Feingold Storms Out of Meeting Over Gay Marriage Ban

Real Headlines from September 10, 2001

- Oil Tanker Catches Fire in Gulf
- Prospects appear dismal for Norway's ruling Labor Party
- Incumbent claims victory in Belarus presidential vote
- Hurricane Erin no longer a major threat to Bermuda
- Population gap between men and women narrowing

That was then. We live in a different world now. For some, it is easier to go back to crying about the rights of homosexuals BECAUSE they are homosexuals and totally ignoring the fact they already have rights as human beings.

 

So you have a man made out of dirt and a woman made of a rib...where are the children in this perfect family? It seems as if they didn't show up until after sin and the Fall. There are no grandparents, aunties or uncles in your picture, so they also don't look like "family" to you?

What do you do about families that don't fit the ideal? Pretend they don't exist and try legislate them out of existence?

Just curious: do you consider Ishmael to be a part of Abraham's family or not?

It's not grasping at straws to point out that that many, many households ('households' since they don't qualify in your righteous eyes as 'families') are different from your stated definition of family.

Menopause is a health problem?

 

We recognize that the word of God is the standard for what a family is, and recognize that anything else is sinnful and without merit.

 

Yeah, but your example included no children, grandparents, aunts or uncles, just a man and his wife, naked without shame in the Garden. Before the Fall, there was no sin but afterwards none but One has been born without it.

By your example, a widow with children is sinful and without merit.

 

I didnt say that, nor does the bible

 

My mistake then. What did you say?

Which words in the Bible describe the only way a family can be? Did the family in the Beginning look like a widow with children? No. So, as it is "anything else", is it "sinnful and without merit"?

Also, you didn't answer: is Ishmael a part of Abraham's family or not? What does the Bible say?

 

Yea...Im not going to answer the Ismael question.Ill tell you why. It is a fishing expedition. I dont take bait. However, if you would like to be upfront about a point then Ill be glad to converse.

I didnt mention a widow with children, although the widow who has children she gave birth to was married to a man. As it should be.

If you are unclear of exactly what I meant ask instead of ....you know putting words in my mouth.

Today we have widows, we have single parents who never got married, we have single parents who got divorced. We have adults who have never been married but adopted children, we have married couples who adopted children.

It is wrong an sinnful to give birth to children outside of marriage between a woman and a man. Working to establish a family with two men or two women as the parents is not what God intended.

Now...I think that is pretty clear. But if it isnt and you have a direct question or a upfront point to make...wonderful.

 

I've never asked anyone that before and I don't have a follow-up to it. It's interesting that you won't answer a simple question. Perhaps I'm on to something after all.

I suppose my point is that I'm unsure if the Bible has a single model of a family or whether it explicitly defines one as you seem to think.

That's true that you didn't mention a widow - I did because that family didn't seem to fit your model.

I haven't...you know, put words in your mouth - I used the words that you used yourself - then mentioned that your model as presented excluded a lot of people. I did ask you questions about it - they are still there if you scroll up and look.

Yes, indeedy. I believe they had them back then as well. Do you consider these to be legitimate families?

The Bible says that it is wrong to have sex outside of marriage (although I'm unclear about concubines and brother's widows), but where does it mention that giving birth is sinful? Wouldn't it be more sinful not to give birth once pregnant?

Do you think it is sinful for a single mother to keep and raise her child? Is the single mother and her child not a family or will they be a sinful family all of their days?

Ok, but where does it say that?

Yes, your opinion has always been clear, but the Biblical basis you claim for it is far less so. I have asked direct questions which you have evaded. The Ishmael question is not a trick and I'd like to discuss it. It seems to me that he was a part of the family - very much loved and desired by Sarah and Abraham. I don't know how Hagar fits in. What do you think?

 

I don't think the issue is "family" -- it's marriage. Homosexual relations are definitely condemned in the Bible; therefore, homosexual marriages should not be allowed.

When Christians try to make it a family issue, they go off track because there are families who consist of married couples with no children; steppartents, single parents (I'm one of these), children raised by grandparents, etc. These conditions are a result of circumstances and sometimes sin (though these people are often the victims of sin as well, i.e., a husband abandoning a wife and children). Also, we have to be careful as people will point out all the men in the OT with multiple wives and/or concubines (I am not saying this was okay with God).

I don't think God talks about what families should "look like" - he talks about marriage, which is the source of families. If the marriage is out of whack, then the family is affected.

 

This is one of those hard subjects to address that many are not willing to touch. The reason is it can be difficult to address the sin without appearing to forever condemn the people.

For example, A divorced couple has two kids. it can be asked:

If you are not using this type of question to work to legitimize sinnful behavior and are actually sincere rather than baiting a hidden aganda, then this is a legitimate question.

So what do we do with these folks?

Those who willfully divorce must acknowledge their sin, repent, and then and only then can they move on. Divorce is not acceptable with the exception of adultery. But reconciliation should always be a goal.

Widows and children are not equivilent examples as they are the result of the natural course of life. The death of a spouse is not sinnful.

Ishmael was a result of abrahams impatience with God. His and Saras' action in this matter was sinnful as they refused to wait on God to do what he said he would do. They failed to maintain faith in the matter. As a result Ishmael was rejected as the heir to the promise of God.

Also while concubines were an accepted norm in the culture of the time, this was a sinnful act to have sex with anyone other than his wife.

Notice here that a child was born to Abraham but God did not recognize the child as being born from his "bowels". The word refers to the birthing oragans of the Body. In other words the child was born in an illegitimate way.

Isaac was the intended heir as he was born of the marriage of Sara and Abraham. Legitimately.

It is not true that Ishmael was loved of Sara and Abraham. In fact there is nothing in scripture to indicate this. However Hagar Ishmaels' mother was dispised of Sara.

Moving on to the actual topic of this thread. Homosexuality is clearly against the will of God.

God says that the homosexual will not enter the Kingdom of God. I didnt say it God did.

So what do we do with the folks?

1. We recognize that a homosexual relationship does not constitute a legitimate family in the eyes of God. Sin must be recognized as sin in order to move on.

2. We must also recognize that God loves us even when we sin: Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

3. All persons caught up in sinnful lifestyles must repent of their sin. Lu 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

4. Once our heart is willing to repent and obey God then we must Call on the name of the Lord.
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

5. Begin to search for a lifestyle and relationships that please God. Be more concerned for His righteousness than our own lustful desires.

Mt 5:6
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled

Mt 5:10
Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

6. When we have a desire for the roighteousness of God above our own lusts then will he bless us.
Mt 6:33
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you

Ro 8:4
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit

Ro 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

7. Once we have repented, desired the righteousness of God, and called on the name of the Lord, we can know that God no longer holds our past and repented sin against us.

Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

 

The Republicans are just trying to find another boogyman to firm up the base.

It's now disreputable to hate blacks, so it's on to homosexuals.

The democrats do it to, they just use different boogymen. Meantime, the country falls apart, while taxpayers fund political campaigns in the Congress.

 

Thank you for answering my question about Ishmael.

Ok, but we live in a mixed republic not a theocracy. We have no laws that say sinners cannot marry, until and unless they repent.

I think it is a bad idea for homosexual men to marry (unsuspecting) women and vice versa.

 

But, as long as we are allowed to Vote in the "Mixed Republic" don't you think it's a good idea to exert as much pressure as humanly possible not to go the way of Sodom and Gommorah?

As long as we are allowed open and free debate, I WILL resist *any* and *all* attempts to officially sanction such a blantant rebellion against God's express 'preferences' as plainly shown in both the OT and NT...

SMM

 

Well when you get a response from me it will never be from a secular view. I do not have one. I filter all things through scripture.

I find it interesting that since the dems got beat badly the last few elections, they have begun preparing for this election by professing their "spritual faith".

They now realize that faith in God is imortant to a majority of Americans. So they want in on some of the winning action.

And we do not have a law that says those who claim to be homosexual cannot get married. But the country does not sanction marriage between two men or two women. But no one has said they cannot marry at all. Just needs to be the opposite sex.

You see they have the same rights as we do as is described on the law books.

 

What about men or women, Christian or not, whose spouses leave them?

What about men and women who were divorced before becoming a believer? The latter is my situation. My husband had an affair and left us before I was believer, and he later re-married. Meanwhile, as a single mother, I became a believer. I do not consider my divorced state sinful because it has been forgiven through Christ (I do disapprove of divorce now, as well).

 

Having been through a divorce prior to turning my life over to the Lord, I understand your situation. And I am sorry to hear that you had to endure that and must continue to. No sin is in a perpetual state (as some may preach) once repented of and under the blood.

Divorce is not Gods idea of marriage or family. At the same time a sin filled world that rebells against God is not what he would have for you or I.

Your situation was never sinful for you whether it was before or after your conversion. And unfortunately you and the children must suffer the consequences. I do imagine Gods grace in it all has become apparent for you. If it hasnt it can.

Our discussion here has been about homosexual "families. Which are actually psuedo families. Your situation can in no way be compared with the homosexual lifestyle. Although there are those in the world who try to make that example.

It can be hard to be a Christian with a divorce in our past. Some times we kind of hang on to the guilt and shame. Churchy folks have a way of reminding us of our past. I do hope you have a home church that is supportive.

Ro 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 

Thanks, RevMitchell, for the kind words. I do have a supportive church and friends and, in fact, I'm a missionary. My mission board and supporting churches are all aware of this in my past.

I heartily oppose any legal sanction of homosexual relationships, whether civil unions or marriage. I had many gay friends before becoming a Christian and do not have hard feelings toward them, but I cannot sanction their relationships.

 

Marcia,

I don't want to stir up a big pot of stink. But, I do want to share this verse with you...

1 Corinthians 7:15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

Each abandonment is unique and, if I were a pastor, I'd have to delve into the particulars before I would even consider marrying someone who had been divorced...

But, I do consider the "Pauline Exclusion" applicable to people of Faith...

I am pretty 'liberal' about things that happen BC (Before Christ)...

But, those are 'other' threads'...

I wish for you the absolute best God can give you.

SMM

 

Thanks, SMM. The end of my marriage was quite awhile ago -- 1989. It is my ex-husband (still not a believer) who remarried, not me.