Bush disagrees with South Dakota abortion ban

MP

There is no doubt that an unborn baby is a human and alive. Human parents could not create any other species, fetuses do not change species when they are born. So they are human. They are alive there cells need nutrition, oxigen and can die. They are definantly alive.

So the only question remains. DO they have a soul/spirit. Given the consiquences of murdering an alive human who has a soul/spirit shouldent we consider that they do have a soul/spirit at the time of conseption until proven otherwise.

Please show me evidence or scripture showing me that a fetus does not have a soul/spirit.

 

DeeJay, I seem to recall it is against board rules to malign the salvation of another person on the board.

 

LE, it is deemed a personal attack for saying someone is not using reason, yet it is not for someone to accuse me of not being a Christian AND CALLING ME A BABY KILLER? How about some even handed moderation here please!

 

I said:

I did not opine if you are saved or not. I said people who kill babys are not. I think this is as reasonable a statement as if I said people who worship statues of budda are not saved.

 

MP

If you re-read all of my posts they are in general terms. If you can show me where I specificly called you a baby killer then, I will appoligize. I do not know your situation.

I have spoken about a general group of people who kill babys and labled them baby killers. It is my belief that this group of people can not have the Holy Spirit inside of them and continue to practice this evil deed.

General groups of people are spoken of all over this board and their salvation is questioned. No one would think twice if I said Mormons need to know Christ. See all of the Catholic descutions for example.

If the moderators deem me out of line for this then I will correct myself.

 

Talk about personal attacks.

Those who value the life of all children born and unborn are child abusers?

So I should support the killing of my grandchild when my daughter's life is not in danger? Would it not be abuse for my child to grow up knowing she has killed an innocent child?

 

I have posted these verses in the past, I think they can stand being posted again.

Psalm 127:3 - 5a Lo, children are an heritage of the Lord and the fruit of the womb His reward. As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth. Happy is the man who has his quiver full of them.

God gives children to the parents. Not to Kill. Not to Abuse. But to love. To train them up in the way they should go. To teach them the paths of righteousness.

We have no right killing any innocent life for whatever reason.

 

I think these verses apply.


Thou shalt not kill
Exodus 20:13


You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way; for every abomination to the LORD which He hates they have done to their gods; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods.
Deuteronomy 12:31


These six things the LORD hates ,
Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:
17 A proud look,
A lying tongue,
Hands that shed innocent blood
Proverbs 6:16-17

 

I don't really expect anyone to answer this, its kind of a rhetorical question(sp?). Anyways, do any of you PERSONALLY know anyone that has been raped and they thought that they were pregnant? Or anyone that was raped and was pregnant and kept the baby/didn't keep the baby? Because I do. One of my best friends has gone through this and I know what life is like for her. Abortion is not right no matter what. Even my friend agrees and I think she has a valid oppinion.

 

You are correct. The overarching biblical and Christian ethical principle is to honor and protect human life because we are all created in God's image (we are image bearers). I highly encourage you all to read the novel The Atonement Child by Francine Rivers (Tyndale House, 1997) so that you can get a solid evangelical Christian position on the issue regarding cases of rape. Like I said it is a novel; however, the author is spot on ethically and theologically. Likewise, this novel should be required reading for every pastor so that he has at least some idea how to counsel a woman that has been raped.

[ March 03, 2006, 04:32 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]

 

lil d

I commend your friend for standing up for what is right even though it is the difficult thing to do. She could have taken the easy way but instead has chosen to do the right thing. (if I understood your post)

I beleve there is right and wrong and that the truth of what is right and wrong does not change even if we have an emotional stake in the situation.

Nobody in their heart beleves that abortion is right, but some can make excuses and rationalizations to do what is easy. I will pray for your friend that everything workes out for her.

 

Personally, I think that abortion is the modern day human sacrifice that is sacrificed to the god of self. For, what other reason would someone do something other than selfishness and personal convenience?

 

Amen

You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way; for every abomination to the LORD which He hates they have done to their gods; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods.
Deuteronomy 12:31

 

I have not seen any reason or refutation of the scientific, philosophical, or scriptural proofs people have provided here, only ad hominem assertions and attacks. When a sperm and egg come together, two individually distinct “things” turn into to something (rather someone) that has a DNA of his/her own, which is different and unique from that of the mother. It is sufficient to say that at this point a new life has been created. I again reassert my challenge for anyone who does not agree to go read thru any embryology textbook. If there is any uncertainty about when life begins, we should err on the side of caution. To do otherwise is simply irresponsible.

And how does a 12-year old taking a baby thru pregnancy sentence such a girl to the death penalty? There are very few instances where the life of the mother is threatened. There are a number of things that can be done to preserve the life of both mother and child. Killing the baby should be a last resort, not the first.

Societies that no longer fear God, do not value human life.

No one has called you a baby killer or accused you of being a non Christian. Many Christians do non-Christian things every day, because we are stuck in this sinful flesh until we go to be with the Lord. That does not make us non-Christians.

What I am about to say might be taken as a personal attack, but I am saying it out of a heart of compassion and love for a Christian brother (or sister). I think we have all probably argued our points long enough. Let’s pray for Magnetic Poles, as it would appear that they are insecure in who they are in Christ Jesus. This will be my last post in this thread.

God Bless.

 

gtbuzz, you should pray for yourself. This IS my last post on this irrational thread.

 

Did you actually read? Is your comprehension that bad?

Here is what I wrote: "A 12 year old has done far more to deserve a death sentence than either a zygote or fetus." This is an absolutely, undeniably true statement. The likelihood is that by the time a kid reaches 12 they have knowingly lied, cheated, hated, bullied, assaulted, etc, etc, etc. In short, the unborn have not done any of those things. While the 12 year old probably hasn't done anything worthy of death, they have done far more cognizant, willful wrong than an unborn.

No. It isn't. If it were then one could say "A moment ago this was not alive and now it is." Medically, biologically- life begins at conception. This is also the only rational, objective interpretation.

To see when a proces begins (which describes life), you go back to the point of critical cause. What is the cause after which normal development will result in an expected outcome? The starting point for life- the point after which allowing normal development to take place will result in an adult human being- is conception.

If you want to dispute this and bring it back into the subjective realm of opinion- you'll have to do more than just give your say so.

I am sure you would like to escape guilt by making it subjective. I am sure you would like to rationalize abortion away so you can continue to support the current "liberal" ideology in general.

BUT... this is a very objective human rights and morality issue. The science favors pro-life. Natural law favors pro-life. Biblical standards support it. Common sense supports it. On the other side... you have nothing but the desire to escape responsibility for personal behavior as well as the responsibility we have to protect each other's God given rights.

 

Irrational? You are the only one operating purely in the realm of the subjective. We have given several objective reasons and arguments for why you are absolutely wrong... You have responded emotionally, irrationally, and personally.

 

Because of high risk pregnacys my wife had alot of ultrasounds thruout. There was no doubt that not only was the baby human life but reconizabal and loveable life very early in the pregnacy.

I have a question for those who support abortion. At what stage in pregnacy, if any, would you not support abortion? For example would you support abortion at 9 months, 8 months 6 months? Where do you draw the line?