The Second Coming Of Our Lord Jesus Christ

And I'm beginning to believe for "you" and "old Regular", "it is finished", as far as learning anything new.

Like the "old preacher said", there been enough gospel preached to "SAVE THE WORLD", but they won't listen/consider.

 

Me4Him,

Well, then you saying, you believe 'law' and 'prophets' shall be restoration again in the great tribulation.

In other word, you believe Jews will have to follow 400 laws, and doing animal sacrifice again in the great tribulation.

Also, you believe two prophets like Moses and Elijah will preaching to people in the great tribulation.

We have no 'prophets' on earth today. Because we have Bible. Bible have answer of everything.

Revelation chapter 11 of 2 witnesses- does not saying of the identify who will be the witness.

Rev. 11:4 says, they are 'two olive trees' and 'two candlesticks'. They are symbol meaning. I believe they are real. Does this mean they are the exactly numbers of the olive trees & candlesticks are TWO? No.

Understand, Bible teaches us, when we go on evangelizing or 'soul winning', must have two or more witnesses to preaching the gospel to lost people.

I believe two witnesses of Revelation chapter 11 must speak of us as Church that we are witness for Jesus Christ. We are the olive tree of Romans chapter 11, and we are candlestick of Revelation 1:20.

Rev. 11:7 says, "And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against THEM, and shall overcome THEM, and kill THEM."

Does this verse telling us, the beast shall war against only two persons?

How about Rev. 13:7 says, "And it was given unto him to make war with the SAINTS, and to overcome THEM: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations." ?

Obivous, both Rev. 11:7 & 13:7 telling the same thing. So, therefore, Rev. 11:7 tells us the beast shall make war(persecute) against saints, and kill them.

The Bible doesn't say that we shall see prophets appear again, like as back in the old time - Old Testament Prophets. We do not need other prophet anymore. Because we have Bible. Bible have the answers of everything. We witness to people from the Bible, to warn them about judgment, hell, and salvation too.

Also, we do not need another animal sacrifices or offerings again today. We are God's priests. Jesus Christ is OUR Lamb. We have right to ask Christ to forgive and clean our sins through His blood daily. That why, Christ said, "It is finished" on the cross. At the same time, the veil in the temple was tearing down from top to bottom. It shew us that physical temple is no longer need anymore. Now, Christ is OUR Temple. We are the priests. We have right to enter into the temple, which is Jesus Christ. Ask Christ to forgive us our sins 24 hours daily.

Also, we do not have to follow all 400 laws. We are under the grace. Telling me, show me where a verse in the New Testament saying that we will have to follow laws. Also, tell me, where a verse in New Testament saying the laws will be return again for the great tribulation right after rapture?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Do you believe the "sacrifices" under the OT paid the "WAGES OF SIN"??

Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Revelation doesn't tell you much about anything "on it's own", the interpretations of it's "SYMBOLS" are found in the OT, and without that knowledge, its useless to read Revelations.

I suppose Moses/Elijah appearing with Jesus was also, "symbols"???

Kinda hard to kill "Symbols" and have them lay in the streets 3 days then be resurrected, isn't it???

The beast wars against "everyone" actually, but the world doesn't have a "PARTY" and "Exchange gifts" when others die as they do when they two die.

Re 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Yes they are Killed, along with Millions of others, anyone confessing Jesus will receive "First priority", they will have to "literally" Crucify the "old man" (flesh) for Jesus salvation.

The "Church" doesn't see them, we're rapture before they appear, the church doesn't need "signs and wonders" as the Jew in order to believe, the reason they physically die.

The sacrifices under the OT didn't save them either, they had to wait until Jesus paid the wages of sin for them before they could "go to heaven", those were the ones held captives by sin.

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive,

The "LAW" requires "DEATH FOR SIN", and during the trib, they "LITERALLY DIE" for Jesus's salvation.

Your understanding of the relationship between Jesus/Israel, is not much better than the Jews understanding of the relationship between God/Church, they don't believe one exist. (Jesus/church)

Ya need to "work on that".

 

Well the Jews, who had the "oracles of God" and knew of the coming Savior rejected the Gospel when Jesus Christ preached it in person and still do. They continue to do so after 6+ million were killed by the Nazi. </font>[/QUOTE]Jews interpret scripture "LITERALLY", and the promise to send a Messiah along with his "Kingdom", conquer all of Israel's enemies, was taken to mean a "literal coming" and a "literal Kingdom".

Jesus and this "Spiritual Kingdom", church, was a "mystery" not revealed to Israel.

Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Since Israel was expecting a "literal Messiah/Kingdom, and doesn't belief in "Human sacrifices" for sin, "PASSOVER LAMB", Jesus was rejected as being the Messiah.

The 7th day of rest (MK) is actually the "KINGDOM" promised to the Jews in the OT, a "literal" Messiah/Kingdom, conquering all of Israel's enemies.

But without these "Literal", "Signs and wonders", Jews wont believe, therefore they enter the trib where not only are "literal" signs and wonders" present but also the "DEVIL" is "LITERALLY PRESENT" in the form of "HIS SON". (AC)

And instead of "Spiritually drinking of Jesus's "CUP", (Crucify old man) they will "LITERALLY" drink of Jesus's "CUP", that is "LITERALLY DIE" for his Salvation.

Re 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God,

Jesus doesn't deal with Israel, they've already rejected HIM, (rapture)

The Trib is between "GOD" and Israel, as it was under the OT. (trinity)

 

WHEEE!!!!

I can "SEE" my "work" cut out for me.

But it will have to be "LATER", grass need Mowing.

 

I was wondering...

Luke 18:7-8 states:

"And shall not God avenge His own elect, which cry day and night unto Him, though he bear long with them? (Rev. 6:10)
I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall He find faith on the earth?" (the clear implication is that no, He will not)

How then can that be true without a rapture?

The Preterist view precludes any possibility for Christ to be correct here since it is clear that many of the faith were on Earth in 70AD.

 

These verses are talking about Christ shall come like as 'thief in the night', to caught any person who is not ready and watch for His coming, there will be FEW who are remain faithful at Christ's coming. Most are not remain faithful, most are astraying away, and sleep, pleasure in the world. When Christ shall come, it will shocked people who are not ready and watch will be caught as thief for the judgement.

These verses do not prove partial rapture or 70 A.D. either. These are given warning to us, that we ought always be watch and ready for His coming, so, we shall not be caught while sleep and playing with world. Because we all shall face the judgment seat of Christ at His coming. The judgment is a terror and trembling for everyone of us to face Christ. We ought always be watch and ready for His coming all the times.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

DeafPosttrib: //Well, then you saying, you believe 'law' and 'prophets' shall
be restoration again in the great tribulation.

//In other word, you believe Jews will have to follow 400 laws
and doing animal sacrifice again in the great tribulation.//

I think the Jews have 365 postive laws and 219 'do not' laws making 584.
I'm not good at remembering numbers.

BTW, the Bible often does not distinguish between 'aught to do' and
'will do' especially in prophecy. The Bible says Antichrist will pass
himself as god (maybe 2 Thess 2) the Antichrist will enter the temple
to commit the Abomination of Desolation (Daniel 9:27). These and other
prophecies indicate the Temple will be working and in order.

I was speaking with a non-messanic Jew who was of the sect
of the Pharasees (yes, they are still around) and a Rabinnical sutdent
(studying to be a Rabbi). He says he is taught that when Messiah comes He will do
these things:

1. Bring peace to Yisrael
2. restore the daily sacrifice
3. rebuild the Temple on Temple Mount

Obviously i see it the other way around, whoever does this will be
recognized by the unsaved Jews as the Messiah. Instead of Jesus the Messiah,
this honor will be bestowed upon the Antichrist (some say the Beast from the
land). At the Mid-tribulation crises, I believe the Antichrist will go
into the temple (perchance to dedicate it?) and declare himself as being God.
Then many national Jewish Israeli will see that Jesus really is the Messiah
and thus be saved (by accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior).

BTW, some anti-semetic people always want to accuse me of listening
to a Jew more than the Bible. It won't work. I believed all this
about the Bible prophecy before i talked to this Jewish student.
So what my story is about is what the Jews are expecting TODAY. And
it only seems likely they will get what they are looking for.

Deafposttrib: //Also, you believe two prophets like Moses and Elijah will
preaching to people in the great tribulation. //

Amen, Brother DeafPosttrib -- Preach it! I think you may be a pretrib yet

Deafposttrib: //We have no 'prophets' on earth today. Because we have Bible.
Bible have answer of everything.//

"We" means what? You and I need no prophets, we are gentile Church Age
(AKA: Gentile Age) redeemed, born-again, children of God, Christian
elect church saints. At the first sound you hear 'we' will be called
up to Jesus BEFORE THE RAPTURE. 'We' will not be here in the Tribulation
period. The Jewish Israeli elect chruch saints will be here in
the Tribulation period. Those start out the Tribulation Period as
merely national Jewish Israeli will become Jewish Israeli elect chruch saints
at the midtrib crisis (ONE JEW AT A TIME). (Those who don't
are severely punished in the Great Tribulation).

Deafposttrib: //Revelation chapter 11 of 2 witnesses- does not saying of the
identify who will be the witness.//

Which part of LIKE are you having problems with?
Here let me help you with some bolding:

Deafposttrib: //Also, you believe two prophets like Moses and Elijah
will preaching to people in the great tribulation. //


Pretty unnammed poster:
//Of course you have previously stated on more than one
occasion that the Jew provides atonement for his own sin.//

Let us just consider the assumption: "the Jew provides atonement for his own sin".

I don't remember Me4Him saying that.
I remember a certain poster here who shall remain nameless said
Me4Him said it. The statement has no meaning for the Theological meaning
of the word: 'atonement'.

ATONEMENT2 - n. 2. (sometimes cap.) Theol.
the doctrine that the reconcilation of God and man
will be accomplished through Christ

Obviously 'through Christ' doesn't fit your claimed saying.

He would have had to of mean something like:
//the Jew provides reconcilation of God and man
through Christ for his own sin//

Looks pretty invalid, eh?

I have done a reduction to the obsurd. Your assumption
that Me4him said "the Jew provides atonement for his own sin'
is what is wrong.

Even so, Lord Jesus come soon!

 

Me4Him: //Jesus and this "Spiritual Kingdom", church, was
a "mystery" not revealed to Israel.//


The magnificent mystery poster:
//not according to:

//John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world:
if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight,
that I should not be delivered to the Jews:
but now is my kingdom not from hence.

//and

//Luke 24:25-27
25. Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart
to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26. Ought not Christ to have suffered these things,
and to enter into his glory?
27. And beginning at Moses and all the prophets,
he expounded unto them in all the scriptures
the things concerning himself. //

Uh, neither of these verses prove Brother Me4Him's statement wrong.

The Old Testament points to Messiah Jesus, but does not
clearly delineate the office, nature, and history of Messiah
through all the various visitiations to earth.
(Just as the O.T. and the N.T. show all of God's Plan for the Ages
as illustrated by the charts Brother Me4Him's has shared with us.
But one has to work with the Bible to dig it all out)

Jesus and this "Spiritual Kingdom", church, was
a "mystery" not revealed to Israel.
As all mysteries it was revealed unto the Body of Christ, the
largely Gentile, Gentile Age redeemed, born-again elect church saints.

Here is the definitions of a 'mystery':

Ephesians 3:4-5 (NIV):
In reading this, then, you will be able
to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,
5 which was not made known to men in other generations
as it has now been revealed by the Spirit
to God's holy apostles and prophets.

A 'mystery' is that which is not known in one age but is
revealed by God to another age.

Me4Him: //Jesus and this "Spiritual Kingdom", church, was
a "mystery" not revealed to Israel.//

This 'mystery' was not revealed to Israel but to the church.

Ephesians 3:8-11 (NIV):
Although I am less than the least of all God's
people, this grace was given me: to preach to
the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make plain to everyone the administration
of this mystery, which for ages past was
kept hidden in God, who created all things.
10 His intent was that now, through the church,
the manifold wisdom of God should be made
known to the rulers and authorities in
the heavenly realms,
11 according to his eternal purpose
which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Oh, interesting, that 'administration of this mystery'.
I think you will find the word translated in the NIV as
'administration' is the Greek word also translated 'dispensation'.

(check this out before roasting Mr. Anon.)

Verse quoted
//John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world:
if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight,
that I should not be delivered to the Jews://

Does not show this to be in error:

Me4Him: //Jesus and this "Spiritual Kingdom", church, was
a "mystery" not revealed to Israel.//

The verse says for the Gentile age 'My kingdom is not of this world'.
This is a true statement when Jesus said it,
This is a true statement now,
But this statement will not be the whole truth in the MK.
In the Messanic physical Millinnial Kingdom (MK) of Jesus the
kingdom will be of this world (not to mention the component
in heaven.

Me4Him: //Jesus and this "Spiritual Kingdom", church, was
a "mystery" not revealed to Israel.//

This says that the 'Spiritual Kingdom' AKA: Church (the physical
mostly Gentile Church Age redeemed elect saints Church) was not
known (fully understood) in O.T. times like it is known in the
Church Age to us.

 

DeafPosttrib:
//Also, we do not need another animal sacrifices or offerings
again today. We are God's priests. Jesus Christ is OUR Lamb.
We have right to ask Christ to forgive and clean our sins
through His blood daily. That why, Christ said,
"It is finished" on the cross. At the same time, the vei
in the temple was tearing down from top to bottom. It shew
us that physical temple is no longer need anymore. Now,
Christ is OUR Temple. We are the priests. We have right
to enter into the temple, which is Jesus Christ. Ask Christ
to forgive us our sins 24 hours daily.//

Or the heart of your message:

//Also, we do not need ...
We are ...
We have right ...
We are ...
We have right ...//

Come on the Second Coming of Jesus is NOT about 'we' Christians.
The seperate fuction: the pretribulation rapture is about
we Christians.

So in the time after the pretribulation rapture, the Tribulation
period


Note DeafPosttrib's post rewritten for the Tribulation period:

National Jewish Israeli will again have animal sacrifices or offerings.
The National Jewish Israeli will not know they
can be God's priests.
Jesus Christ ineeds to be made the Lamb of National Jewish Israeli
The National Jewish Israeli need to find they have right
to ask Christ to forgive and clean their sins
through His blood daily.
Etc.

 

quote:
------------
Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
OldRegular: "I believe Genesis, don't you?"

I beleive in Genesis. I doubt if you do.
I beleive Genesis when it says that God will bless those who bless Abraham
and Abraham's seed. Abraham's seed is Messiah Jesus and the national Jewish
Israeli persons. I therefore make word selections using the fact
that the word "Christ" is an offense to the Jew.
You choose to deliberately be obstinate and defy Genesis by
using offensive terms when Jewish Israeli may be reading this very board.
Those who do not observe God's commands to be kind to Jews are subject
to physical penatlies and consequences even to their children.

I believe in Genesis. I doubt if you do.
I beleive Genesis when it says
that God has an eternal covenant with Abraham, Jacob,
and Iaasic. If God quit that covenant, He would not contine to be God.
Yet you say God has abandonded his covenant to the national Jewish Israeli
in favor of some gentiles.
---------

OldRegular: //Ed I told you that I believe the Book of Genesis. Are you calling
me a liar? If so I will have to report you to the moderators
because I do not lie and strongly resent anyone stating or
implying that I do.//

Interesting that you attack my lead-in sentence of each paragraph and
largely ignore my arguments.

1. "Lie" implies motive. I've found not to even try to figure out
the motives of other posters. We aren't debating people here, we are
debating ideas. And there is a Second Coming(s) idea here that we
aught not to ignore. God's eternal plan is not likely to go awry
cause we don't understand it. God will do God's plan irregardless of us
and what we do.

2. God made an eternal covenent with Abraham. God confirmed the
covenent in Israel, the grandson (not in "the children of Ishmael,
Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak, and Shuah"). God confirmed the
covenant in David and Soloman. If God does not keep His eternal Covenent
with these folks, God is not still God.

3. Some say God's covenent is fulfilled in the Gentile Chruch.
O.K. that is the spiritual component. But God is still going to complete
the rest of the Covent in physical national Jewish Israel (the country).

OldRegular: //Abraham's seed, in addition to Isaac, also includ
the children of Ishmael,
Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak, and Shuah.

//In Genesis 12:3 we read: And I will bless them that bless thee,
and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families
of the earth be blessed.

//In Genesis 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth
be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

//The Apostle Paul tells us that that seed was Jesus Christ in Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not,
And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

//Can you quote for me the passage of Scripture that says
if anyone speaks ill of Abraham's physical descendants,
which i mentioned above, they will be cursed?//

We be glad to:
Genesis 12:3: And I will bless them that bless thee,
and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families
of the earth be blessed.

God has spiritual blessings and physical blessings.

quote:
--------
Originally posted by OldRegular:
"Jesus Christ tells us in Matthew 13:14, 15

14. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith,
By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand;
and seeing ye shall see and shall not perceive:
15. For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are
dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time
they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and
should understand with their heart, and should be converted,
and I should heal them."
--------

quote:
--------
Response posted by Ed Edwards:
Maybe it is just me, but it seems the preacher is preaching
at you and not any national Jewish Israeli.
--------

OldRegular: //Ed

//I assume you are trying to be funny. You worry about offending
a Jew but don't worry about offending God by making light of His Revelation.//

Sorry, i was NOT trying to be funny.
I was dead serious - maybe even ETERNALLY DEAD serious.

BTW, i do not worry about you offending a Jew. I am not
responsible for your eternal soul, you are responsible.

BTW, i resent your baseless charge that I made light of God's Revelation.
I was trying to explain it to you as I was called so to do by God
Himself. Well, on second thought, maybe I was "making light of
His Revelation" TeeHee I'm called to make light2 of God's revelation for others.

(Note for the Humor Impaired: 'Light1' means to trivialize.
'Light2' refers to the shiney stuff.)

Isn't it interesting how different understandings can be made
of the same set of words

Maybe i should have sugared the pill?
It would then read:

Maybe it is just me, but it seems the preacher is preaching
at you and I not the national Jewish Israeli.


And finally: Romans 3:3 means: What if some did not have faith?
Would that negate God's faithfulness?

And my answers are: No matter how faithless the national Jewish Israeli
are, they cannot make God' unfaithful.
The two comings of Jesus, the Messiah, and the end of the Gentile
age are seperated by a Tribulation period. The purpose of this Tribulation
period is to Judge the evil gentiles and save (one Jew at a time) the
national Jewish Israeli. Praise God for His boundless Grace to
us lowely Gentiles.

 

Jesus is going to come get me before
the Tribulation period and take me home
to live with Him.

Maranatha

 

Ed,

Scripture please

About 14 years ago, I saw on T.V. Jews in Israel are still doing laws, keeping Torah, commandments, and STILL doing animal sacrifices or offerings today. Is the Bible still commandment to us to doing animal sacrifices or offerings today? No. Why? Because Jesus Christ is our lamb. We are priests and have right to ask Christ to forgive us our sins 24 hours daily through His blood.

Why National Jewish Israeli still doing today? Because they reject Christ as their Messiah. They are blind. And they didn't realized Jesus Christ was already on earth 2,000 years ago.

I believe Nation Jewish Israeli are continuing doing animal sacrifices or offering in the great tribulation under Antichrist. BUT, these are not under the New Testament anymore. Christ already fulfilled it. They are blind and lost. No matter what how often they are doing animal sacrifices or offerings during greta tribulaiton, they are still blind and lost.

When Jesus Christ returns to earth at the second coming. Nation Jewish Israeli will be shocked and weeping, will their sins be forgiven? NO! All of them will be cast away into everlasting fire because of blind and reject Christ as their messiah.

OR... unless if any nation Jewish Israeli repented of sin, and believe Jesus Christ as Messiah DURING great tribulaiton under this present age, can be forgiven of sins, and be saved before Christ comes.

What IF a nation Jewish Israeli remain blind and not believe Jesus Christ till by the time Christ comes, then it be TOO LATE for that person to have a chance to repent of sins and accept Christ, that person will be caught away as thief in the night, then cast away into the lake of fire at Christ's coming.

I am asking you, give me where a scripturein the Bible to support your comment on nation Jewish Israeli will again have animal sacrifices or offerings during great tribulaiton - PLEASE?

Thanks.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!