AMERICA HAD TO BE DEPOSED

I pray Jesus comes soon.

 

I hope not! America still looks good to me relative to the alternatives. America still stands strong against tyrants, terrorists, dictators, etc. and is a beacon of hope for many around the world.

 

We also have a history of funding them which continues to the present time.

 

At least the globalists are letting us keep our flags and banners. They're nothing more than security blankets for those that like to wave them around and make colorful speeches now.

 

We also have a history of funding them which continues to the present time. </font>[/QUOTE]We all have relationships with individuals in certain circumstances for the purpose of civil harmony or mutual benefit that we wouldn't in other situations. Examples: the boss you can't stand but must respect, the neighbors you don't like but need to get along with, the other members of board you serve with but just don't have anything in common with, the person you thought was your friend until they stabbed you in the back, the soldier next to you that has values completely different than yours but in which you must place mutual trust against a common enemy, etc. I suppose it's likewise necessary for nations to have relationships with other nations with which they don't agree with on every point just for the purpose of civil harmony and, hopefully, mutual benefit. I don't agree with all the foreign policy decisions we make but I can understand the difficulty. I think mistakes can be made. I think we try hard to make the right decisions. I like America because it does stand strong against tyrrants, dictators, terrorists, etc. and isn't afraid to do so regardless what the rest of the world does or thinks about it. It's still a beacon of hope for so many even though, like all things of mankind, it has its faults.

 

The enemy you do not have but would like to so you can convince your people into giving up money to buy arms that you make to protect themselves from the enemy you just created. The dictator down the street that you are selling arms to so you can later sell arms to the other side to destroy the arms you sold the dictator down the street. The terrorist nation that you arm behind your own nations back with weapons that you bought dealing drugs that you bought from the same people you were supposed to be fighting in order to stop the flow of drugs and on and on.

Because they buy alot of weapons and give us places to torture people that we capture in war we didn't need to start.

But you'll go along just as long as they tell you it's all in the interest of the people. It's just to bad they never told us the only people they were talking about is themsleves. Mistakes they make fer certain sure because every one brings more funding and control and bigger government to spend more and make bigger mistakes to get more funding and more control and on and on and on.

I think you think they think like you. You are a good person and have a heart they are evil and self centered and use people like you to gain an advantage and a profit.

America may still be a beacon of hope to many but it is quickly becoming the most hated nation on the planet because we the people have criminal gangs running our government.

 

I understand your concerns and I actually share some of them but I just don't reach the same conclusions that you do about those concerns. I know there's evilness in some of America's leadership but I believe the greater problem is a general falling away from following God's ways by too many of America's citizens. I think what we see in government is a reflection of what we have in society. We're getting exactly what we're asking for. I still think we're a "good" nation relative to many others but, yes, I'm very concerned about what we'll be like in the future and I don't like the trends I witness every day. I do fear, for the sake of those who might endure it in this life, that God will withdraw the blessings he has bestowed upon us.

No doubt weaponry has sometimes ended up in the wrong hands but, no, I don't believe it's by design. We've made mistakes. We haven't been out trying to sell arms to one side so we can sell them to another. I can't say we wouldn't be "happy" to have our enemies fight one another to the death rather than have to deal with them ourselves. That might actually be a good strategy if it would work!

We don't, by any official policy or orders, torture prisoners of war. We've lead the way in fair and humane treatment of prisoners of war. Those that have been found doing otherwise - things against our law - have been investigated, tried, and, when found guilty, appropriately punished.

I'm not much of "go along" type of person. In fact, I probably resist and object to authority far more than I should!

I'm against not only bigger government but big government. I'd like to see the federal government cut down to a mere fraction of its present size. I'd like to see it focused solely on its original purposes. I'd like to see people stop being enslaved to the benefits that demand it provide them and for which they continue to pay more and more.

Thanks! Unfortunately, I have a inherent tendency to follow the ways of the flesh which means I'm most definitely not a good or nice person.

Our country isn't being run by criminal gangs! We have some "criminals" in our society - government is no exception - but we're not run by them. The people are still in charge in America. They still have the power to vote. They still can petition for change. They still can express their disapproval. They still can work for the changes they want.

We've been hated in some parts of the world by some people for a long time. It some places it doesn't take much to gather up a mob to express those sentiments.

We've been widely envied by most of the world for the freedom, opportunity, prosperity, and power with which we've been blessed. That envy turned to jealously, some scholars believe, is the underlying reason for the hatred. It's like hating rich people while wanting all that they have. Or, it's like friends that love your money but not you. People - top to bottom - can be rotten apples through and through!

We've sometimes been used because we are too generous and too eager to help others. In some cases we have confused the smiles for sincere admiration. We're too quick to give away our advantages.

But, we've also taken in many persons - our ancestors and many of our own generation - who've come here because America offered them a chance they didn't have in their native land. I'm guessing most of them are very grateful and pleased to be here even though they still love their homeland as their land of birth. Perhaps that kind of appreciation is lost with generations who receive these blessings at birth.

 

"Our country isn't being run by criminal gangs!"

The Mafia never existed either. Al Capone didn't buy police chiefs, congressmen and judges it was all a conspiracy theory. It was all made up by looney leftists that didn't like him and wanted to ruin his good name and business. Yeah, that's it.

 

I have to agree strongly with Dragoon68's last post, especially the statement that "the greater problem is a general falling away from following God's ways by too many of America's citizens." There has been a huge shift in our value system to one of relativistic humanism, and this has fundamentally divided us. When people question the existence of absolute Truth, then anything goes. "The ends justify the means," a tired cliche that perfectly describes modern politics.

We don't, by any official policy or orders, torture prisoners of war. We've lead the way in fair and humane treatment of prisoners of war. Those that have been found doing otherwise - things against our law - have been investigated, tried, and, when found guilty, appropriately punished.

We treat our prisoners better than our own soldiers. There are always bad apples who wiolate our rules and regulations, and we punish them when they are identified. I think that is an outstanding demonstration of our commitment to humane treatment of anyone -- even terrorists dedicated to slaughtering non-combatants.

If these monsters were given POW status, their "rights" would be fewer, not greater. They would not have a right to lawyers, access to our courts, nor would they be released until conclusion of the war. The fact that they have violated the rules of war by not wearing uniforms, attacking non-combatants, and not representing an organized military makes it impossible to categorize them as anything other than "enemy combatants," a legal term that opponents to the war are attempting to exploit.

America may still be a beacon of hope to many but it is quickly becoming the most hated nation on the planet because we the people have criminal gangs running our government.

Poncho, we were hated when I served in Germany back in the early 1980's, by the very people we were there to defend from communism. I served in the 1st Armd Div headquarters, and our heavily-outnumbered formation had a life expectancy of 24 hours in the event of war -- yet our post was bombed twice by German youth who wanted us out of the country. Now that the Warsaw Pact is no longer a threat, vindicating our posture at the time, we are still hated. Some people will hate no matter what. And I see Muslims killing each other and us infidels, in "the name of Allah." I don't see any vast Christian slaughter in "the name of God."

"Criminal gangs" doesn't accurately describe our government. There may be individual criminals in any government, and they should be punished regardless of political persuasion. But most of them are simply trying to serve their country, and getting slandered by a dishonest press that simply can't accept a GOP majority. I know that you are against globalism in particular, and not particularly partisan, so I don't believe that you attack our current government for the same reasons that the MSM does. But consider this: If one is indoctrinated into a particular system, and exercises authority to promote that system, is that person a "criminal", or a "victim?"

 

"We don't, by any official policy or orders, torture prisoners of war."

That's quite a claim seeing as how there are at least 90,000 pages of documents that might point in the other direction. You say that as if it was a proven fact instead of something that hasn't even been investigated.

Public denials do not prove innocence!

"Those that have been found doing otherwise - things against our law - have been investigated, tried, and, when found guilty, appropriately punished."

You mean like those nice folks involved in Iran Contra? How were they punished? Today they are top government officials, billion dollar defense contractors, shapers of public policy, and leaders in the media.

Let me ask you two more questions.

What is a banana republic and where did the term originate?

Maybe you and Dragoon should agree on spending some time digging in the pile of declassified documents trying to figure out was has been and is really going on instead of taking all the propaganda as historical facts.

I already know Dragoon's reply as he's given it before. I can't be wasting my time with conspiracy theories. I guess it just feels better to most to rationalize false paradigms and wave the flag.

What ever happened to those guns that the police confiscated from law abiding citizens in New Orleans btwand what is the president's stance on that?

 

That's quite a claim seeing as how there are at least 90,000 pages of documents that might point in the other direction. You say that as if it was a proven fact instead of something that hasn't even been investigated.

Public denials do not prove innocence!


Poncho, you know full well that it is not necessary to prove innocence, but the other way around. These are allegations , not facts, and they will no doubt be investigated to death. If there is any substance to them, then it will work it's way through the system. Considering the destruction to our system that the ACLU has wrought, I tune out anything they claim. The boy cried wolf one too many times.

The MSM loves to throw darts, hoping some of them will stick. But why are they ignoring the Barret Report, which shows that our former President, whose wife may very well be the next Democratic nominee for President, obstructed justice? Why have they ignored a round hole, about the size of a .45 cal bullet, in the skull of former Commerce Secretary Ron Brown? Why do they ignore a very suspicious "suicide" of Vince Foster? Why do they toss about allegations of violating our civil rights through the NSA program, knowing full well that every President since FDR has used the same authority, and that every court that has examined this authority has ruled that it is legal and constitutional? Why do they emphasize the same allegations from former President Carter, yet fail to emphasize that he did the same thing? And had his advocates in court argue the exact same argument that another President (but of a different political party) is making to justify his authority? Is this not sheer hypocrisy? Why do they trash the reputation of former FEMA Director Brown, when now it appears that he was right, and that he did everything within his limited power to cope with a storm that was beyond our resources to handle? How does he regain his reputation? Why do they ignore the warnings of Able Danger?

The answers to these questions are that they will do anything to regain power, including manipulating the press and using it to slander, over and over again. Say it long enough, and people will believe it. Why do you, poncho, discount mounting evidence of WMD's in Iraq being moved to Syria, on the basis that anything (tapes, for example) can be manufactured by "them", yet put credibility in these 90,000 documents the ACLU claims to prove torture? That's inconsistent, and you must realize that.

Why are we so quick to judge, without knowing all of the facts, when we, as Christians, should know better? Why are some so quick to slander Vice-President Cheney ("Cheney was drunk"), without knowing all of the facts? Have we forgotten James 4:11 -- "Brothers, do not slander one another?" Or, "Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by Him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. For it is God's will that by living good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God." (1 Pe 2:13-16).

We sling allegations too freely, trying to gain political advantage. It is one thing to discuss things in a sensible manner, exchanging ideas and concerns. It is quite another to use our tongues to malign someone else, without knowing all of the facts and having proof. May God forgive us!

 

"Poncho, you know full well that it is not necessary to prove innocence, but the other way around. These are allegations , not facts, and they will no doubt be investigated to death."

Investigated by who the "perpetraitors" again?

We have looked closely into all the facts and evidence surrounding the alledged systematic torturing of prisoners in our charge and have unanamously come to the conclusion that mistakes were made only by low ranking easily scapegoated individuals so we need more power, more funding and more control.

Same ole same ole.

[ March 03, 2006, 04:28 PM: Message edited by: poncho ]

 

Poncho and Dragoon are both right. There is a "general falling away" (I would call it self indulgent, spoiled slobs) of the American people. Those we elect are but a reflection of us. There are 300 million Americans, some quite talented and bright, I am sure with common sense and leadership ability. Look who we elected. Nothing more needs said.

 

Bottom line is the globalists own the MSM EL. They push their agenda of creating a society in America with no morality and no limits on perversion. This is what you might call the "liberal media" but otoh hand they also push their agenda of militaristic take overs of other countries and their resources while using our resources to bring their new order about. We aren't in Iraq trying to free the Iraqis or spread democracy we're there to subdue them and any country that is not willing to give up it's sovereignty and be ruled by "officials" halfway around the world like is being done in this country. The only reason we haven't been invaded by multinational peacekeeping forces yet is that we are so far willingly giving up our country our constitution or morals and our right to rule ourselves and not be ruled by unelected "officials" in Brussels or London. The plan is a New World Order. That can only mean the Old World Order nationalism and love of country and freedom has to be destroyed.

They have succeded in balkanizing us through the electronic and printed media that they own and control. We have been reduced to bickering barbarians paying no attention to the foreign invader that is inside the gate and already well established (think Trojan Horse), because we are to busy trying to gain control of one side or the other in a rigged battle. While one half of the population is fighting over what they believe is right, the other half is fighting for what they believe is right. We expend all our energy fighting against each other while the globalists are having their way with us and bring both "sides" to a synthesis...a new order of rule by the elite through their own controlled vassals that on the outside only resmebles our repubilcan form of government. We are living in a craftily constructed illusion of self rule and freedom that is only skin deep.


Here's what it will look like if we do not all wake up put our diffences aside and realize what is being done to us by both "sides" of our own globalist puppet government.

SOURCE


It isn't about democrats and republicans EL much as we love to think it is and argue to minutia every little detail inside the left right paradigm and rail against what we perceive as the other side. It's about bringing in a new order by squashing the old. It's about the freedom of self rule vs the tyranny of coerced rule. Just because old glory still flies down at the court house doesn't mean we haven't been taken over by a foreign invader, it only means the invaders let us keep it so's we won't think we are their subjects.

 

poncho,

You say that as if it was a proven fact instead of something that hasn't even been investigated.

And you say that

as though American torture of prisoners is a proven fact.

Public denials do not prove innocence!

Nor do public, and often-repeated, accusations prove guilt. EL is right, the burden of proof is to prove guilt, not on you and the left/right alternative media and your allies in the Bush-bashing "MSM" to assert it.

 

So the pictures, documents and history recorded in those documents all tell a different story? Is there any evidence you guys aren't willing to overlook to "prove" you're right?

Lets me guess, all the evidence gained to support the "theory" of extraordinary rendition is all from liberal sources and therefore has somehow been falsified only to bash George Bush becaue they are envious. "Those democrats can never be truthful we all know that".

George Bush never really said that they were thinking of painting a plane in UN colors and flying it over Iraq hoping Saddam would shoot it down. It was only liberal sourgrapes. The Downing street memos were just more liberal sourgrapes too I guess.

I am truly amazed at the lengths people will go on this board to overlook all the documented evidence that doesn't support their theories.

The most written response to such is...I don't have to read it becuase I just know that those evil liberals will go to any length to bash poor Georgie and they not George Bush are the real liars.

We're not biased though, no...not us Bush supporters nothing of the sort. Amazing.

 

Yes, indeed, there was, is, and has been organized as well as disorganized crime in our society.

In the case of Al Capone, it was, to a large extent, the efforts of federal law enforcement that put him out of operation. Since criminal law is the duty of our government to handle it can be said that no criminal has faced justice - and many have - except by the hand of the government at the demand of the people.

The government is made up of fallible man and there have been mistakes and even evil done under the law. There have been some serious disappointments. This will always be the case. I believe it's one reason America elected to do away with its monarch and, at least, make those installed to office more accountable and removable by peaceful means if they failed to do right.

In our nation, justice has been administered for its citizens by and through its citizens from the granting of basic powers to government in our Constitution, through the election of representation and executive agents, to the final hand of its citizens as jurors deciding guilt or innocence on the merits of the evidence presented before the them. It has its problems and the trends - especially to bigger and bigger federal government - are alarming.

However, I insist that the country is not being run by criminal gangs! It's being run by citizens who are responsible for what does and does not happen. They have all the power. They need to use that power wisely by their votes and also by self imposed limits upon what they demand their government "take care of".

 

Controlled by citizens votes you say? No wonder the government wants flawed easily manipluted electronic voting machines with no paper trails to be installed so badly.

In case you haven't noticed Dragoon government no longer pays attention to the constitution. For instance FEMA is unconstituional. But it's still being funded cultivated and given more power and more control over citizens everyday.

It is unconstituional to confiscate legal firearms from citizens also but nothing is said when it happened in New Orleans, except by "sourgrape liberals" trying to tie George Bush's hands and keeping him from "protecting" us from the "terrorists".

Posse comitatus was enacted to protect citizens from federal abuses yet the ptb have tried to get it repealed.

The military isn't supposed to be surveilling American citizens either but the pentagon has ordered it done anyway.

The military isn't supposed to be engaged in civil law enforcement but they do it anyway.

Habeas corpus protects citizens from arbitrary arrests and imprisonment yet the ptb have tried to get that repealed also.

The bottom line is that if there is a law the ptb do not like or limits their power they try to get rid of it, failing that they ignore it.

You and I would be called criminals and jailed for ignoring the law and doing as we please, but if you are the government breaking the law is protecting it. That has Orwell written all over it.

 

You might want to go back and check just who all has spoken out on this one issue in this forum! I surely have and even started more than one thread on the subject!