The Second Coming Of Our Lord Jesus Christ

The whole Jewish nation will never be saved, because billions of Jews have already rejected their Messiah. All Israel means all believers of all time, not just Jews.

 

Rom. 11 (forgive the footnotes but I'm too tired to delete them)
25For (AL)I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this (AM)mystery--so that you will not be (AN)wise in your own estimation--that a partial (AO)hardening has happened to Israel until the (AP)fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
26and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
"(AQ)THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
27"(AR)THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,
(AS)WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."

 

Uh, they have rapture/resurrection with the mostly Gentiles and other Messianic Jews. They are taken to heaven, rewarded (glorified) there with the 144K duties, then sealed in heaven to protect them on earth. The rest of the Messianic Jews and mostly Gentile saints are taken to heaven where they are rewarded at the Judgment Seat (Award Stand) of Christ.

BTW, ethnic Jews don't care for the term 'Christians' at all. Adolf and his Lutherans killed 6 million ethnic Jews in the name of Christ.

Christ - a Greek term meaning 'anointed'
Messiah - a Hebrew term meaning 'anointed'

But 'Christ' and 'Christian' carry SIX MILLION dead Jews worth of baggage.

Messianic Jews are National Jews who believe that Jesus is the Messiah.

 

Sorry Amy, that does not fly in context of Romans 11 unless piece meal it together rather than read it verse by verse.

Also 'all' does not always mean 'all of the whole' but it can and also does just as fequently mean 'all of a part of the whole'.

The phrase 'all Israel will be saved' is just such an instance of the later. It identifies the subject who is Israel which Paul already establishes in Chapter 9 and 10 is National Ethnic Israel. Thus it is describing them as a Nation (though of course individually- but this time as a people) receiving Christ Jesus as Lord and Messiah.

This is no different than Atonement sacrifice for 'all' Israel to atone for 'all Israel'. But was 'all Israel' saved? No. Yet scripture declares "Israel" as being clean because of this atonement. So it is identifying the majority of the people who received the atonement made - Israel.


(You do realize that in Roman 9 and 11 Paul is distquishing between National Israel and Church - read it and watch especially contrasting 9 and 10, and then 10 to 11. Even in chapter 11 there is a distinction made between Israel and the Church).

 

I hardly ever debate on end times. I will not on this thread. I just wanted to highlight one line before you guys move on.
'all' does not always mean 'all of the whole'

I may save this link.

It has been rather fun to read these threads and not post. I think I have got more out of it that way. When I say got more out of it, i'm not saying I have learned much about the position's of the sides. In fact there is nothing new that i have seen. No new fresh look. Its rather the same points that I read years ago. One side knows their position well, but does not seem to understand the other side. This goes both ways.

What I mean by, "I have got more out of it", is that I have seen more of the nature of debate exposed. It seems that the main drive of the debate is to point out the obstacles that they (the poster) can't overcome in order to believe as the other side does.

When one gets into a posting mode, it becomes their mission and therefore they post arguments in order to make their views seem stronger. The way this is done is to post what they see as a weakness of the other side. Its a weakness for them, because their drive is to protect their position.

What is interesting to watch is that the arguments will change hands among the debaters, depending on the subject matter. The argument used above would never be used in a C/A debate by Allan, because that argument is not needed to help his position in the C/A debate. However, a Calvinist needs that argument to boost its position, and as you know will use it.

At times a debater sees a passage as literal and other times figurative. This will change when the subject changes. When its is their position and its supported with the literal meaning of the text, the literalist feels like they have the strongest position. After all it is them...their side... that reads the Bible literally. This is seen by them as the highest position to hold. Its what the Bible says...it really means what it says.

However, as the subject changes and there is a move to another passage where literal meaning does not support their position, they have no problem in abandoning their high claim of literal meaning. It no longer seems to matter.

 

You're right, maybe this will help.

Adam's sin condemned all "Flesh", but his sin didn't condemn other "Souls".

A sin of the soul is comitted when the soul "knowing the law" willfully, transgresses the law. (Age of accountibilty)

Jesus died for the sins of the whole world that the whole world "MIGHT BE" saved.

But Jesus "Righteousness" is not imputed to another "Soul" until that soul, Knowing the law/Confessing-repenting of it's sin, is willing to "crucify the flesh". (conform to Jesus's image)

Israel doesn't believe in a "human sacrifice" for sin, they believe they will be saved because God "CHOSE THEM", and just simply "FORGIVES SIN" without requiring anything on their part.

But as Jesus told Nicodemus, "You must be "BORN AGAIN",

Like "Abraham", we have to have "FAITH" that if the "Body" (Issac) is sacrificed, God will resurrect us, (Glorified) and we will live again.

Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

God promised to save a Remnant of Abraham's seed, and he will, but it will only be that "remnant" who are "BORN AGAIN" according to the "plan of salvation".

Who does God consider to be a "JEW"??


Ro 9:6 For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Ro 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit,

Ro 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved:

 

Then Romans 11 is not true, and God's promises to Israel have failed.

 

Should have stayed out of it, as it is intellectually dishonest.

 

Isa 1:9 Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

"ALL" doesn't mean "Every single individual".

Jer 30:11 For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.

Ro 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

To be included in the "ALL Israel saved", one must be "Born again", there are no exceptions.

It may take "Great Tribulation" to get the "Stiffnecked" Jews to "Submit" to Jesus, but in "Tribulation" people always call on God, and a "Remnant" will call on Jesus.

 

I agree, that is why I believe "all Israel" during the great tribulation will be saved, albeit, martyred.

 

Ac 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind,

Re 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

This "mighty spirit" or "Strong delusion" "lie" that God sents is the AC riding his "white horse" appearing to be the "messiah", and many Jews will accept his as Messiah, falling from the "fig tree".

Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: (as being the Messiah)
Re 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True,


if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. (as being the Messiah)
Re 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him:

Israel's "messiah" is a "man of peace", expected to bring peace, of course with the "Treaty", they get peace, for a while.

Da 11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

Israel's Messiah is also a "MAN", like Moses, not "God in the flesh".

Re 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Israel believes God just "forgives sin" (no human sacrifice) and they will be saved because Israel was "Chosen", nothing else.

 

All "flesh" means all men and women - everyone. I am not sure what your distinction here is regarding flesh vs. souls. We are condemned by sin spiritually, mentally, and physically, and also redeemed in all those areas through faith in Christ, though the physical redemption is later.

 

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

The son shall not bear the iniquity (sins) of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son:

the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

In order for a soul to sin, "IT" must commit the sin, Adam's sin condemned "ALL FLESH", (dust to dust) and "Adam's soul", but it didn't condemn any other souls.

A sin is when one "knowing the law/willfully transgresses the law", and where there is "NO LAW", sin is not imputed, such as Infants.

We're born in a "body of sin", already condemned at birth but each soul must commit it's own sin, and each souls will eventually sin, but one sin is all that required to be condemned and no one is "perfect".