the former.

 

I believe that scripture clearly teaches that Christians will be raptured before the Tribulation. Of course anyone that gets saved during that time will have to go through it.

But the Tribulation period isn't for the church, it is for the JEWS and the JEWISH nation. God throughout history has been dealing with the Jews he is aways trying to get their hearts turned back to him. If you look in the old testiment every time God had to deal with the people of Israel he always saved a remenant ( we are that remenant today ) ie. Noah, Lot and Abraham, Sodom and Gomarah there are 10 total.

I also believe the first 3 1/2 years will not be as bad as the last 3 1/2, since that is when the Anti Christ will be promoting world peace and establishing himself as the world ruler. He needs to get people to trust and follow him. Of course since the Christians will be taken out so will the work of the Holy Spirit till God sends his two witnesses. Bottom line the tribultaion period is not for the church is for the Jews.

The Bible says in 1 Thes. 5:9
" For God has not destined us for wrath "
Rev.6:17 " For the great day of wrath has come "

 

Rightfromwrong,

Matthew chapter 24 does not saying that, tribulation is for Jews. Jesus Christ said, 'ye', 'you' about 19 times throughout whole context of chapter 24. Clearly, Christ is speaking to us as believers, not just for Jews only. Early Christians understood Matthew 24 was given message to the Christians, even, they knew that they have to faced tribulations and persecutions first before Christ comes. Also, they believed in future a single coming of Christ at the end of the world/age. None of them saying tribulation shall be last for either 3 1/2 or 7 years. Because, '7 years of tribulation period' teaching was not yet existed in Church history till 19th Century.

Bible does not giving us a promise that we shall escape from persecution and tribulation. Often in the Bible telling us that we must go through much of tribulations enter into the kingdom of God - Acts 14:22. Because Jesus Christ already overcome them, that we should be joyful over them in John 16:33. We should follow Christ's suffer, which He suffered for us, so, we should be suffering for Christ's sake in 1 Peter 2:21; and 4:12-16.

There is no verse in the Bible mentione don pretribulaiton rapture. That teaching is men-making or guesswork. I disagree with them. I rather follow what the Bible saying than what men saying according Colossians 2:8.

Be strong like as soldier for Jesus Christ!!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

DeafPosttrib

You are right in the fact that everyone will go through Tribulation in their life time no doubt. I never said they wouldn't.

I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about the tribulation mentioned in the book of revelation. The Bible is very clear that is for the JEWS ! It would takes months to show you how and why. The Bible is also clear that there will be a RAPTURE ! Many just disagree about when it will be.

You can believe what you want. I am going to believe Gods word when he says I am NOT a child of WRATH but a child of HOPE ! You can stay down here and suffer along with those who are not sure if they are saved, I'll wave to yah all from above

 

Hmmm, interesting observation. Where does it say in scripture that everyone encounters the tribulation at the same time? It is possible that Revelation is meant to be a personal revelation and not a societal one?

Untl we go home to be with the Lord, it is nothing more than sheer speculation. Many continue to preach the second coming, but I for one choose to preach the first coming.

 

RightFromWrong,

You saying, when read in the book of Revelation, it saying tribulation for the Jews.

Telling me, how many word, 'Jews' appear in Revelation? Telling me how many word, 'Israel' appear in between chapter 4 to chapter 19? Does the book of Revelation actual saying tribulation is for the Jews only??

OldRegular,

Oh you are right, I did not catch what James_Newman saying of Mark 13:24-27. You have a good sharp eyes as Eagle.

James_Newman,

You was actual saying:

 

By the way, I ask all of you as pretribbers.

Do you agree with Romans 8:35-37?

Whose of Romans 8:35-37 spoken apply to?

 

DPT, my answer for you is at:
http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/28/3350/4.html?#000048

 

This passage is the conclusion to the answer of Jesus Christ to the 1st question of His Apostles.

Mark 13:1-4
1. And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!
2. And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
4. Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

Question #1:Tell us, when shall these things be? This question relates to the destruction of the temple. In fact that is all that Jesus Christ mentioned.

Question #2: what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled? Although Jesus Christ did not initially mention the end times He answers question #2 as if it related to the end times in verses 24-37.

From your answer above it appears that you are post trib? </font>[/QUOTE]I absolutely believe in a post-trib rapture. I also believe in a pre-trib rapture. And possibly a mid-trib rapture. But any escape from the tribulation is conditional.

Revelation 3:10
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
If we would be kept from the hour of temptation, we must keep the word of his patience.

Hebrews 11:5
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
If we would be translated, we must please God.

2 Thessalonians 2:7
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
We must be letting to be taken out of the way.

Luke 21:36
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
We must be accounted worthy to escape the tribulation.

Otherwise we may indeed find ourselves in the tribulation.

 

James_Newman,

You say,

Amen. But... you say,

You believe in two comings?

You believe in THREE comingS???

Obivously, I can identify your belief of rapture postion that, you are a partial rapturist. There is so very, very rare baptists are partial rapturist in America.

I want to telling you something about the second coming. None of Early Christians were teaching on split comings or series of the second coming from the First Century thru 18th Century. Till in year 1830, a Great Britian teenager girl -15 years old, claimed, she had a vision of two comings or two raptures - pretrib rapture before tribulation gathering of the saints. Then, later posttrib rapture of the saints at the end of the tribulation. Edward Irving believed her story. Then, he begat her vision to John Darby, and he developed new split comings doctrine. Then, he spread his new teachings to churches in Great Braitina. Then, he traveled to Canada and America to spread his new teachings. Many Christians in America adopted Darby's teaching. They departed from the Bible with truth on the second coming. They followed Darby's teaching on split comings.

Darby's teaching of split coming caused Christians into confusion. Even, today many Christians are confusion on rapture timing.

You believe in condition with warnings from thje Bible. Even also Joey Faust teaching it. I say to you, amen. I agree. Most baptists in America do not believe in conditional teaching. Most baptists believe in unconditional salvation teaching, so called, 'once saved always saved'. It is so very popular teaching in America today. Sad.

You mentioned on Rev. 3:10. I agree. Rev. 3:10 telling us so very clear, it is condition warning. If we do not keep God's Word(commandment), God shall not take care or protect us.

There is much misunderstanding or misintepreting on 'hour of temptation', what it means.

Matthew Henry explained on Rev. 3:10 in his commentary so clear, he said of Rev. 3:10: "By keeping the gospel they are prepared for the TRIAL; and the same divine grace that has made them fruitful in TIMES of peace will make them faithful in TIMES of PERSECUTION.

Christ does not saying, 'hour of temption' is so called, 'seven year tribulation period'.

Reve. 3:10 talks about the promise to us, IF we keeping the commandment, God will protecting us while facing trials, troubles, persecutions, temptations. OR..... what IF we do not keep the commandment, then God would not protect us while facing temptations.

We do not have to wait for the coming "hour of temptation"(so called, seven year of tribulation). We are now facing temptations throughout our daily life.

Rev. 3:10 is same as in 1 Cor. 10:13 "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; BUT will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may to bear it."

1 Cor. 10:13 promises us, God knows our weakeness area of temptations, God does not allow us to face greater temptation. BUT, we are responsible to escape from the temption from being to FALL INTO SIN.

Being tempting is NOT a sin. Admitting after being tempted is a SIN.

Joesph of Genesis 39:7-21 is a good example of 1 Cor. 10:13. When Joseph faced master's wife being persuaded him for sex. He told no to her. But, she was not give up on him. The next day, she kept on tempting him by asked him for sex. He kept on told her, no. He was so stubborn and refused to sex with her. She still do not give up on him. She kept on tempting him day to day. One day, she kept on asking him for sex. He refused, at the same time, she grabbed his grament, and he fled from her right away so immediatley. He was doing the right thing. God blessed him.

Rev. 3:10 same with Rev. 2:10 refers to James 1:12.

Use our common sense, Rev. 3:10 is not talking about seven year tribulation period, it talks about the promise to us, if we keep the commandment of God. He would protecting us while facing temptations.

You mentioned of Hebrews 11:5. This verse have do nothing with second coming or rapture apply. This verse telling us, how Enoch was so godly, and walk holy life. God saw him walked so faithfully for 365 years. God decided to take Enoch home with Him, because He loved Enoch so much because of his faithfully.

You mentioned of 2 Thess. 2:7:

That is not what Apostle Paul was actual saying according your interpreting.

My question for you, who is 'he' of verse 6-7? Holy Spirit? Church? How can you prove me that 'he' is speak of Holy Spirit or Church???

I understand what verse 7 is talking about, and I know who is 'he' of verse 7. 'He' is speak of 'man of sin'. How do I know? Simply, we have to read back to verse 3 by contextually before we reach to verse 7.

Let's begin with verse 3 thru 10:

'man of sin' - vs. 3
'the son of perdition' - vs. 3
'himself' - vs. 4
'he' - vs. 4
'himself' - vs. 4
'he'- vs. 6
'his'- vs. 6
'the mystery of iniquity' - vs. 7
'he' - vs. 7
'he' - vs. 7
'Wicked' - vs. 8
'him' - vs. 9
'SATAN' - vs. 9

Who is 'he' of verse 7 speak of? Satan.

The question is, how Satn is now being holding back or restraining from being to be revealed? Who causes Satan to be holding back? By God. Of course, God IS the Holy Spirit.

Verse 7 is not talking about Holy Spirit. Verse 7 is talking about Satan.

You cannot find word, 'Holy Spirit' in verse 7, because Paul does not talking about the Holy Spirit in context of verse 3 thru 10. The context of verse3 thru 10 talking about the working of Satan, not Holy Spirit. Also, verse 6-8 is not talking about the coming of Christ, or gathering together. Verse 6-8 talk about Satan is now being holding back from being to be revealed.

Verse 6 telling us, we know what holding Satan from being to be revealed in his time. That means, God knows when the right time. God will allow Satan to be revealed as he shall be loosed out of the midst (support of Rev. 20:2-3, & 7).

2 Thess. 2:7 tells us, the mystery of iniquity is now already working. That means the wicked world system is now spreading over everywhere. Bible called Satan, 'god of this world'. Also, 'mystery of iniquity' is also mentioned find in Revelation chapter 17 and 18 talk about Babylon, the Great - wicked world system.

Word, 'letteth' of verse 7 in Greek means, holding. I rather follow what Greek saying than KJV. Because, the word, 'letteth' of KJV in verse 7 looks weak and sound to me, it means to allow. Greek says it means to hold back. Greek translation explains of 2 Thess. 2:6-7 more clearer than KJV.

Also, notice verse 7 says, "only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way." Notice 'will let in italic words, show that is NOT find in Greek translation. KJV added 'will let' unto verse 7.

Greek explains verse 7 more clear: "...only he who now hold back, until he be taken out of the midst."

At the last part of verse 7 in KJV says, "out of the way". In Greek translation says, "out of the midst."

I understand verse 7 telling us, Satan is now being hold back UNTIL Satan shall be loosed out of the midst. It supports refer to Rev. 20:1-3 & 7. Satan is now holding back is the picture of he is with chained and bound him from being to be revealed.

Why? Because God does not allow Satan to deceived the nations. God's purpose of holding Satan back from being to be revealed and to deceived the world. Because of God desires all nations to hear the gospel first. Right now, Satan is now holding back from being to be revealed.

How long Satan is still holding back? Till God sees more Christians become falling away fall in sins, compromising with the world(2 Thess 2:3 "falling away"). Then God shall be fed up with Christians. Then, God allows Satan to be loosed out of the midst to deceived the world, EVEN deceived the saints too!!

You mentioned of Luke 21:36. You say:

Luke 21:36 does not saying that we shall escape from the coming seven year tribulation period. It tells us, the promise to us, IF we watch and pray, we shall able to escape from trials, troubles, temptations, persecutions. OR, if we do not watch and pray, then we might face troubles, and also, face the judgement seat of Christ at Christ's coming.

I ask you, is tribulation a sin? Is tribulation a wrath?

Have you yet face a tribulation in your life already?

"My brethren, count it ALL JOY when ye fall into divers temptations." - James 1:2.

Does this verse mean that we are counted all joy fall into seven year of tribulation period, or in the wrath of God?

I ask you, what is the PURPOSE of facing tribulations in our life?????

Please explain to me what John 16:33; & Acts 14:22 mean to you.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Amen. But... you say,

You believe in two comings?

You believe in THREE comingS???

Obivously, I can identify your belief of rapture postion that, you are a partial rapturist. There is so very, very rare baptists are partial rapturist in America.

I want to telling you something about the second coming. None of Early Christians were teaching on split comings or series of the second coming from the First Century thru 18th Century. Till in year 1830, a Great Britian teenager girl -15 years old, claimed, she had a vision of two comings or two raptures - pretrib rapture before tribulation gathering of the saints. Then, later posttrib rapture of the saints at the end of the tribulation. Edward Irving believed her story. Then, he begat her vision to John Darby, and he developed new split comings doctrine. Then, he spread his new teachings to churches in Great Braitina. Then, he traveled to Canada and America to spread his new teachings. Many Christians in America adopted Darby's teaching. They departed from the Bible with truth on the second coming. They followed Darby's teaching on split comings.

Darby's teaching of split coming caused Christians into confusion. Even, today many Christians are confusion on rapture timing.
</font>[/QUOTE]I wouldn't be dogmatic about 3 raptures, but it does present itself as the likely scenario when other factors are considered. The gathering is likened to a harvest, which is always done in stages. The conditional nature of the pre-trib gathering would lend itself to this interpretation, with the worthy believers being those who are 'ripe' and ready for harvest. Firstfruits if you will. The final gathering at the end is ofcourse the ingathering, all fruits are gathered whether they are ripe or not. I wouldn't refer to it as a split coming. The nature of the second coming may end up being a bit more bizarre than any of us have yet imagined. But it will be a literal fulfillment.

But I do believe once saved always saved. Probably more so than most who say they do. It is the accountability of the believer that allows the grace of God to remain pure. If all the warnings are speaking of losing salvation, then grace is no longer grace, but we are saved by works. OSAS is truth that must be coupled with the truth of accountability, or it does tend to lead to lasciviousness.
Romans 6:15-16
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

While I think you can certainly make the application you have attempted here, it doesn't really say this. You compare the verse with 1Cor 10:13, but although they are similar, both dealing with temptation, Rev 3:10 is conditional while 1cor 10:13 is not. We all have the promise that God will not suffer us to be tempted above what we could bear, regardless of our works. But in Revelation 3:10, this keeping is conditioned upon the keeping of the word of His patience.

Jam 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

The phrase 'hour of temptation' could possibly refer to any temptation that comes upon us, I would not hesitate to use the phrase if I were waxing poetic. James, however, speaks of enduring temptation, while Rev 3 speaks of being kept from the hour. We all must endure temptation, this is true. But to be kept from the hour of temptation is not really saying this, is it?

In the context of revelation being the, uh, revelation of things that must come to pass in the end times, I think it is fair to say that this hour is speaking of a certain hour that will come upon the whole earth, which some believers have been promised to be kept from for being faithful and enduring their day to day trials and temptations. This would be a good reason to pray 'lead me not into temptation'

More later. I'm about to pass out. God bless, brothers.

 

DeafPosttrib: I have responded to your post at:
http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/28/3350/4.html?#000051

 

We know that Christ will come again. Everything else is sheer speculation in regards to the second coming. Yet there are many who are preaching their interpretation of possible second coming events as though they were doctrine, some to the point where you'd think they were Lahaye on steroids. Yet all the while, they have full fulfillment of the first coming, which doesn't seem to interest them nearly as much.

We should preach what we know. We do not know the details of the second coming.