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Another Undeclared War?
- Thread starter KenH
- Start date
Brother James
New Member
I am not in support of Iraq nor action on Iran because of their governments. I support it because their leaders threatened the security of the USA.
Saddam harbored terrorist training camps and publicly pledged his support for terrorism against the US. The Iranians are pretty well rubbing our noses in the fact that they are going to have nukes with which to shift the balance of world power and security. </font>[/QUOTE]You sound like a government apologist. Listen to yourself.
You sound like a government apologist. Listen to yourself.
If you think the government is right, that is a good thing. It is only if you think the government wrong that it is a bad thing.
A number of us appreciate the fact that Bush is taking a strong stand in favor of USA security.
If you think the government is right, that is a good thing. It is only if you think the government wrong that it is a bad thing.
A number of us appreciate the fact that Bush is taking a strong stand in favor of USA security.
Brother James
New Member
A number of us who take a Biblical view think he's a reprobate just like the one before him.
Brother James
New Member
Are You a Christian Warmonger?
by Laurence M. Vance
It is appalling that many defenders of the war in Iraq are Christians; it is even worse when they appeal to Scripture to excuse or justify a senseless war that has now resulted in the deaths of over 1,500 Americans and the wounding of countless thousands more.
When the president of the Ayn Rand Institute, Yaron Brook, appeared last December on The O’Reilly Factor and called for "harsher military measures in Iraq," it was disheartening to hear him advocate that the U.S. military should "be a lot more brutal," "bring this war to the civilians," and "turn Fallujah into dust." As reprehensible as these statements are, they come as no surprise since Brook is guided by Objectivism and not Christianity.
But the sad fact is that some Christian warmongers are just as militant. They consider this war to be a Christian crusade against Islam and view the thousands of dead Iraqi civilians as collateral damage. Congressman Sam Johnson (R-TX), when speaking on February 19 at Suncreek United Methodist Church in Allen, Texas, related to the congregation how he told President Bush: "Syria is the problem. Syria is where those weapons of mass destruction are, in my view. You know, I can fly an F-15, put two nukes on ’em and I’ll make one pass. We won’t have to worry about Syria anymore." Although Johnson later claimed to be joking, it is strange that "the crowd roared with applause" instead of with laughter.
Other Christians are passive Christian warmongers. Although they don’t actively participate in the war in Iraq, cherish the thought of dead Iraqis, or "joke" about nuking Muslims, they excuse, dismiss, make apologies for, and defend the war (and sometimes even the torture of prisoners and the killing of civilians) with such profound scriptural and logical assertions as "we should always obey the government," "Bush is a Christian so we should follow his leadership," or "doesn’t the Bible say there is ‘a time of war.’"
The following test is designed for Christians of any stripe to determine to what degree, if any, that they are a Christian warmonger. These statements are based on things I have read or been told by Christians seeking to excuse or justify the war in Iraq in order to defend President Bush. The statements are not in any particular order. Each statement is designed to be answered with either "true" or "false." A "true" answer receives 1 point and a "false" answer receives no points. Add up your points and consult the scale at the bottom to obtain the results.
The commandment "Thou shalt not kill" (Exodus 20:13) never applies to killing in war.
We should follow President Bush’s leadership because he is a Christian.
Torturing Iraqi prisoners to obtain information is okay if it saves the life of one American.
The command to "submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake" (1 Peter 2:13) means that we should kill foreigners in their country if the government says to do so.
U.S. intervention in the Middle East is necessary to protect Israel from the Arabs.
Muslim civilians killed by the U.S. military in Iraq and Afghanistan are just collateral damage.
A preemptive war against Iraq is nothing to be concerned about because the Bible says there is "a time of war" (Ecclesiastes 3:8).
It is okay to kill Muslims in Iraq because the terrorists who kill Jews are Muslims.
Since the Bible says that "the powers that be are ordained of God" (Romans 13:1), we should always obey the government when it comes to war.
U.S. wars and interventions abroad are ultimately a good thing because they pave the way for the spread of the gospel.
The command to "obey magistrates" (Titus 3:1) means that it is not immoral to drop bombs on foreign countries if the government says it should be done.
The U.S. should take vengeance on Muslims because of the September 11th attacks.
A perpetual war against the Muslim world in order to fight terrorism is just because "The LORD is a man of war" (Exodus 15:3).
Christians can wholeheartedly participate in their government’s wars since God commanded the Jews in the Old Testament to go to war.
Christians can proudly serve in the military in any capacity.
Christians can proudly serve in the CIA in any capacity.
The command to "obey God rather than men" (Acts 5:29) does not apply to refusing to kill for the state in a war.
God approves of the war in Iraq because Islam is a false religion.
Muslims in the Middle East hate Americans because of their Christianity, their freedoms, and their democratic values.
Christians in Iraq are better off now than they were under Saddam Hussein.
1 _____ 2 _____ 3 _____ 4 _____ 5 _____
6 _____ 7 _____ 8 _____ 9 _____ 10 _____
11 _____ 12 _____ 13 _____ 14 _____ 15 _____
16 _____ 17 _____ 18 _____ 19 _____ 20 _____
Total _____
If you scored:
0 You are truly a man of peace.
1–4 You are not a Christian warmonger, but you may want to reevaluate some of your beliefs.
5–8 You are on your way to becoming a Christian warmonger, but there is still hope for you; repent.
9–12 You are a Christian warmonger; turn from the error of your ways.
13–16 You are a militant Christian warmonger; get right with God.
17–20 You may be a Christian but you are a crazed warmonger whose idea of Christianity is seriously defective.
April 7, 2005
Laurence M. Vance [send him mail] is a freelance writer and an adjunct instructor in accounting and economics at Pensacola Junior College in Pensacola, FL. His new book is Christianity and War and Other Essays Against the Warfare State. Visit his website.
Copyright © 2005 LewRockwell.com
Laurence M. Vance Archives
Back to LewRockwell.com Home Page
Find this article at:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance40.html
by Laurence M. Vance
It is appalling that many defenders of the war in Iraq are Christians; it is even worse when they appeal to Scripture to excuse or justify a senseless war that has now resulted in the deaths of over 1,500 Americans and the wounding of countless thousands more.
When the president of the Ayn Rand Institute, Yaron Brook, appeared last December on The O’Reilly Factor and called for "harsher military measures in Iraq," it was disheartening to hear him advocate that the U.S. military should "be a lot more brutal," "bring this war to the civilians," and "turn Fallujah into dust." As reprehensible as these statements are, they come as no surprise since Brook is guided by Objectivism and not Christianity.
But the sad fact is that some Christian warmongers are just as militant. They consider this war to be a Christian crusade against Islam and view the thousands of dead Iraqi civilians as collateral damage. Congressman Sam Johnson (R-TX), when speaking on February 19 at Suncreek United Methodist Church in Allen, Texas, related to the congregation how he told President Bush: "Syria is the problem. Syria is where those weapons of mass destruction are, in my view. You know, I can fly an F-15, put two nukes on ’em and I’ll make one pass. We won’t have to worry about Syria anymore." Although Johnson later claimed to be joking, it is strange that "the crowd roared with applause" instead of with laughter.
Other Christians are passive Christian warmongers. Although they don’t actively participate in the war in Iraq, cherish the thought of dead Iraqis, or "joke" about nuking Muslims, they excuse, dismiss, make apologies for, and defend the war (and sometimes even the torture of prisoners and the killing of civilians) with such profound scriptural and logical assertions as "we should always obey the government," "Bush is a Christian so we should follow his leadership," or "doesn’t the Bible say there is ‘a time of war.’"
The following test is designed for Christians of any stripe to determine to what degree, if any, that they are a Christian warmonger. These statements are based on things I have read or been told by Christians seeking to excuse or justify the war in Iraq in order to defend President Bush. The statements are not in any particular order. Each statement is designed to be answered with either "true" or "false." A "true" answer receives 1 point and a "false" answer receives no points. Add up your points and consult the scale at the bottom to obtain the results.
The commandment "Thou shalt not kill" (Exodus 20:13) never applies to killing in war.
We should follow President Bush’s leadership because he is a Christian.
Torturing Iraqi prisoners to obtain information is okay if it saves the life of one American.
The command to "submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake" (1 Peter 2:13) means that we should kill foreigners in their country if the government says to do so.
U.S. intervention in the Middle East is necessary to protect Israel from the Arabs.
Muslim civilians killed by the U.S. military in Iraq and Afghanistan are just collateral damage.
A preemptive war against Iraq is nothing to be concerned about because the Bible says there is "a time of war" (Ecclesiastes 3:8).
It is okay to kill Muslims in Iraq because the terrorists who kill Jews are Muslims.
Since the Bible says that "the powers that be are ordained of God" (Romans 13:1), we should always obey the government when it comes to war.
U.S. wars and interventions abroad are ultimately a good thing because they pave the way for the spread of the gospel.
The command to "obey magistrates" (Titus 3:1) means that it is not immoral to drop bombs on foreign countries if the government says it should be done.
The U.S. should take vengeance on Muslims because of the September 11th attacks.
A perpetual war against the Muslim world in order to fight terrorism is just because "The LORD is a man of war" (Exodus 15:3).
Christians can wholeheartedly participate in their government’s wars since God commanded the Jews in the Old Testament to go to war.
Christians can proudly serve in the military in any capacity.
Christians can proudly serve in the CIA in any capacity.
The command to "obey God rather than men" (Acts 5:29) does not apply to refusing to kill for the state in a war.
God approves of the war in Iraq because Islam is a false religion.
Muslims in the Middle East hate Americans because of their Christianity, their freedoms, and their democratic values.
Christians in Iraq are better off now than they were under Saddam Hussein.
1 _____ 2 _____ 3 _____ 4 _____ 5 _____
6 _____ 7 _____ 8 _____ 9 _____ 10 _____
11 _____ 12 _____ 13 _____ 14 _____ 15 _____
16 _____ 17 _____ 18 _____ 19 _____ 20 _____
Total _____
If you scored:
0 You are truly a man of peace.
1–4 You are not a Christian warmonger, but you may want to reevaluate some of your beliefs.
5–8 You are on your way to becoming a Christian warmonger, but there is still hope for you; repent.
9–12 You are a Christian warmonger; turn from the error of your ways.
13–16 You are a militant Christian warmonger; get right with God.
17–20 You may be a Christian but you are a crazed warmonger whose idea of Christianity is seriously defective.
April 7, 2005
Laurence M. Vance [send him mail] is a freelance writer and an adjunct instructor in accounting and economics at Pensacola Junior College in Pensacola, FL. His new book is Christianity and War and Other Essays Against the Warfare State. Visit his website.
Copyright © 2005 LewRockwell.com
Laurence M. Vance Archives
Back to LewRockwell.com Home Page
Find this article at:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance40.html
I am not in support of Iraq nor action on Iran because of their governments. I support it because their leaders threatened the security of the USA.
Saddam harbored terrorist training camps and publicly pledged his support for terrorism against the US. The Iranians are pretty well rubbing our noses in the fact that they are going to have nukes with which to shift the balance of world power and security. </font>[/QUOTE]You sound like a government apologist. Listen to yourself. </font>[/QUOTE]You sound like you think Muslims don't believe in Jihad. They, like us, believe that they have a mission from God to convert the world. Unlike us, many of them believe that forced conversions or death are acceptable methods of evangelism.
They have already demonstrated that even if we give them money, trade with them, and generally support their stated objective of "peace", we will still be the enemy until the world is Muslim. We don't have the luxury of isolationism. Modern technology has made this a very small world... and multiplied the destructive power of very small operatives.
More destruction can be brought on the US by one fishing boat floating up the Hudson than all the bombs dropped during WWII. In one flash or hour of poison water/gas, more Americans can die than in all previous US wars combined.
A defensive posture is simply not practical.
It is appalling that many defenders of the war in Europe were Christians; it is worse when they appeal to scripture to excuse or justify a senseless war that cost over 200K American lives (3000 on D-Day alone) and the wounding of thousands more.
There is a moral justification for national defense... especially when defending liberty from tyranny which Islamic statism certainly is.
Brother James
New Member
Forgive me brother Scott but you sound like you're scared to death. Do you really believe this propaganda from GW and company? Why don't you examine what's been perpetrated on these sinners in Arab nations by the ungodly multi-billionare sinners over here who run this country for thier own profit. It's been going on now for about 50 years. Take the time to find out what we did in Iran with the Shah or how we put the Baath party in power in Iraq or how we prop up some of the most wicked men in the history of the world in Saudi Arabia and Egypt. Nationalism will blind you brother. Use the same standard to judge all sinners by. It will humble you.
Nope. Just realistic. To me it sound like you are the one fearing the boogy man behind every tree.
Not unqualified. However, I have read what Muslims have said themselves.
"IF" that is the case then I can simultaneously disapprove of the actions against them and not be a fool about what they would like to do to us, mine, and me.
I am somewhat familiar with both those actions and some of the reasoning. Up until about 20 years ago, those actions were considered necessary to keep those nations from falling under the influence of the Soviet Union. The Persian Gulf was a particular area of interest for them due to its oil and warm water ports.
History doesn't occur in a vacuum.
So will conspiracy theories and suspicion of every action.
Right back at you.
I am under no delusions that our government is what it was designed to be or should be. I do not approve of the pragmatism that employed during the Cold War that landed us where we are... none the less, I am not in denial about where we are nor who our enemies are nor what these Islamofascists would be willing to do to me and my children for practicing Christianity the way we do.
fromtheright
<img src =/2844.JPG>
ScottJ,
Don't you understand--some of these folks are more afraid of their own government in its efforts to protect us from terrorists who have proven their barbarism than of the animals we're fighting. Even more puzzling is how the far Right seems to be so comfortable in this bed of the far Left's making. I too believe in being careful about the power of government and am under no illusions about the expansion of government far beyond the Founders' intentions, but the first duty of a national government is to defend the nation. If that means intercepting some raghead bomb-maker phone calls or being vigilant about incipient radical Islam's nuclearization, I'm for it.
Don't you understand--some of these folks are more afraid of their own government in its efforts to protect us from terrorists who have proven their barbarism than of the animals we're fighting. Even more puzzling is how the far Right seems to be so comfortable in this bed of the far Left's making. I too believe in being careful about the power of government and am under no illusions about the expansion of government far beyond the Founders' intentions, but the first duty of a national government is to defend the nation. If that means intercepting some raghead bomb-maker phone calls or being vigilant about incipient radical Islam's nuclearization, I'm for it.
I think we as a nation are at a point of decision if we intend to keep even the liberties we have left. We either close the borders and isolate ourselves from the world pretty much completely or we engage the world proactively in our own defense.
Both strategies have dangers but any other answer I know of will progressively lead us to less and less liberty.
I agree with you ftr with one addition. I think we in the "Christian Right" are flirting with following the path trod by the "Christian Left". Allegiance to a party that causes us to compromise principle is dangerous...
I sure wish we had Reagan back... especially with a Congress that he could have used to accomplish his ideals.
Both strategies have dangers but any other answer I know of will progressively lead us to less and less liberty.
I agree with you ftr with one addition. I think we in the "Christian Right" are flirting with following the path trod by the "Christian Left". Allegiance to a party that causes us to compromise principle is dangerous...
I sure wish we had Reagan back... especially with a Congress that he could have used to accomplish his ideals.
fromtheright
<img src =/2844.JPG>
Scott,
As to the borders, I think that we should definitely fence and closely guard the southern border.
I'm not too worried about tying myself to a party. They're all made up of flawed men--including the CPUSA. I believe the answer remains, though, to associate ourselves with the Republican Party and gain such influence as to have an impact on public policy while keeping to a higher road that does not tolerate corruption within our own Party. Those found guilty of such should be tossed out of office; I believe very much in holding our own to a higher standard.
And you'll sure get a loud AMEN from this corner as to wishing for Reagan!
As to the borders, I think that we should definitely fence and closely guard the southern border.
I'm not too worried about tying myself to a party. They're all made up of flawed men--including the CPUSA. I believe the answer remains, though, to associate ourselves with the Republican Party and gain such influence as to have an impact on public policy while keeping to a higher road that does not tolerate corruption within our own Party. Those found guilty of such should be tossed out of office; I believe very much in holding our own to a higher standard.
And you'll sure get a loud AMEN from this corner as to wishing for Reagan!
Brother James
New Member
So now Arab people are animals? Ragheads? Not very becoming of the Gospel brother.
If christians had as much zeal in spreading the Gospel of Christ as they do with thier blind support of a government it would be a wonderful thing. Who would Jesus kill?
Hbr 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of [them], and embraced [them], and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Not me. I think we should colonize Mexico.
Seriously though. I have worked with Mexican people. Most are very hardworking and only want to do a good job and provide for their families. Moreover, most that I have seen take jobs that "Americans" turn their nose up at. The notion that they these uneducated "illegals" are taking jobs from Americans willing to work is without foundation in my opinion.
I think we should simultaneously increase the number of "legals" we permit and close the borders.
Considering the general attitude of our neighbors toward us... I'd be more inclined to close the northern border though. They seem to think less of us than the Mexicans do.
I agree pretty much... and this has typically been the case. When Nixon's guilt was apparent, the GOP demanded his resignation. When Clinton's guilt became apparent, Dems attacked the GOP.
Kennedy is excused for not only philandering but man slaughter while Gingrich is out on his ear.
Hillary gets away with "plantation" race baiting. Lott is booted for being nice to an old man.
Have you heard of the guy in Ohio- Blackwell? Some refer to him as a black Reagan. The party elite are fearful of him... If the country club GOP doesn't like someone, that's an almost sure beat they're goooooood.
elijah_lives
New Member
Compulsory government service is incompatible with individual liberty!!
Would we prefer to die "free", or live up to our responsibilities as citizens? Every male incurs a service obligation (8 yrs I believe). Those who dodge serving are living off the rest of us.
Would we prefer to die "free", or live up to our responsibilities as citizens? Every male incurs a service obligation (8 yrs I believe). Those who dodge serving are living off the rest of us.
So now Arab people are animals?</font>[/QUOTE] That isn't what he said, Is it? He didn't advocate going after innocent people quietly living their lives but rather those who think they have a mission from God to kill the infidels and bring down the great Satan... that's us in case you didn't know.
And yes, "animal" is a pretty good description of the kind of barbarism these various Islamofascists employ. Torture, mutilation, rape,... have you forgotten the mutilated bodies hanging from that bridge? How about the mutilated bodies lying in the streets of Somalia?
I am sorry but you need to go back and watch the footage of what those "people" did to our dead helicopter pilot's body.
Right back at you.
The people we are fighting certainly would... He was a Jew that claimed to be God incarnate.
fromtheright
<img src =/2844.JPG>
Bro. James,
So now Arab people are animals? Ragheads? Not very becoming of the Gospel brother.
No, but those who saw people's heads off and those who cheer for those who do so are, along with those who cheer for terrorists flying planes into buildings. Yes, they're animals, they're barbaric scum. Just a fact.
Who would Jesus kill?
Great answer. So we disarm, disestablish our military and give up the right to defend ourselves and retaliate because Jesus wouldn't kill?
So now Arab people are animals? Ragheads? Not very becoming of the Gospel brother.
No, but those who saw people's heads off and those who cheer for those who do so are, along with those who cheer for terrorists flying planes into buildings. Yes, they're animals, they're barbaric scum. Just a fact.
Who would Jesus kill?
Great answer. So we disarm, disestablish our military and give up the right to defend ourselves and retaliate because Jesus wouldn't kill?