The Second Coming Of Our Lord Jesus Christ

2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers,

"The devil made me do it".

 

You got one thing right . The so-called pretrib rapture is a mystery not known in Scripture. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Strange that one would use thier own
definition of 'mystery' when the
post i gave before has TWO DEFINITIONS of
'mystery'

-------------------------------------
5. Mystery of Christ:
the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel

Ephesians 3:2-12 (NIV):

2 Surely you have heard about the administration
of God's grace that was given to me for you,
3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation,
as I have already written briefly.
4 In reading this, then, you will be able
to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,
5 which was not made known to men in other generations
as it has now been revealed by the Spirit
to God's holy apostles and prophets.
6 This mystery is that through the gospel
the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel,
members together of one body, and sharers
together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
7 I became a servant of this gospel by the
gift of God's grace given me through the working
of his power.
8 Although I am less than the least of all God's
people, this grace was given me: to preach to
the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make plain to everyone the administration
of this mystery, which for ages past was
kept hidden in God, who created all things.
10 His intent was that now, through the church,
the manifold wisdom of God should be made
known to the rulers and authorities in
the heavenly realms,
11 according to his eternal purpose
which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12 In him and through faith in him
we may approach God with freedom and confidence.

This is interesting because both verse 5 and 9
define "mystery".
----------------------------------
The two Biblical definitions of 'mystery'
are bolded above.

 

You got one thing right . The so-called pretrib rapture is a mystery not known in Scripture. </font>[/QUOTE]MERCY, You're never going to "SEE" what you don't want to "SEE", have you "Closed your eye/ears" like the Jews when Jesus tried to explain what they didn't understand???

"Pre text" is not "Context", why read/study scripture "IF" you already know the scriptures, Jews studied the OT for about 2 thousand years and believed they understood most of it, then tried to "Correct Jesus".

"Personal Preference" for one doctrine over another does not make it correct.

"HUMBLE AS A CHILD", without personal preferences, and the "SPIRIT" will teach you the correct doctrine.

When you close your mind, you might as well "close the book".

And "NNE" knows all the scripture.

 

ED

Sometime the "Simplist things" in scripture "trip people up", take the following verses.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die,

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, (DIE)

One verse says men will die once,

One verse says "SOME WILL NOT DIE".

Without a rapture, this can't be explained using the scripture.

 

Amen, Brother Me4Him -- Preach it!

 

OldRegular, page 4: "That is because you have been too
busy posting TEE HEE to read and understand."

OldRegular, page 6: "Again Ed your response would be
laughable if it were not so sad."

Please figure which one of your double standards that
you expect me to defend against?

OldRegular, page 6:
"You dispensationalists, no matter what breed, have got to decide whether
[1]those for whom Jesus Christ died to redeem to God the Father are the beloved of God
or
[2] whether the unbelieving, stiffnecked Jews are the beloved of God.

In truth, set [2] is a subset of set [1].
That is every member of the group: "unbelieving, stiffnecked Jews"
are members of the goup of those for whom Jesus Christ died to redeem to God the Father.

So you posed a false dichotomy.

OldRegular, Page 7:
I have said it before on this thread the dispensationalist must
decide who constitute the Children of God,

"1. the Church, those who are saved through the sacrifical death of Jesus Christ, God the Son,
2. or the Jews, the national Jewish Israeli as Ed states. "

Your God is too small if He can't have both of them be THE CHILDREN OF GOD.
Evidentily dispensationalists have a bigger, more powerful God

Again, you pose a false dichotomy.

OldRegular:
//If they believe, as Ed apparently does from earlier remarks that he has posted,
that the national Jewish Israeli are the people of God,
despite their rejection of Jesus Christ,

1. they needs to convert immediately.
2. they need to reject Jesus Christ just as the Jews did and still do.
3. they need to do it quickly//


This is really bad advise. In my earlier remarks, that the author of this
bad advise evidently didn't understand I explained the
Economy of God: where God's end is told though we humans are at the start.
To end this confusion of the author, you have to accept the hope that
Jesus will come get the mostlyh Gentile Church before the TRibulation
Period. The Tribulation is God's plan to save the national Jewish Israeli.

Of course, if one doesn't hope in Jesus coming to get the Gentile Age elect
church before the Tribulation period, then one will always be confused
about the truths of God.

 

Ed,

Many pretribs believe the identify of restrainer of 2 Thess. 2:6-7 is Holy Spirit. When 'he is taken out of the way' is speak of Holy Spirit shall be removed -rapture, then Antichrist shall be revealed - vs. 8.

Does Paul actual saying 'he' of verse 7 is Holy Spirit? Silence. I believe 'he' of verse 7 is speak of Satan. How do I know?

I find 2 Thess. 2:6-8 (even thru verse 9) is refer with Rev. 20:1-7.

I understand 'he' of verse 6 & 7 is speak of Satan, the only way that you shall able to understand what verse 7 is talking about, read start with verse 3 thru 8 or continue thru to 9 in contextually.

Start with verse 3 thru 9:

'man of sin' - vs. 3
'the son of perdition' - vs. 3
'himself'. 4
'he' - vs. 4
'himself' - vs. 4
'he' - vs. 4
'he' - vs. 6
'his' - vs. 6
'the mystery of iniquity' - vs. 7
'he' - vs. 7
'he' - vs. 7
'Wicked'
'him' - vs. 9
'SATAN' - vs. 9

Holy Spirit is not mentioned in the context of verse3 thru 9. The context of verse 3 thru 9 focus on Satan.

Paul tells us, do not let anyone deceive us of any false teachings on the timing of Christ's coming. He says, our gathering together/day of Christ shall not come till we must see apostasy come first, and then we shall see the revealed of man of sin.- 2 Thess. 2:3.

Pretribs interpreting verse 4 saying that, Antichrist shall sit in the building of temple in Jerusalem. At first, I thought verse 4 tells us that the Antichrist shall sit in the temple - literally. Now, I understand what verse 4 talking about.

Notice, word, 'sitteth' of verse 4 means to take over, power, and authority.

'The temple of God' is not talking about literal buiding of the temple in Jerusalem, it talks about Church. Paul tells us, that we are the temple of God- 1 Cor. 3:16-17; and 6:19-20.

I understand 2 Thess 2:4 telling us, Satan shall persecute against the Church.

'Sitteth' is a perfect example of Rev. 17:9 says, "And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountians, on which the woman sitteth."

Many have different view of the idoentify of the seven mountians, what they are. Some say, they are Revived Roman Empire, some say, they are Jerusalem, some say, they are Iraq, etc.

I believe the seven mountians are represent seven continents. When I was a boy, I was in the classroom. I learned from the teacher taught me about continent. Continent means a large dry body of the land. There are seven continents:

1. North America
2. South America
3. Africa
4. Europe/Russia/Asia
5. Austriala
6. Antractica
7. Greenland(I consider it is a continent)

Rev. 17:9 gives us the picture of a woman sits on the seven mountians mean, the wicked world system(Rev. 17:5) is rule over the world.

Now back to 2 Thess. 2:4. Verse 4 tells us, Satan shall blasphemy against God and the temple of God. I find a refer of verse 4 with Rev. 13:6 says, "And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his TABERNACLE, and them that dwell in heaven."

Three things that Satan blasphemy against: 1. God 2. God's people in heaven 3. God's tabernacle

Will we see another literal building of tabernacle in the wilderness in the great tribulaiton period same as in Moses' day?

No. Tabernacle is a symbol of Church. Verse 6 telling us, Satan shall blasphemy against God's people of the earth.

2 Thess. 2:4 tells us, Satan shall rule over Church, means he shall persecute against the Church. How do I know?

After Rev. 13:6 talking about Satan shall blasphemy against God, and His people, then next verse 7 says, "And it was given unto him to make WAR with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations." Verse 7 tells us, Satan shall persecute against Church.

Now back to 2 Thess. 2:4 again. Verse 4 says, "...he as God sitteth in the temple of God...". It tells us, Satan shall take over Church by persecute against them. Verse 4 is same as Rev. 13:6-7.

Then, next verse - 2 Thess. 2:5 says, "Remember ye not, that, WHEN I was yet with you, I told you these things?."

Early in my Christian life. I do not understand what verse 5 is talking about. Now I understand what verse 5 is talking about. The only way we can understand what verse 5 is tlaking about. We have to read back to the first epistle(letter) of Thessalonians. Notice 1 Thess. 3:4 says, :For verily, WHEN we were with you, we TOLD you before that we SHOULD SUFFER TRIBULATION, even as it came to pass, and YE KNOW."

2 Thess. 2:4-5 telling us, Paul says, Satan shall persecute against us(Church), as what He already told us, that we are appointed for tribulation(1 Thess. 3:3).

Clearly, our gathering together shall NOT come till first we shall see come apostasy and then we shall see the revealed of man of sin. The passage of 2 Thess. 2:1-8 telling us, that our gathering together/day of Christ shall NOT come till we must see come apostasy first and the revealed of the man of sin.

2 Thess. 2:6 says, "And now ye know what whithholdeth that he might be revealed in his time."

Withholdeth means hold back. Paul tells us, Satan is now being holding back from being to be revealed.

2 Thess. 2:7 says, "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

'The mystery of iniquity' of verse 7 find in 1 John 2:18 & 4:3. 1 John 2:18 says, "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even NOW are there many antichrists; whereby we KNOW that it is the last time." And 1 John 4:3 says, "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and EVEN NOW ALREADY IS IT IN THE WORLD."

Paul tell us, the wicked world system is already spread over the world. - 2 Thess. 2:7a.

I will continue discuss on 2 Thess. 2:7 refers with Rev. 20:1-7 in the next post. Because this post is already long. So, I better stop, and break post into part two.

To be continued....

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

To be continued...

2 Thess. 2:7b says, "only he who now letteth will let"

Notice word, 'letteth' of verse 7 in KJV. This word in Greek means hold back. Word, 'letteth' sounds funny to me in KJV. I rather use Greek word for 'hold back' than KJV. In Greek translationof verse 7 says, that he is now holding back. That means, Satan is now being resisting from being to be revealed.

Clearly, 2 Thess. 2:6-7 telling us, Satan is NOW bound and being chained from being to be revealed. 2 Thess. 2:6-7 support Rev. 20:1-3 say, "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, haing the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid HOLD ON the dragon, that old serpent, which is the DEVIL, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, and cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."

Satan is being chained is the picture of spiritual meaning that he is now being limited, and he is now being HOLD BACK from being to deceive the world, and being to be revealed.

Paul tells us, Satan is now holding back from to be revealed, God does not allow Satan to be revealed and to deceive the world. God knows when the right time to come, then God shall allow Satan to be loosed out of the way.

God does not allowed Satan to deceive the world, till Church becomes apostasy, as it getting worst, then God knows when the right time to come, then He shall allow Satan to be loosed out of the way.

Notice, 2 Thess. 7:c says, "UNTIL he be taken out of the way." Notice it says, 'out of the way' of KJV, in Greek translation says, 'out of the midst'. I understand what 2 Thess. 2:7c saying. It tells us, Satan shall be loosed out of the midst according to Rev. 20:3 -'he must be LOOSED a little season." Also, Rev. 20:7 says, "...Satan shall BE LOOSED OUT OF HIS PRISON."

Right now, Satan is now being holding back from being to be loosed, and being to be revealed.

Rev. 11:7 supports Rev. 20:3 & 7, it says: "And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ASCENDETH OUT OF THE BOTTOMLESS PIT shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them."

Clearly, it tells us, right now, Satan is now being holding back, while they(Church) are continuing witness the gospel over the world. When Church becomes apostasy('falling away first'- 2 Thess. 2:3), when the time comes, Satan shall be loosed out of the way, and then shall persecute against Church.

Also, Rev. 17:8 refers with Rev. 20:3 & 7. It says, "The beast that thou sawest was, AND IS NOT, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, AND IS NOT, and yet is."

It tells us, John saw the beast was there, now he is not, he shall be ascend out of the place. It speaks of Satan, which was deceived the world before Calvary. At Calvary, Satan was bound and hold back from deceive the world. Because Christ already given His power to Church to witness the gospel to the world. Satan CANNOT stop Church from witness the gospel to the world. That why he is now holding back.

2 Thess. 2:6-8 telling us, Satan is now being holding back from being to be revealed. Who causes Satan being to be holding back? Holy Spirit. I am sure that all pretribs agree with me, that Holy Spirit holds Satan from being to be revealed. Even, Holy Spirit IS God. Not only Holy Spirit, also, Jesus Christ!!! Who is an angel of Rev. 20:1? Jesus Christ.

So, 2 Thess. 2:6-7 telling us, Jesus Christ have power to hold Satan from being to be revealed, and to be loosed out of the way. When Christ knows the right time to come. Then, Christ will allow Satan to be loosed out of the midst. THEN, verse 8 tells us, Satan shall be revealed. Satan shall deceive the world, even, also saints too.

Premills would saying to me, 'wait a minute, cannot you see the world is already deceived right now?' I know the Bible tells us that Satan is the prince of the air. Satan's job is to blind people from hear and understand the gospel of salvation. BUT, one thing Satan CANNOT stop- prevent Church from witness or spreading the gospel over the world.

2 Thess. 2:8-10 is also refer with Rev. 13:13; and Rev. 20:8, these telling us, when Satan shall be loosed out of the midst, he shall be revealed, to deceive nations, even, also saints too.

Right now, Satan is still an angel, he is spirit, does not have body.

During Old Testament period, Jesus Christ was an angel, he is spirit, does not have body. When Christ came to earth, he becames into man, and have body. He shew Jews that He is their true Messiah, by doing miracles. They rejected him.

Satan will do the same thing as what Christ did 2,000 years ago. Satan shall be transformed into a man, and to be act like Messiah, shall caused world to worshipping him, even might deceive saints too(Matt. 24:24).

Conclusion: 2 Thess. 2:6-8 do not discuss about Holy Spirit and rapture. This passage say nothing about our gathering together, resurrection, coming of Christ. It talking about Satan is now being hold back from being to be revealed. When the right time comes, Satan shall be loosed out of the way, then he shall be revealed.

'Proof' of pretrib on 2 Thess. 2:6-8 is fallacy and flaw. Because that teaching is logically and flaw. The only way that we can understand 2 Thess. 2:6-8 better, to read the context start with verse 3 thru 9, so, we can understand verse 7 better. Pretrib oftens emphasis verse 7 talks about the removal of the Holy Spirit is the rapture. They take this verse out of its context, what the whole context is talking about.

I hope that you understand what 2 Thess. 2:1-10 is talking about. My suggest you, better read whole context of 2 Thess. 2:1-17, what it is all talking about.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

OldRegular: "I ask for the third time Ed."

I answered your question the first time you asked.
Then I wrote an answer to your question but hadn't typed it up.
Then you asked a second time before i typed it up.
Then I typed up the answer and posted it,
and apparently you missed it???

Show me from the Bible where you find "Jews" in Acts 7:51-60.
In fact, God is speaking to the real killers of Jesus:
you and I.

 

Jesus said the gates of hell (satan) could never prevail over his church, why, because the "ONE WHO IS IN YOU IS GREATER THAN "HE" WHO IS IN THE WORLD", (Satan)

Mt 16:18 I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

1Jo 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is "HE" that is in you, than he that is in the world.


WHO is in us, or the world for matter, who is greater than Satan, only the "HOLY GHOST".

But once "HE" is removed, look at what happens.

Da 7:21 I beheld, and the "same horn" (Antichrist) made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

There are "pages" of scripture and things Jesus said that will "CONTRADICT" themselves if the HG isn't removed.

 

Amen, Brother Me4Him -- Preach it!

 

Tee hee!

Luke 19:43-44 (HCSB = Holman Christian Standard Bible):

43 For the days will come upon you when your
enemies will build an embankment against you,
surround you, and hem you in on every side.
44 They will crush you and your children
within you to the ground, and they will not
leave one stone on another in you, because
you did not recognize the time of your
visitation."

 

2Th 2:1 Now wee beseech you, brethren, by the comming of our Lord Iesus Christ,
and by our gathering together vnto him,
2Th 2:2 That yee bee not soone shaken in minde, or bee troubled,
neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as from vs,
as that the day of Christ is at hand,
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceiue you by any meanes, for that day shall not come,
except there come a falling away first, and that man of sinne
bee reuealed, the sonne of perdition,
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himselfe aboue all that
is called God, or that is worshipped: so that he as God,
sitteth in the Temple of God, shewing himselfe that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember yee not, that when I was yet with you, I tolde you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now yee know what withholdeth, that hee might bee reuealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mysterie of iniquitie doth alreadie worke:
onely he who now letteth, will let, vntill he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that wicked bee reuealed,
whome the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth,
and shall destroy with the brightnesse of his comming:
2Th 2:9 Euen him whose comming is after the working of Satan,
with all power and signes, and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceiueablenesse of vnrighteousnesse, in them that perish: because they receiued not the loue of the trueth, that they might be saued.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should beleeue a lye:
2Th 2:12 That they all might bee damned who beleeued not the trueth, but had pleasure in vnrighteousnes

Alright, we want to talk about the resolution of the pronouns
in 2 Thess 2:7. in 2 Thess 2:7. But i think we should also
look at the resolution of the pronouns: 'what' and 'he' in
2 Thess 2:6.


DeafPosttrib: "The context of verse 3 thru 9 focus on Satan."

You have an interesting list. Why did you cut out verses 1,2,10, and 11 ?

They all go together. And there are other persons mentioned in
the verses 1-11 of 2 Thess 2.

1. first member of the Trinity, God the Father - v. 4 (3 times), 11
2. Second member of the Trinity, Jesus, the Messiah, the son - 1,2, and 8

1. first member of the unholy trinity,
Satan the pseudo-Father - v 9

2. second member of the unholy trinity,
Antichrist, the son (AKA: man of sin, son of perdition)

BTW, nowhere in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-11 is the 'Antichrist' mentioned
by the term 'Antichrist'. Again I ask, how do you know that 'man of sin'
and 'son of perdition' pertain to the Antichrist? I'll tell you,
if you assume that these are the Antichrist, it leads to no contradictions.
If you assumed the 'man of sin' is NOT the Antichrist then you have
contradictions. It seems common to assume that the 'man of sin' in
2 Thess 2, the beast from the sea in Revelation 12, the Prince
(not Messiah the Prince) from Daniel 9, the Antichrist from 2 John --
it makes sense to consider these all the same person and does not
lead to contradictions.

If one assumes that the 'Day of the Lord' in 2 Peter 3:10 is the
one-and-only-one 48-hour-day that Jesus appears again followed
directly by the destruction of the earth. Assume that and then you
have contradictions with other scriptures: primarily Revelation 20
which tells many details between the Second Coming of Jesus in power and
glory to destroy the Antichrist and the destruction of the heavens
and the earth.

So it makes sense to assume that the Antichrist of 2 John,
the beast from the sea in Revelation 12, and the man of sin from
2 Thess 2 are the same person. Apparently from the scriptures, at
in the mid-tribuaation crises Satan will indwell the Antichrist and
the Antichrist (a man-of-sin with his own spirit and will) will become
the spiritof Satan and will of Satan.

DeafPosttrib: "2 Thess. 2:4 tells us, Satan shall rule over Church,
means he shall persecute against the Church"

I missed that. Show me.