Bush disagrees with South Dakota abortion ban

Has nothing to do with shame. Has everything to do with the "quality of life" and love for the girl in the hypothetical I posed.

I pity children whose parents revictimize them by forcing them to be pregnant. Sad. Truly sad.

 

Truth doesn't change whether you think it is "big talk" or even if you don't think it is "realistic".

I don't want 15% of my salary going to social security so that my deadbeat, immoral, burned out sister-in-law can lay around and complain about life problems that her immoral decisions created... but that doesn't entitle me to go kill her.

So the support of the arbitrary killing of human beings is now OK for someone calling themselves Christians?

I agree that there is more gray in this than in purely elective abortions... but it is still an innocent human being paying the price for someone else's transgression. How do you justify that?

 

Quality of life?!?! Since when does one person's "quality of life" trump another person's right to live?

That is one of the most immoral, irrational reasons a "person calling themself a Christian" could have given.

I pity the Christian that values innocent life so little and is so quick to give their consent to the shedding of innocent blood.

The parents "revicitimize" them? What by teaching them that saving another person's life is worth 9 months of pregnancy?

Would I endure 9 months of pain and discomfort to save a stranger's life? Yes. Would you? Would any "Christian"?

 

And my point is proven. Innocent life that is already victimized is further abused by parents with radical black and white thinking.

 

Jesus endured much more so we could have life.

 

As you will never be a pregnant teen, I guess your willingness is moot!

 

I agree gtbuzzarp.

Funny that the same folks who insist that the justice system should be about "rehabilitating" those who victimize their neighbors, who have been responsible for the ridiculously light sentencing, who are quick to condemn the law abiding for keeping a gun, who undermine police and those who would protect us from criminals,... are the same people who want to be "nice" and let victims of rape kill the other innocent victim of that crime.

News flash for liberals: LOCK THE RAPISTS UP AND KEEP THEM FOREVER. THAT WILL REDUCE RAPE OCCURENCE SIGNIFICANTLY AND MAKE THIS WHOLE DEBATE ABOUT ABORTION DUE TO RAPE NULL.

 

As you will never be a pregnant teen, I guess your willingness is moot! </font>[/QUOTE]As I have a very innocent, meek 16 year old daughter that I love very much.... My position of empathy on this matter is well beyond your hypocritical comments.

 

Care to back up the accusation of hypocracy?

 

Your "point" directly corresponds to a woman killing her 3 mo old because the father abandons her for another woman. Being a victim of wrong NEVER justifies making an innocent third party a victim. Ever heard "two wrongs don't make a right"? Well two victims doesn't negate victimization.

 

I am probably a sucker for responding again but
even if you make it out to be a "quality of life" issue, your argument still does not hold water.

Many studies show that the mental health of post-abortive women is much worse than those who have not had abortions. Even compared to women who have had miscarriages, while women who have had miscarriages initially suffer from more mental trauma than a post-abortive women, those feelings subside greatly, and much more so, than post-abortive women.
Sometimes it takes 5-10 years before those feelings even arise in post-abortive women.
In any case, the emotional scarring caused by abortion will cause a much less "quality of life" for a woman than the one who chooses to carry the baby to term. It only adds insult to injury when the abortion was due to a pregnancy from rape or incest.

Furthermore, post-abortive women have a much higher risk of miscarriages, and I also belive of breast cancer.

So much for increasing the girl's quality of life. 9 months doesn't seem quite worth all that, does it?

If you would like a sobering looking into the destruction abortion causes, read "Blood Money" by Carol Everett.

Even after saying that, those arguments pale in comparison to the fact that a life that was created in the image of God is being taken for the sake of a quick, short-sighted, fix.

True love values every human life in the midst of adversity.

 

Yes. It is hypocritical to act "caring" toward innocent victims while advocating that another even more innocent person become a victim... not just of rape but murder. It is further hypocritical to question my willingness to suffer in general but equal terms with a pregnant girl while covering callousness toward an innocent baby with hollow laments of compassion for a rape victim.

 

Not hypocritical at all. I don't give a lump of cell tissue the same consideration I give an innocent child. This gets to the point of when a human life begins. Also, sometimes a life is sacrificed to save another. War comes to mind. Life again is not black and white. There are often choices that must be made, neither of which has a perfect outcome. I value a 12 year old over a zygote or fetus. Plain and simple. Does this mean the fetus has no value? Of course not. But its value is NOT equal to a child IMO

 

A lump of "cell tissue" that has unique DNA and, like any other child, if given protection and nurturing can reasonably be expected to grow into an adult human being.

What you said is either ignorant of the facts of human life development or simply cold-hearted... without natural affection as Romans 1 calls it.

Get a biologist or doctor that knows the development process of a human being to tell you the exact point after conception that it "becomes" life. They can't... because scientifically, life begins at conception. Translation: Life objectively starts at conception.

Further, it is inaccurate to say it is simply a "lump of cell tissue" at any point after zygote... and the latest research suggests that even at the earliest stages specialization into what will become "head and toe" begins.

Yes it does. And as stated above, there is no scientific, biological, medical point after conception when it can objectively be said "A moment ago this was not a life but now it is".

We aren't talking about sacrificing one life to save another. We are talking about one person sacrificing inconvenience and some usually non-life threatening pain for 9 months to save another person's life.

How so? There is no analogy there. We don't throw innocent children at those attacking us in hopes of preserving our "quality of life".

Protecting and respecting human life.... and the God given rights of the individual is in this case pretty black and white.

OK. Let the child develop, be born, be raised by loving adoptive parents... then let them decide if they want to be aborted or not.

Then you have a distorted sense of the value of human life... plain and simple. A 12 year old has done far more to deserve a death sentence than either a zygote or fetus.

It IS a child... regardless of your opinion.

 

Not hypocritical at all. I don't give a lump of cell tissue the same consideration I give an innocent child.This gets to the point of when a human life begins

For scientific clarification on this matter please consult any embryology textbook. It is not simply some somatic cell that somehow goes from non-human to human. From his/her very nature, he/she is human. Or else the law of biogensis would be violated. And if we don't know exactly when life begins, why not err on the side of caution? As I think Ronald Reagan said, if you see a bag on the road and it is moving (as if something alive is inside) you don't kick it do you?(until you find out what is inside)

Also, sometimes a life is sacrificed to save another. War comes to mind.

In this case the person willingly chooses to sacrifice their life for another. Tihs is a noble deed. However, this choice has not been granted to the unborn, it has been forced upon them. Hardly a noble sacrifice. What if someone broke into my home and in order to save my family one family member had to be killed?
If I offer my wife's life, without her permision, or one of my childrens' lives, do you think there is nothing wrong with me making that decision?

And before capital punishment is brought onto the scene, the difference is that those people are guitly whereas the unborn is not guilty of any crime. Yet people are more apt to plead for the life of the murderer, and take the life of the unborn. Talk about misplaced priorities.

I think the Nathan's rebuke of Davind in 2 Samuel 12 fits well in this line of reasoning.

I don't have my resources with me, so I'm putting this together on the fly, but what
about this:

Luke 1
39At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, 40where she entered Zechariah's home and greeted Elizabeth. 41When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb , and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42In a loud voice she exclaimed: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy.

It is obvious from the text that the unborn John the Baptist was responding to Mary's good news. (not just a coincidence) This would not be possible if it were a lump of cell tissue, or some lowly valued fetus.

Psalm 51:5
Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

Only human beings are guilty of sin. If David was just cell tissue at conception, how could he be guilty of sin?

 

I shall not continue the folly of reasoning with &lt;personal attack deleted - LE&gt; as evidenced by a belief that a twelve year old deserves the death penalty. The idea that life begins at conception is a matter of opinion, not a matter of science, faith or scripture.

[ March 02, 2006, 11:08 PM: Message edited by: LadyEagle ]

 

the most innocent person in a rape is the baby. Should we kill a baby for that? So many women want babies and there are not enough babies to adopt.
betty

 

Show me where the 12 year old's life is in danger, and there are several here who might agree with you.

 

I have a daughter and though it would break me to go thru something like this with her, It would horify me to have her turn into a baby killer. I pray everyday my daughter will grow up with better values then that.

As to my call who is a Christian. Speaking in general terms not about specific people there is no doubt in my mind that people who kill babys need to know Christ. Just as there is no doubt that people who are on there knees before a statue of budda need to know Christ. SO if I have to consider baby killers Christians then I also need to extent that same lable to worshipers of statues.

I will not consider a baby killer a brother or sister in Christ, until they repent and accept Christ.