Allegation: Rainbow Jews & there is no Jewish Race Today

LadyEagle · Sep 8, 2005

In another thread,

Grasshopper posted:
It seems for dispensational theology to hold any water you must have a continuation of the Jews from the first century. Dispies teach that the promises made to the Jews are still unfulfilled, but will be in the future. However if there is no “Jewish race” what happens to this view?

So the question becomes “who is a Jew”? Are converts to Judaism part of the covenant God made to OT Jews? If you were to convert Judaism today are you now part of these future promises? Are these promises not based on race, but religion? I don’t believe dispies would allow for this but I may be wrong. If so, then that brings up other problems.

So are those in modern Israel the descendants of those OT/1st century Jews? If so which ones, the black Ethiopian Jews, the white European Jews, or the brown Palestinian area Jews? You would agree the bloodline has been diluted to have this “rainbow coalition” of Jews. This brings up the question “how much Jewish blood must you have to be a Jew? Not only do they have to be Jews, but there also must be 12,000 out of each tribe according to the literal dispie interpretation of Revelation. So can you identify which Jews belong to which tribe? Can anyone? Only God right? Do you really believe there are a large number of Jews in the land that have not inter-married for the last 2,000 years? Think about that, they were dispersed all over the world for centuries but have somehow kept their bloodline pure to the point of tribal identification? Hard to believe. Keep these thoughts in mind as you read the following statements:

Encyclopedia Judaica Jerusalem (1971)
"It is a common assumption, and one that sometimes seems ineradicable even in the face of evidence to the contrary, that the Jews of today constitute a race, a homogeneous entity easily recognizable. From the preceding discussion of the origin and early history of the Jews, it should be clear that in the course of their formation as a people and a nation they had already assimilated a variety of racial strains from people moving into the general area they occupied. This had taken place by interbreeding and then by conversion to Judaism of a considerable number of communities. . . .

"Thus, the diversity of the racial and genetic attributes of various Jewish colonies of today renders any unified racial classification of them a contradiction in terms. Despite this, many people readily accept the notion that they are a distinct race. This is probably reinforced by the fact that some Jews are recognizably different in appearance from the surrounding population. That many cannot be easily identified is overlooked and the stereotype for some is extended to all - a not uncommon phenomenon" (Encyclopedia Judaica Jerusalem, 1971, vol. 3, p. 50).

Encyclopedia Americana (1986)

"Racial and Ethnic Considerations. Some theorists have considered the Jews a distinct race, although this has no factual basis. In every country in which the Jews lived for a considerable time, their physical traits came to approximate those of the indigenous people. Hence the Jews belong to several distinct racial types, ranging, for example, from fair to dark. Among the reasons for this phenomenon are voluntary or involuntary miscegenation and the conversion of Gentiles to Judaism" (Encyclopedia Americana, 1986, vol. 16, p. 71).

Collier's Encyclopedia (1977)

"A common error and persistent modern myth is the designation of the Jews as a 'race! This is scientifically fallacious, from the standpoint of both physical and historical tradition. Investigations by anthropologists have shown that Jews are by no means uniform in physical character and that they nearly always reflect the physical and mental characteristics of the people among whom they five" (Collier's Encyclopedia, 1977, vol. 13, p. 573).

The Encyclopedia Brittanica (1973)

'The Jews As A Race: The findings of physical anthropology show that, contrary to the popular view, there is no Jewish race. Anthropornetric measurements of Jewish groups in many parts of the world indicate that they differ greatly from one another with respect to all the important physical characteristics." (vol. 12, page 1054)

There is a book by an old Baptist preacher John Bray called “Israel in Bible Prophecy.” In it he shows that most of those in modern Israel are descendants of people who converted to Judaism over a 1000 years ago. I recently found this link below that gives an even more detailed account. Not sure who this site belongs to but it contains the same info found in Bray’s book:

http://www.thewinds.org/library/khazars.html

So, what if those to whom the OT promises were made no longer exist?
Click to expand...

Lady Eagle posted:
I notice none of your outdated references are up to speed via the latest technology and genetic mapping. DNA science now blows your theories of rainbow Jews out of the water.

Just goes to show how much all the so-called experts know on which they build their faulty eschatology instead of believing God's Word.

And yes, there will be 144,000 - 12,000 from each of the tribes just as God says in the Book of Revelation and they will be literal people who know WHO they are and WHAT TRIBE they are from!

It doesn't take any imagination now (knowing medical and scientific knowledge is being increased because we are in the End Times, just as the Bible says) to realize that God will allow man to unlock the secrets of genetic mapping so there will be scientific proof positive that all 144,000 will be from the original genetic lines of the 12 tribes.

Oh, yeah.
Click to expand...

Grasshopper posted: Really, have a link. Please make it a credible link, not from Jack Van Impe Ministries. Also show me the evidence that this DNA testing can determine which tribe they are from.
Click to expand...

Am starting this thread to discuss these issues re: 144,000, identity of Jewish people today and in Bible prophecy, etc. I will post my links regarding DNA testing later when I have more time. Feel free to carry on.

LE

James_Newman · Sep 8, 2005

Who needs DNA?
2 Samuel 7:23-24
23 And what one nation in the earth is like thy people, even like Israel, whom God went to redeem for a people to himself, and to make him a name, and to do for you great things and terrible, for thy land, before thy people, which thou redeemedst to thee from Egypt, from the nations and their gods?
24 For thou hast confirmed to thyself thy people Israel to be a people unto thee forever: and thou, LORD, art become their God.

Jeremiah 31:35-36
35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me forever.

bapmom · Sep 8, 2005

Didn't God, in the OT, specify that if a "stranger" came to them and decided to make Jehovah his God and wanted to live with them, than that "stranger" would become a part of them just as if he had been born to their family?

And really, isn't it true that every "race" of people in the world are intermarried with others? I think the assumption that there are differing races among men is the first problem here.

Whoever the 144,000 are, the Bible specifies that they will be descendants of the original 12 tribes. God even takes the time to write out - 12 thousand from this tribe, 12 thousand from that tribe - and so on. That would indicate to me that, while we here don't have those records any longer, GOd does, and He will sort it out in the end.

Deacon · Sep 8, 2005

This is a straw man argument against dispensationalists. Rather than a “Jewish race” call it the “Jewish people”. The Jewish people are held together by a common belief system.

Wikipedia defines a race as “a distinct population of humans distinguished in some way from other humans. The most widely observed races are those based on skin color, facial features, ancestry, genetics, and national origin. Conceptions of race, as well as specific racial groupings, are often controversial due to their political and sociological uses and implications.”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race

Some geneticists doubt if there are really any important genetic differences between races of human beings.

Rob

LadyEagle · Sep 8, 2005

Grasshopper said: So can you identify which Jews belong to which tribe? Can anyone? Only God right? Do you really believe there are a large number of Jews in the land that have not inter-married for the last 2,000 years? Think about that, they were dispersed all over the world for centuries but have somehow kept their bloodline pure to the point of tribal identification? Hard to believe.
Click to expand...

In response, as I stated in the other thread, the mysteries of DNA and genetic mapping are unfolding. Assertions that present day Jews living in Israel are imposters and not related to the ancient Israelites are also being refuted by genetic science:

From:
The DNA Chain of Tradition
The Discovery of the "Cohen Gene"

<snipped - the whole article is very interesting>

This genetic research has clearly refuted the once-current libel that the Ashkenazi Jews are not related to the ancient Hebrews, but are descendants of the Kuzar tribe--a pre-10th century Turko-Asian empire which reportedly converted en masse to Judaism. Researchers compared the DNA signature of the Ashkenazi Jews against those of Turkish-derived people, and found no correspondence.

In their second published paper in Nature (July 9,1998) the researchers included an unexpected finding. Those Jews in the study who identified themselves as Levites did not show a common set of markers as did the Kohanim. The Levites clustered in three groupings, one of them the CMH. According to tradition, the Levites should also show a genetic signature from a common patrilineal ancestor.

It is interesting to note that the tribe of Levi has a history of a lack of quantity. The census of BaMidbar shows Levi to be the smallest of the tribes. After the Babylonian exile, the Levites failed to return en masse to Jerusalem, though urged by Ezra HaSofer to do so. They were therefore fined by losing their exclusive rights to maaser. Though statistically, the Levites should be more numerous than Kohanim, today in synagogue, it is not unusual to have a minyan with a surplus of Kohanim and yet lack even one Levite. The researchers are now focusing effort on the study of Levites' genetic make up to learn more about their history in the Diaspora.

Using the CMH as a DNA signature of the ancient Hebrews, researchers are pursuing a hunt for Jewish genes around the world. The search for lost tribes, whether the biblical 10 Lost Tribes which were uprooted from Eretz Yisrael by the Assyrians, or other would-be Jews, Hebrews or "chosen peoples," is not new. Using the genetic markers of the Kohanim as a yardstick, these genetic archaeologists are using DNA research discover historical links to the Jewish people.
Click to expand...

Source for Above

Another article:

http://www.post-gazette.com/regionstate/19980919cohen3.asp

Another Source - PBS/Nova

The next step in Jewish genetic demography will be to understand the patterns of Jewish migration that formed the historical communities. Clearly most of these communities no longer exist, but their genetic structure can be discerned by studying the DNA of their descendants. In genetic terms, this will mean studying the DNA of the male-specific Y chromosome to understand the father's father's ("patrilineal") line and the DNA of the mitochondria to understand the mother's mother's ("matrilineal") line.
Click to expand...

Source for the above - NYU Edu Site

Grasshopper, please notice I didn't link to Jack Van Impe as a source.

bapmom · Sep 8, 2005

and where does the Bible say that the 144,000 have to be from a "pure" bloodline?

Paul of Eugene · Sep 9, 2005

The 144000 is a symbolic number anyway. 12 being completeness, 12 x 12, very complete, 1000 x 12 x 12 being very very very complete.

bapmom · Sep 9, 2005

of course its symbolic, but that doesn't mean it isn't literal, also.

Ed Edwards · Sep 9, 2005

Amen, Sister Bapmom -- Preach it!

webdog · Sep 9, 2005

Originally posted by Paul of Eugene:
The 144000 is a symbolic number anyway. 12 being completeness, 12 x 12, very complete, 1000 x 12 x 12 being very very very complete.
Click to expand...

That "symbolism" is awfully specific!

Paul of Eugene · Sep 10, 2005

Well I'm going to be pleased to join millions of jews in heaven, not just 144000, I betcha I betcha . . .

Loser has to let the winner take his first turn conducting the heavenly choir, OK?

LadyEagle · Sep 10, 2005

Originally posted by webdog:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Paul of Eugene:
The 144000 is a symbolic number anyway. 12 being completeness, 12 x 12, very complete, 1000 x 12 x 12 being very very very complete.
Click to expand...

That "symbolism" is awfully specific! [/QUOTE]Yep, 144,000 from 12 tribes (Dan is omitted) and they are "virgin males." Pretty specific for "symbolism."

ituttut · Sep 13, 2005

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
In another thread,

ituttut answering two

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Grasshopper posted:
It seems for dispensational theology to hold any water you must have a continuation of the Jews from the first century. Dispies teach that the promises made to the Jews are still unfulfilled, but will be in the future. However if there is no “Jewish race” what happens to this view?

The parable of the fig tree explains this. A year after Pentecost the house of Israel was cut-off. Sometime after Damascus Road they become just as we heathen, and today are saved just as we (me) heathen. So very many wish to have it the other way around.

So the question becomes “who is a Jew”? Are converts to Judaism part of the covenant God made to OT Jews? If you were to convert Judaism today are you now part of these future promises? Are these promises not based on race, but religion? I don’t believe dispies would allow for this but I may be wrong. If so, then that brings up other problems.

God today doesn't recognize the Jew in amongst we Gentiles. They are in the Body of Christ through faith just as the Gentile.

So are those in modern Israel the descendants of those OT/1st century Jews? If so which ones, the black Ethiopian Jews, the white European Jews, or the brown Palestinian area Jews? You would agree the bloodline has been diluted to have this “rainbow coalition” of Jews. This brings up the question “how much Jewish blood must you have to be a Jew? Not only do they have to be Jews, but there also must be 12,000 out of each tribe according to the literal dispie interpretation of Revelation. So can you identify which Jews belong to which tribe? Can anyone? Only God right? Do you really believe there are a large number of Jews in the land that have not inter-married for the last 2,000 years? Think about that, they were dispersed all over the world for centuries but have somehow kept their bloodline pure to the point of tribal identification? Hard to believe. Keep these thoughts in mind as you read the following statements:

After our rapture, God will again deal with His Own nation that He made for Himself. They are His, and He is their God in the Bride Jerusalem.

Encyclopedia Judaica Jerusalem (1971)
"It is a common assumption, and one that sometimes seems ineradicable even in the face of evidence to the contrary, that the Jews of today constitute a race, a homogeneous entity easily recognizable. From the preceding discussion of the origin and early history of the Jews, it should be clear that in the course of their formation as a people and a nation they had already assimilated a variety of racial strains from people moving into the general area they occupied. This had taken place by interbreeding and then by conversion to Judaism of a considerable number of communities. . . .

"Thus, the diversity of the racial and genetic attributes of various Jewish colonies of today renders any unified racial classification of them a contradiction in terms. Despite this, many people readily accept the notion that they are a distinct race. This is probably reinforced by the fact that some Jews are recognizably different in appearance from the surrounding population. That many cannot be easily identified is overlooked and the stereotype for some is extended to all - a not uncommon phenomenon" (Encyclopedia Judaica Jerusalem, 1971, vol. 3, p. 50).

Encyclopedia Americana (1986)

"Racial and Ethnic Considerations. Some theorists have considered the Jews a distinct race, although this has no factual basis. In every country in which the Jews lived for a considerable time, their physical traits came to approximate those of the indigenous people. Hence the Jews belong to several distinct racial types, ranging, for example, from fair to dark. Among the reasons for this phenomenon are voluntary or involuntary miscegenation and the conversion of Gentiles to Judaism" (Encyclopedia Americana, 1986, vol. 16, p. 71).

Collier's Encyclopedia (1977)

"A common error and persistent modern myth is the designation of the Jews as a 'race! This is scientifically fallacious, from the standpoint of both physical and historical tradition. Investigations by anthropologists have shown that Jews are by no means uniform in physical character and that they nearly always reflect the physical and mental characteristics of the people among whom they five" (Collier's Encyclopedia, 1977, vol. 13, p. 573).

The Encyclopedia Brittanica (1973)

'The Jews As A Race: The findings of physical anthropology show that, contrary to the popular view, there is no Jewish race. Anthropornetric measurements of Jewish groups in many parts of the world indicate that they differ greatly from one another with respect to all the important physical characteristics." (vol. 12, page 1054)

There is a book by an old Baptist preacher John Bray called “Israel in Bible Prophecy.” In it he shows that most of those in modern Israel are descendants of people who converted to Judaism over a 1000 years ago. I recently found this link below that gives an even more detailed account. Not sure who this site belongs to but it contains the same info found in Bray’s book:

http://www.thewinds.org/library/khazars.html

So, what if those to whom the OT promises were made no longer exist?

They don't. God makes a New Covenant with Them, and that will be after we are gone.

Click to expand...

Lady Eagle posted:
I notice none of your outdated references are up to speed via the latest technology and genetic mapping. DNA science now blows your theories of rainbow Jews out of the water.

Just goes to show how much all the so-called experts know on which they build their faulty eschatology instead of believing God's Word.
Click to expand...

Amen for going to the source for our information.

And yes, there will be 144,000 - 12,000 from each of the tribes just as God says in the Book of Revelation and they will be literal people who know WHO they are and WHAT TRIBE they are from!

Amen again, and God knows who they are.

It doesn't take any imagination now (knowing medical and scientific knowledge is being increased because we are in the End Times, just as the Bible says) to realize that God will allow man to unlock the secrets of genetic mapping so there will be scientific proof positive that all 144,000 will be from the original genetic lines of the 12 tribes.

Oh, yeah.

During the tribulation everyone will know without any testing. Probably any one trying to test them, the 144,000 will be destroyed. I believe anti-christ will require all to bow and acknowledge him as God.

Click to expand...

Grasshopper posted: Really, have a link. Please make it a credible link, not from Jack Van Impe Ministries. Also show me the evidence that this DNA testing can determine which tribe they are from.
Click to expand...

Am starting this thread to discuss these issues re: 144,000, identity of Jewish people today and in Bible prophecy, etc. I will post my links regarding DNA testing later when I have more time. Feel free to carry on.

LE [/QUOTE]The 144,000 will be literally preaching to Israel, and all Israel will be saved, and the Gentiles will also hear the gospel and some will accept the gospel to the Jew. In the tribulation the Spirit and the Bride say, Come (Revelation 22:17). Christian faith, ituttut

HankD · Sep 13, 2005

So the question becomes “who is a Jew”?
Click to expand...

Strange question, those who have wanted to wreak genocide upon them have no problem identifying them.

HankD

rjprince · Sep 13, 2005

All very interesting. And much of it very useless. Let Grasshopper use Britanica, DNA, and whatever. I will stick with the Bible...

Luke 21:24 - "And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."

Rom 11:25-27 - "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Bro Tony · Sep 13, 2005

Strange question, those who have wanted to wreak genocide upon them have no problem identifying them.
Click to expand...

Exactly Hank! And not only the Germans in WW2. but the present days Palestinians and Arabs seem to have no trouble identifying them. It seems to me that some Eschological positions are trying to exterminate these people in a bloodless way today, it may be bloodless but the purpose hasnt changed.

I will let the Scripture determine my understanding in all this. Romans 11:1 --I say then, has God cst away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. Reminding all that this was written at least 2 decades after the birth of the Church and God still had and has a purpose for Israel.

Bro Tony

Paul of Eugene · Sep 13, 2005

Another biblical verse:

Matt 3:9
9 and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, "We have Abraham for our father'; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham.
NASU

ituttut · Sep 14, 2005

Originally posted by Paul of Eugene:
Another biblical verse:

Matt 3:9
9 and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, "We have Abraham for our father'; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham.
NASU
Click to expand...

I believe this verse points to we today, living stones on the foundation of Jesus Christ, but not of the seed of Abraham that is also built on that same foundation. Scripture gives us hints of Gentiles being saved, but what was hidden from the beginning could not be found or understood until Christ from heaven spoke to Paul.

All today are Gentile's, as was Abram/Abraham before He was circumcised. This covenant of blood God made with Abraham was God making His own nation for Himself, and to come into the world as a son of the seed of Abraham, and the Only Begotten Son of God the Father. We are all Gentile’s today, for there are no Jews or Israelites as far as God is concerned. He cut His nation off. The Rapture will change all of that, and God will again deal with His nation, the nation’s, and Satan.

LadyEagle · Sep 14, 2005

Amen, Brother Tony!

OldRegular · Sep 15, 2005

Originally posted by Deacon:
This is a straw man argument against dispensationalists. Rather than a “Jewish race” call it the “Jewish people”. The Jewish people are held together by a common belief system.

Wikipedia defines a race as “a distinct population of humans distinguished in some way from other humans. The most widely observed races are those based on skin color, facial features, ancestry, genetics, and national origin. Conceptions of race, as well as specific racial groupings, are often controversial due to their political and sociological uses and implications.”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race

Some geneticists doubt if there are really any important genetic differences between races of human beings.

Rob
Click to expand...

Whatever coman belief system they have is called agnosticism at best and stheism at worst.

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