"Racially insensitive" remarks by sports figures

and NOT some kind of inherited flaw as many white and black racists try to argue. But the statistics speak for themselves.

First, racism is defined in more ways than admitting inherited flaws. I am not arguing that you believe black Americans are somehow inherently less moral. You have implied that their culture is less moral, not that they are less moral. Once again, please define black culture. You cannot. Black culture, just as white culture, is too diverse. There are many subsets of black culture, and they do not fit into this neat little box. The traits that you presents as distinct black cultural influences are not even present in all subsets of black culture, yet are present in some sets of white culture. What makes them more black than white? Could it be that these cultural influences you have presented are NOT distinctively black, but are a natural progression of our sinful human nature? How can something be distinctively black, yet still present in white culture, and not present in all black culture? Seems quite illogical to me.

Actually that is no longer true.

"Race - 63% of abortion patients are white, however, black women are more than 3 times as likely to have an abortion, and Hispanic women are 2.5 times as likely."

Actually yes, it is. Notice I said overall black women are more likely to have abortions, but in the younger age demographics a higher percentage of white teens have abortions than black teens. Please see statistics from the CDC. 17.2% of white 15-19 yr. olds, compared to 16% of black 15-19 yr.olds.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5407a1.htm#tab11

 

IOW's, I have not proven anything you wanted to hear.

No, you have not proven it is a matter of black culture. I have never denied there was a problem, just your readiness to blame it on black culture. BIG DIFFERENCE.

So basically you are asking to look at studies that will show that this problem and connected problems are illusions? They don't really exist and to the extent they do exist, it is the fault of white people and not the people making the choices as well as those who have direct influence on them?

Now you are putting words in my mouth. I am not blaming anything on white people, as you are so quick to assume. I never even denied that problems exist in the black community. I do not blame them on some ill-defined black culture, though. I was merely pointing out the interesting correlations of DESCRIBING black culture in the terms you have chosen. For instance, Dr. Martin Gilens did a study on the racial perceptions of poor black Americans. One of the questions dealt with if blacks tended to be hardworking or lazy. 44% of respondents placed blacks on the lazy half of the scale, whereas only 20% placed them on the hardworking half of the scale. that is 44% of all respondents, when broken down by racial demographics that number dramatically increases. The researches I mentioned were not meant to prove anything one way or another, and I wish I had time to look them up specifically. I pointed them out because it is interesting to note that when describing one's race a person does not describe it negatively, it is only those who describe another's race that negative distinctions are made, (i.e., it is more likely than not that a black person would not describe their culture as rebellious, but it is more likely that a white person would).

Then this black mother I spoke with was actually white?

No, but it is unlikely that a black woman would define a part of herself and her culture as rebellious with loose sexual morals, and prone to gang violence. It is more likely that the problems she was discussing she did not relate them to her culture or define them that way. You most likely are paraphrasing what you think she meant. Notice, once again, I did not say that she said there was no problem, only that I doubt she attributed them to a specific overall black culture.

Your "visits" are a better basis for establishing a rule than the testimonies of the people I have known?

I will redefine visits. Most of the churches were not the occasional visit, but attending as a prospective member. I stand by my claim that I have never seen a church, black, white, or other which did not take a strong stance against sexual immorality, nor wink at it. If your friends have been in such a church, then, once again, they need a new church.

But we can't ignore the general scope of the problem.

Once again, no one wants to ignore the problem. Do you think the 28,000 families of The Potters House subscribe to this black culture? What of the millions of other members of black churches, do they subscribe to this black culture? Could it be that the problem is not a black culture, but other more salient issues, that affect both blacks and whites? I think so.

 

This has been an interesting thread. I admit, I don't know that much about black culture personaly.
I just think people of every race or background are affected by the sin in the world. Our society seems to be gettin worse no matter who you are or where you live.

 

Then what is it? Why are whites less effected and asians almost not effected at all?

I am not calling our whole culture or much less "white" culture innocent or good. But these problems regardless of their origin have a very long history of growth and apparent acceptance in the black community. Yet here you are saying it has nothing to do with the distinctive black sub-culture(s).

It is a general comment about black culture that mirrors the general reality that blacks have statistically lower morality on sex. That reality is perpetuating the problems and symptoms that hopefully most Americans would like to see an end to.

The statistics relating children of single mothers to increased risks are staggering. Everything from homosexuality to poor school perfomance to chronic unemployment to murder to suicide to drug use to depression exponentially increase.

It is my experience that this is a product of the individual and their sub-culture within the black community. There is a dichotomy between those who have bought into the notion that society owes them something and those who accept that they must pull themselves up by their own bootstraps.

The hardest working person I have ever known was a black lady in Atlanta. She had grown up poor in rural Georgia. She was not well educated but worked hard all the time and tolerated nothing less from those around her.

On the other hand, I have had a few who overtly insenuated that I was treating them with disrespect for asking them to meet the work standards applied to everyone... really no different from any other race.

I don't think that laziness has anything more to do with poverty in the black community than in the white. I believe it goes back to very basic values. Doing right because it is right... and that is cultural. Young people should avoid pre-marital sex not because it might cause them problems as the schools teach (young people can always rationalize risk)... they should be taught to avoid it because it is wrong... and wrong all the time. They must accept that it is never right to take what belongs to others. They must be taught that it is wrong to even associate with those who do wrong.

There are people saying this and I don't want to diminish their efforts... but for every AC Green, how many Scottie Pippens are there? How many Mike Vicks are there that get sued for giving a woman herpes? Many black comedians egrandize sex and black male machismo as do entertainers in predominately black music.

It isn't about the color of skin. It is about the attitudes and cultural mores a large percentage of a particular race appear to have adopted... and their effects on the success of the community as a whole.

A matter of definition. Whatever you want to call resistance to "white" society event to the point of harming yourself and your community... that's what is happening with growing frequency.

The woman I related to earlier didn't live in the city or a low income area. Her child went to a well funded, brand new suburban school.

 

She said that about the kids in school that were negatively influencing her daughter... but what are those kids a product of... someone else's culture?

There are elements in the black community that help shape the culture that encourage loose sex, violence, gangs, etc.

We can either call a spade a spade or we can continue to see millions of young black people fail.

She related them to the black kids in the school as distinctive from the white and latino kids.

I am paraphrasing what she said... you are parsing words for a reason that I can't really understand.

The "overall black culture" includes these elements. Any mention of them and their being a problem in the black community is reacted to as an attack on black people generally... just as you have illustrated in several posts now.

Couldn't agree more.

No. But the "overall black culture" that they are a part of does.

When they make a clean break from the failed social gospel that the civil rights movement became after the early 60's and from a Democratic party that openly supports abortion and sexual deviancy as a "civil rights" issue and the idea that arbitrary wealth re-distribution is "charity"- good for the recipient...

When they openly and publicly repudiate people like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton for their opportunism and manipulation for profit of black people... Condemn rap and hip-hop genres that promote wickedness rather than excusing them as "black expression"... When they publicly demand that black athletes that so many young people of all races look up to epitomize high morals (a la AC Green and Reggie White)...

... when that break is clean then I will agree that they don't "subscribe" to that culture.

There is overlap and I have not denied it. The sexual revolution may stand as the movement that destroyed the US by undermining its families and core values. Blacks and whites alike were victims of liberal academics, media, and ideologies.

There are also causes for the problem that didn't originate with blacks. Prior to the 60's blacks still had a higher illegitimacy rate... higher than poor whites as well. I don't believe that people today should rely on excuses relating to the past. People have to be determined to overcome that no one can undo... like slavery and its effects on the first 2-4 free generations.

Slaves were bred like animals. Attempts were made to engrain the idea into them that they were sub-human... just animals. This isn't an excuse to continue behaviors but rather only one way of possibly explaining why people were inclined the way they were. In this case, "black culture" was shaped by oppression. Problem is that even today some want to defend it as being "black" rather than throwing off a continuing vestige of oppression.

 

I think that most people recognize the term "black culture"; but, there are those who cannot distinguish a remark about "black culture" from one about blacks.

An anecdotal example here locally: We have six blacks in town (but many other minorities). One of those is an exeuctive at the bank. However, the NAACP sent in a young black man from out of town who looked like a thug. His pants were haning halfway down his rear end, his hat was at an angle, he had a pick sticking out of his hair... Basically, a perfect representative of "black culture". He applied for a job at the bank and when he was denied, the NAACP filed a racial discrimination suit. He represented "black culture", but the NAACP said it was racial. (The bank was protected since they were overrepresented by minorities.)

Does "black culture" represent all blacks? Certainly not! Perhaps not even a majority. But, they are a very visible and sizable group, and that is the group that most people (including many other blacks) are opposed to. However, when you oppose that, you are instantly labelled a "racist". You can oppose the same behavior in a white person, and you're OK, though.

 

I agree, Rachel.

 

Then what is it? Why are whites less effected and asians almost not effected at all?

I am not calling our whole culture or much less "white" culture innocent or good. But these problems regardless of their origin have a very long history of growth and apparent acceptance in the black community.

Wow, you certainly have some deep seated preconceived notions/stereotypes. Please note, I did not say “racist”. There have been a lot of assumptions made, as to me being offended at some supposed attack on black Americans. For the record, I am not offended. I am questioning the preconceived notions and stereotypes of black culture presented in this thread and nothing else.

Yet here you are saying it has nothing to do with the distinctive black sub-culture(s).

First it was “distinctive overall black culture”, why are you now reverting to “black subculture”? Which is it?

It is a general comment about black culture that mirrors the general reality that blacks have statistically lower morality on sex. That reality is perpetuating the problems and symptoms that hopefully most Americans would like to see an end to.

I must say, you really have “proved” that the underlying cause of illegitimate black births is a distinctive black culture. I am going to agree with you, and just abandon these facts along the wayside, as they really have no direct effect on the problem at hand.

Fact 1:
All people, not just black Americans, are bombarded with sexually explicit advertising, television, movies, and music. Marketers are sticking to the adage “sex sells”.

Fact 2:
The majority of illegitimate births occur in low socioeconomic areas, for both black Americans and non-Hispanic white Americans. In these areas it is pretty safe to assume that teens have less parental, or other supervision, for a variety of reasons. Do you see where I am going with this?

Fact 3:
As of 1992 there were 85 black females for every 100 black males, aged 15-44. I have not checked recently, but this number has not changed drastically, according to looking at the current population estimates. According to some research from the mid 90’s, I believe by, the National Urban League Research Department, black female teens feel more pressure to have sex to keep “their” boyfriends, due to this ratio of males to females, and because statistically more black men, than women, tend to have relationships with women of different races.

Fact 4:
According the CDC’s final report on birth for 2002, Black tens had the sharpest decline in illegitimate births.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchswww/pressroom/03facts/teenbirth.htm

Fact 5:
The trend has not reversed since then, according to the CDC’s 2004 numbers.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchswww/products/pubs/pubd/hestats/prelim_births/prelim_births04.htm

 

The statistics relating children of single mothers to increased risks are staggering. Everything from homosexuality to poor school perfomance to chronic unemployment to murder to suicide to drug use to depression exponentially increase.

Yes, but you are forgetting one other important element. These risks are not increased by single parent households alone. These risks are greater when the single parent household is low income, and when comparing single mother households below the poverty line there is not a significant difference between black and white.

http://www.census.gov/prod/2003pubs/p20-541.pdf

Besides, the black community does NOT have the highest rate of homosexuality in the US, that would be the white community. Not that it matters, since we are discussing black culture. If you want to look at crime. The African American population is approximately 34,658,190 people. The African American prison population, (nationwide), male and female included, in 2003, was 489,300. Therefore, the vast majority of African Americans are law abiding citizens. Let's look at some data for 2003 taken from the FBI Uniform Crime Report- Offenses Reported, 2003. How many murders do you think there were in 2003? There were 16,503, or approximately 5.7/100,000 US inhabitants. This number has nothing to do with prosecution either.

Let's look at murder offenders...

*total white offenders- 5,132
*total black offenders- 5,729
*total other offenders- 308
*total unknown offenders- 4,874

murder victims....

*total white victims- 6,193
*total black victims- 6,887
*total other victims- 408
*total unknown victims- 200

It is my experience that this is a product of the individual and their sub-culture within the black community. There is a dichotomy between those who have bought into the notion that society owes them something and those who accept that they must pull themselves up by their own bootstraps…

Again, I must say that I doubt you realize just how diverse the black community actually is. Her are some numbers for you to objectively contemplate. The first set of numbers are from 1991, before PWORA, The Welfare Reform Act, took effect.

1. The black population at the time was roughly 31.4 million people

2. The average family stayed on welfare for a period of roughly 22 months. Only 20% of families stayed on welfare for more than five years. (This is now a mute point because welfare benefits are limited to five years period) Please Note: This 20% also consisted of children and those with disabilities who are physical unable to work, such as the handicapped. While their were some who stayed on to stay on the majority did not.

3. The average payment for a family of three was $388/month or $4,656/year. (less than half of the $10,860 poverty level)

4. In 1991 welfare accounted for less than one percent of the US federal outlays.

5. Okay here are some racial breakdowns. please keep in mind that Hispanic is NOT considered a race, but ethnicity and on the census, (and any true academic research), they also choose a race (i.e. white or black or other). Approximately 39% of those receiving welfare were black, 38% non-Hispanic white, 3% Asian, and 17% were Hispanic-white. In a strict racial breakdown, the majority of welfare recipients are white.

6.African American made up only 29% of the entire American poor

What is interesting to note is that:

1.65% of poor Americans shown on television news at the time were black

2.62% of poor Americans shown in newsmagazines at the time were black.

These last two facts were taken from the research of Dr. Martin Gilens, who is an associate prof. of poly sci., and a fellow at the Institution for Social and Policy Studies at Yale.

The other facts were taken directly from the US Dept. of Health and Human Services, Characteristics and Financial Circumstances of AFDC Recipients: Fiscal Year 1991

Okay now here are some more recent numbers.

1.Did you know that in 2001 the poverty levels for African Americans was at a historic low of 22.7%. Mind you this is 22.7% of 32.9 million people living at or below the poverty line. During this same time the poverty levels of non-Hispanic white Americans rose from .4% to 7.8%.

2. Of the 7.8% of whites 63.1% received some sort of means tested assistance. 53.9% received reduced school lunches, 19% received cash assistance, 29% received food stamps, and 48.2% were on Medicaid.

3.Of the 22.7% of blacks 80.8% received some type of means based assistance. 74.9% received reduced school lunches, 33.4 received cash assistance, 47.2% received food stamps, and 65.2% were on Medicaid.

Please note: These numbers are percentages of percentages. (i.e. 47.2% of the 22.7% of the 32.9 million received food stamps)

These are taken directly from the Bureau of Labor Statistics and the Bureau of the Census

Let’s look at employment/unemployment stats now.

EMPLOYMENT STATISTICS 2004-US DEPT. OF LABOR

In 2004, according to the US Dept. Bureau of Labor Statistics, 26.5%, of working African Americans 16 and over, worked in management, professional, and related occupations. 23.8% worked in the service occupations. 26.3% worked in sales and office occupation. 6.8% worked in natural resource, construction, or maintenance occupations, and 16.7% worked in production, transportation, and material moving occupations. These numbers are not drastically different from the breakdown of the non-Hispanic white. which were 35.6%, 15.2%, 25.5%, 11.2%, and 12.4% respectively.

Just so the percentages can be put into perspective. There were 14,909,000 total African Americans 16 and over. There were 115,239,000 non-Hispanic whites 16 and over.
Please remember that the total number of African Americans will in fact be lower, because they are 12.4% of the population.

UNEMPLOYMENT STATISTICS- US DEPARTMENT OF LABOR

1. African Americans (there were approximately 1,729,000 unemployed African American)- 47.9% were job losers and persons who completed temp jobs. Of that 47.9%, 7.5% were on temp layoff and 40.4 were not. 8.2% were job leavers. 34.1% were reenterents. 9.8% were new enterents.

2. Non-Hispanic whites (there were approximately 5,847,000 unemployed)- 53.1% were job losers and persons who completed temp jobs. Of that 14.0% were on temp layoff and 39.1% were not. 11.2% were job leavers. 28% were reenterents. 7.7% were new enterents.

NOTE: all figures are taken from the population survey.

Some more food for thought. Did you even know that there are more African American accountants than African American professional athletes. The more and more you post, the more and more it seems that you are basing your knowledge of “black” culture on stereotypes. You will not define black culture. You are reverting to statistics without examining or acknowledging all of the facts. Finally, you cannot give any distinctive influences in black culture that are not also prevalent in all other American racial cultures.

 

Many black comedians egrandize sex and black male machismo as do entertainers in predominately black music.

Umm, so do white and Latino comedians. If you do not believe me, turn on Comedy Central at night some time. I have also previously mentioned that the hip-hop/rap culture is not the epitome of black culture, and is often criticized by the black community. A couple of weeks ago C-SPAN showed a variety of African American groups proposing to Congress to strengthen radio guidelines and penalties, due to the negative influence of the hip-hop/rap community. With that being said, hip-hop/rap is no worse than the sex and violence in rock, alternative rock, and punk. These music genres are not considered the epitome of white culture. Why is hip-hop the epitome of black culture in your eyes? BTW, not all hip-hop/rap is bad. The Roots, Common, India Arie(sp?), and Mos Def are fairly benign, and deal with a lot of social ills.

There are elements in the black community that help shape the culture that encourage loose sex, violence, gangs, etc.

Yes, and those are present in all of society, not just black culture. Gangs did not originate with African Americans. Did you even know that the largest gang in CA is the Latino gang Maravilla, which has approximately 10,000 members? Other Latino gangs include El Hazard Grande and White Fence. What about the Irish gangs popular in the 60’s, in the Boston area? Surely they were not influenced by black culture, but more likely the shady elements prevalent in all human nature. We can even go back further, to the 1900’s and the infamous Chicago juvenile Formby gang. What exactly do they have to do with an overall distinctive “black” culture.

What part of black culture do the countless youth centers, churches, organizations, people, etc., who address and combat the problems in the black community, play? You are so quick to talk about the negative influences in black culture. There is something larger than a supposed black culture at work, and many are addressing it head on. To blame the problems in the black community on an ill-defined culture is not being honest about the situation. Many factors are involved in these problems and in no way shape or form does it boil down to just an overall black culture, especially when the majority of the black community does not even subscribe to this culture you present.

The "overall black culture" includes these elements

No, only a few sub-sets of black culture include these elements. Just as sub-sets of white, or other, racial cultures contain these elements.

When they make a clean break from the failed social gospel that the civil rights movement became after the early 60's and from a Democratic party that openly supports abortion and sexual deviancy as a "civil rights" issue and the idea that arbitrary wealth re-distribution is "charity"- good for the recipient...

When they openly and publicly repudiate people like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton for their opportunism and manipulation for profit of black people... Condemn rap and hip-hop genres that promote wickedness rather than excusing them as "black expression"... When they publicly demand that black athletes that so many young people of all races look up to epitomize high morals (a la AC Green and Reggie White)…

Basically you mean when they support the Republican agenda, right? Either way black churches do not preach an entitlement attitude, and many are working with their members to teach financial freedom. As far as athletes are concerned and music are concerned, many churches do criticize them. BTW, black athletes are not the only ones with questionable moral character. Let’s not forget that fact.

As far as Jackson is concerned, the Rainbow/PUSH Coalition does a lot for the black/minority community and it is not about entitlement. You have been watching too much FOX News. I don’t necessarily support Jackson politically, but the RPC programs speak for themselves.

RPC Program One- 1000 Churches Connected

*mission- One Thousand Churches Connected is an initiative of the Rainbow/PUSH Coalition designed to bring the message of economic responsibility to families through churches across the country.
Based on MLK's Freedom Symphony, this program is based on the 4th movement-equal economic opportunity and shared economic security.

*goals- Through partnerships with Freddie Mac, Citigroup, Intuit, Equifax, The New York Stock Exchange, the National Association of Investors Corporation and others, we have developed the most comprehensive curriculum and training program available today. In the Bible, there are over 2,350 references to financial stewardship. Financial stewardship is the single most talked about topic in the Bible; however, we have not embraced it in our culture which has caused many of us to remain in financial bondage.

Specific Goals
*Debt Elimination based on Rm. 13:8
*Responsible Credit Management- Ps. 37:21
*Homeownership rather than renting- Pv.19:14
*Investment- Mt. 25:14-30
*Asset Protection- 2 Kings 20:1
*Technology- Pv. 18:15

RPC Program Two- HIV/AIDS Initiative

*mission- The PUSH For Life HIV/AIDS (PFL) Initiative began in March 2000. The program arose out of a need for leadership from the Civil Rights Community around HIV/AIDS in the African American and Latino community. Funded by Bristol-Myers Squibb Company, the program is housed out of the National Office in Chicago, Illinois.

*goals/iniatives

1. Developing a Political Voice to help drive national policy through increased funding for the Ryan White Care Act, which provides states with funds to improve access to drug therapies and improved quality of care for HIV/AIDS patients

2. Establishing an Advocacy Presence that draws the attention to the plight faced by America's underserved communities through various venues (i.e., National Town Hall meetings, public speaking and legislative activities)

3. Creating a Public Awareness Campaign designed to raise awareness regarding education, prevention, care and treatment
4. Mobilizing a Faith-Based Minister's Awareness and Testing Campaign geared toward reducing stigma and building outreach capacity among leaders of the faith community

5. Connecting the Disconnected: International Adopt an Orphanage Program intended to link African American churches with orphanages in South Africa.

RPC Program Three- International Trade Bureau

*mission- We advocate on behalf of our members to gain access to corporate entities, make referrals to our Trading Partners in the public and private sector and encourage and arrange vertical trade among our members.

RPC Program Four- Prison Outpost

*mission- The ultimate goal of this ministry is to eliminate the needs for prisons; provide information and programs to prisoners and to the larger community; finally, to be the spiritual voice for the "down trodden and the unloved".

*services-

1. Weekly visits to prisons and jails to conduct worship services

2. Private and small groups consulting with inmates and community people

3. Developing and participating in special programs within the IDOC

4. Community forums

5. Influence Legislature to have a positive impact on The Dept. Of Corrections.

6. Art and Creative Writing classes & Workshops behind the "WALLS"

7. Clothing and Reading material drives for the unfortunate

8. Conduct Workshops on Prisoner Awareness; prison volunteers

In this case, "black culture" was shaped by oppression. Problem is that even today some want to defend it as being "black" rather than throwing off a continuing vestige of oppression.

I am not going to reply, except to say, please read some of the authors I previously mentioned. I believe you will be surprised at what you find.

 

I think that most people recognize the term "black culture"; but, there are those who cannot distinguish a remark about "black culture" from one about blacks.

An anecdotal example here locally: We have six blacks in town (but many other minorities). One of those is an exeuctive at the bank. However, the NAACP sent in a young black man from out of town who looked like a thug. His pants were haning halfway down his rear end, his hat was at an angle, he had a pick sticking out of his hair... Basically, a perfect representative of "black culture". He applied for a job at the bank and when he was denied, the NAACP filed a racial discrimination suit. He represented "black culture", but the NAACP said it was racial. (The bank was protected since they were overrepresented by minorities.)

Does "black culture" represent all blacks? Certainly not! Perhaps not even a majority. But, they are a very visible and sizable group, and that is the group that most people (including many other blacks) are opposed to. However, when you oppose that, you are instantly labelled a "racist". You can oppose the same behavior in a white person, and you're OK, though. </font>[/QUOTE]First, I don't believe ScottJ is attacking black Americans. My contention is with his definition of an "overall black culture", which you yourself say the majority do not subscribe to. I am not denying the problems within the community, and I think we all agree they are holding back some black Americans. The problem goes beyond some perceived "black culture", though. This is the point I am trying to make.

Secondly, I am interested in the NAACP case you brought up. Within the past few weeks I have begun some research on the NAACP. I have a compiled list of all their cases from the past five years. I looked for this case, or something similar, but could not find anything. If you could please post some more details, or pm me, if you like. My research has just begun, so it is quite possible that I just overlooked it.

 

I think that most people recognize the term "black culture"; but, there are those who cannot distinguish a remark about "black culture" from one about blacks.

An anecdotal example here locally: We have six blacks in town (but many other minorities). One of those is an exeuctive at the bank. However, the NAACP sent in a young black man from out of town who looked like a thug. His pants were haning halfway down his rear end, his hat was at an angle, he had a pick sticking out of his hair... Basically, a perfect representative of "black culture". He applied for a job at the bank and when he was denied, the NAACP filed a racial discrimination suit. He represented "black culture", but the NAACP said it was racial. (The bank was protected since they were overrepresented by minorities.)

Does "black culture" represent all blacks? Certainly not! Perhaps not even a majority. But, they are a very visible and sizable group, and that is the group that most people (including many other blacks) are opposed to. However, when you oppose that, you are instantly labelled a "racist". You can oppose the same behavior in a white person, and you're OK, though. </font>[/QUOTE]I have to agree on this. I'm not a racist because I condemn sexual promiscuity. Thats the Bible! And also, living in Milwaukee which has a high population of blacks, there is more violence than in white communities. It's common knowledge that where there is a high "african american" population that the crime rate is above average. Why? Because the african american community has been taught for so long that they are below the white population, and therefore they become a stat. And they are not being taught this by white people, but by their own leaders such as Sharpton, and Jackson. I condemn these same things in the white community, but I have to wonder why we have so much promiscuity,drugs,gangs,violence in these african american communities. And it thrives so well.

James

 

Why is illegitimacy and promiscuity more prevalent in the black community Filmproducer? Why do more young black men go to jail justly than go to college? Why do social ills that you rightly say exist in all races effect blacks disproportionately?

I choose to believe that it is not something inherent to the black race itself... but something environmental, cultural.

 

Yes I am aware that there are people working hard against these problems.

To deny that cultural influences are not a major factor and that the paradigm widely accepted amongst blacks in America concerning sex is fundamentally in need of change is not being honest about the situation.

Look at Jackson himself. What a hypocrite... He blames whites for problems in the black community and counsels Clinton about Monica while he is buying off a mistress.

The bottom line is that premarital sex in the black community results in nearly 70% of black babies being born to a single mother. The single common factor in a whole host of social ills from poverty to drug abuse is the absence of the father.

Why FP? If it were poverty then how does that make people more promiscuous? If it is education, why has the problem become 3 times worse during the same period when educational opportunities, programs, and dollars toward black children have increased many times over?

Last time I checked... 70% constitutes a majority.

Basically you mean when they support the Republican agenda, right?[/quote][/qb] No. Not necessarily. At the same time, the fact that 90% of blacks vote for a single party and few can give you a reason better than the one used by my grandfather. Blacks say the Dems stand for the black man... my grandfather said it was for the working man... neither was/is right.

Many blacks are pro-life... Dems aren't. Many blacks are for a tough criminal justice system... the liberals in the judiciary are mostly Dem appointments. Many blacks support a strong military... politicians who "loath" the military tend to find a home in the Democratic party if they belong to either. Many blacks support open and public worship... those opposing freedom of religious expression are found in the liberal majority of the Dem party...

Issue after issue you find many if not most blacks more conservative than the Democratic party... yet for some reason any black that proclaims themselves a conservative or is a Republican is called an Uncle Tom or sell out? Whose voices are more constructive on the needs of the black community than Sowell, Williams, Parker, etc?

If I am to believe that the black community is not suffering from being "black"... then we need to see a voting preference breakdown that more accurately reflects the individual political opinions of the people.... or even better, we need to see these people who are working to solve these problems that you mentioned stand up and tell the Democratic party that they cannot count on support unless they show more respect to their values and opinions. That would make our country decidedly more conservative.

Without the votes of conservative blacks... liberals could not sustain any measure of power.

Jesse Jackson, whose organization you glorifed, does. He plays that "blame whitey" card every time he doesn't get his way. The contributions he gets from businesses fall just short of extortions sometimes.

He doesn't even act like someone interested in real healing between the races... and I suspect he isn't since his racket has made him very wealthy and powerful.

Why aren't those voices heard? Why aren't those voices changing these athletes before they sign their Nike deal?

Who are the white equivalents of Walt Frazier, Scottie Pippen, Mike Vick, or Kobe Bryant in the world of athletics? I am not claiming that all or even most white athletes are moral... but the sports media is probably the most forgiving of those kinds of indiscretions of any "beat". It almost has to come from a non-sports journalist to make the news... and it has to be a pretty obvious infraction at that.

Really? When did their position change? When did they stop demanding more federal social programs? When did they stop playing class and race warfare?

Actually my opinions of Jackson and Sharpton come from their own mouths when I can actually stomach to listen to them... I am old enough to remember Jesse Jackson the presidential candidate... long before FoxNews.

To the extent that RPC or any other organization privately addresses social ills they deserve credit.

OTOH, I am theologically opposed to the social gospel so... if the goal is social reform rather than the spread of the gospel... it is vanity.

Where is the gospel in this?

The Bible's teachings while they may be beneficial to anyone are directed to the believer... are there accompanying efforts to see folks accept Christ as their Lord and Savior?

For whose benefit and glory? I see alot about man and materialism here... but what about Jesus? If you can teach people to live successfully without Christ... What have you really done for them?

The "need" is for people with these dread diseases to here the gospel before it is eternally too late. Rather than going through paragraph by paragraph... I will just repeat that the good Reverend has a grand program... without the salvation of souls as the #1 priority.

 

Actually I have 30+ years of working closely with and being interested in blacks and other races. I also have statistics that affirm what I have learned and been directly told by black people.

All you have cited so far are the opinionaed excuses of a minority of egg heads... that even themselves haven't directly contradicted what I have said.

In that particular case consider them interchangeable... but why are you concerned with semantics? Why not just answer the questions and issues directly?

You haven't cited any facts. You have cited opinions and anecdotes... none of which have refuted my assertion.

Sure. But why is it causing more problems for blacks than whites? I mentioned the sexual revolution and its impact on national mores already.

Two races can be exposed to the same disease and one have 70% fatalities while the other only had 20%... and the question will be "Why?" The second question is "Can the resistance be transferred?"

Show me the statistics. I specifically doubt that this is true.

I hope I am not right... I think you are on the verge of blaming other people for the self-destructive immoral choices of the "socioeconomically" disadvantaged.

Of course to make it stick, you would have to go back and prove that case against other poor groups. Did we see this problem develop to a comparable degree in the Great Depression for instance. Blacks and whites were both poorer and less educated than the group you cite... yet somehow they sustained their morality and even found it advantageous.

So how does this citation of pragmatism contradict my assertion that it is a culturally effected decision? It doesn't.

Relative. The drop was something like 70% to 68%. There is no pattern suggesting anything other than "noise" in the statistical data yet. Hopefully there will be... but not based on that citation.

Relevance? Teen birth rates are not the same as illegitimacy rates.

Further, during the same period of time, we went from religious blacks responding to religious white challenges about supporting Dems in spite of abortion saying that black people don't kill their children to recent comparisons of black abortion rates to genocide.

Trading one social ill for another really isn't the answer... and I don't think anyone is helped by making young poor black mothers callous.

 

No. I am not forgetting that- it is central to my point. The effect regardless of race is the same... but the frequency among blacks is much higher. Why?

Why are you citing statistics that support my conclusion? I have not argued against the direct association between poverty and single parenthood. I have argued that blacks experience it more frequently. Again, Why?

I read recently that there is a suspicion that homosexuality is very under reported amongst black men. I will see if I can find the article.

Gotta go but will get to the rest later.

 

I have only a few things to point and then I am done on this thread because this is getting pointless. We are never going to agree, regardless of what either us have to say.

I hope I am not right... I think you are on the verge of blaming other people for the self-destructive immoral choices of the "socioeconomically" disadvantaged.

No, actually you are WAY off base. The fault lies with no one but themselves. I was headed more in the direction of ample opportunity. Less supervision equals greater temptation and more opportunity. I would have thought that was obvious.

Why are you citing statistics that support my conclusion? I have not argued against the direct association between poverty and single parenthood. I have argued that blacks experience it more frequently. Again, Why?

Actually I wasn't. I never denied that black Americans have a higher percentage of single mothers relative to their overall population. The statistics show that white and black single mother households are on the same playing level, (i.e., the majority are poor).

As far as the other statistics are concerned, you obviously missed the point, so I will break them down.

1. Black Americans are not dependent on the welfare system. Yes, poor blacks are more likely than their white counterparts to use the system, but the majority of all blacks are not on the system.

*Approximately 7.5 million black Americans in 2001 were living at or below the poverty line. (22.7% of the 32.9 million total people)

*Of these 7.5 million 80.8% received some sort of means based assistance, or approximately 6.1 million people. This includes any type of assistance. The numbers vary for specific programs. For, example only approximately 2.5 million received cash assistance.

*The African American population is approximately 34,658,190 people. Therefore, the vast majority of black Americans are not on welfare.

2. Where are you getting your statistics about black men and the prison population?

There are a disproportionate amount of black males in prison, but this quote is very misleading and inaccurate, I might add.

*1991
136,000 black males aged 18-24 were in prison
378,000 black males aged 18-24 were in college

*2003
112,500 black males aged 18-24 were in prison
804,000 black males aged 17+ were in college

Clearly the numbers can be skewed if you took the total black prison population and compared them to the black male college population. Realistically, how many college students are over 30?

Just as with welfare, the vast majority of black Americans are law abiding citizens. BTW, when did anyone, in this thread, claim that those black men in prison were unjustly put there?

but the frequency among blacks is much higher. Why?

Because black Americans have a higher incidence of poverty. (22.7%, black, in 2001 compared to 7.8%, white) Poverty, however, is not a symptom of culture. You are arguing that it is an overall black culture, not poverty, remember?

Really? When did their position change? When did they stop demanding more federal social programs? When did they stop playing class and race warfare?

OK, Jackson is a political figure, the PROGRAMS of the RPC are not. Regardless of any political stance of Jackson, the programs I listed help those in the community. Take the 1000 Churches Connected, for example. You may not agree with how they are doing it, but it is not entitlement when they are teaching fiscal responsibility.

It would be prudent to learn to separate a social program, (helps community), from social welfare programs, (financial assistance and the like).

Relative. The drop was something like 70% to 68%. There is no pattern suggesting anything other than "noise" in the statistical data yet. Hopefully there will be... but not based on that citation.

The citation once again....

"Births: Final Data for 2002," from CDC’s National Center for Health Statistics shows that the teen birth rate declined by 30 percent over the past decade to a historic low and that the rate for black teens was down by more than 40 percent. For young black teens (15 to 17 years) the results were even more striking—the rate was cut in half since 1991.

Actually I have 30+ years of working closely with and being interested in blacks and other races. I also have statistics that affirm what I have learned and been directly told by black people.

That's debatable because you cannot even correctly quote how black Americans define the black experience in America. Not to mention the fact you have only given one statistic example, but completely ignore the ones I gave, which combat the common stereotypes of black Americans. For the final time, it is not an "Overall black culture" when the majority do not claim this culture. No one is denying the problems within the community, but it does not stem from an overall culture, a subset maybe, but not overall. I challenge you to really learn about the black community. Try reading black authors, volunteering in an urban youth center, something, anything, because you are pinning some supposed culture on a MAJORITY of people that are not a part of it. (Regardless of how many supposed black people you actually know, or have spoken to.)

 

One final thought, I did not address. You asked for equivalents to some criminal black athletes. How about GreenBay's Mark Chmura, accused of sexual battery of a 14 year old baby-sitter, and contributing to underage drinking. there is always the Cowboys pot smoking Mark Stepnoski, he seems to be of high moral character. The NHL's Avalanche goalie Patrick Roy has been charged with domestic abuse. Baseball player, Roger Clemens seems to have an anger management problem, as evidenced at his actions against Piazza in 2000. Babe Ruth was a drunk womanizer. I am sure I could find more if I looked it up.

 

No. I simply either disagree with your interpretation or else don't know what points you are trying to make. Each time you actually make a point... it is something that points back to a cultural influence.

Never said they were.

And by the current definition of what it means to be impoverished in the US, almost everyone would have been in poverty 30 years ago.

The average person living under the US poverty line has not gone without food in the past year, does not lack for clothes, owns a car, owns a home, owns a refrigerator... a microwave, more than one tv with cable, and can access necessary health care.

This is hardly an oppressed life style that "forces" someone to become immoral or delinquent.

Never said they were.

Jesse Jackson. Thanks for the correction. I should have known better than to trust anything that comes out of his mouth.

Absolutely.... so why is the rate of promiscuity, abortion, and illegitimate birth higher among blacks?

If it has nothing to do with their culture and we agree that it isn't economic oppression since most aren't on welfare and it isn't crime since most are law abiding... then what is it?

No one did. The argument has been made though.

Poverty is not a cause. Poverty is a result. Not all of the causes for black poverty were in any way the fault of black people. They were freed without property or education. They had no inherited wealth. This alone takes much to overcome.

OTOH, culture does come into play. People who immigrate to the US from other nations and cultures more often than not see nothing but opportunity. How many cases are there of people who come here with nothing and succeed? I know a Chinese man personally who sacrificed and struggled but now owns 4 successful restaurants. He didn't start with anything except his own values and talent.

Not only that, numerous black people have become very successful. So why is it that so many are subject to these social ills?

And I said it is commendable as far as it goes.

Please....

You and I have had what I think is a fruitful discussion. There is no need to be condescending now.

There is a difference between the birth rate and illegitimacy rates. Hopefully at some point they will translate... but we haven't seen it yet.

Yes it is... and that isn't an indictment of all black people any more than it is an indictment of each individual American when we say that American culture is sexually decadent. That doesn't mean that all Americans like or subscribe to the attitude... but it does accurately characterize our nation... and even those of us who don't approve have a connection to it in one form or another... and likely have some guilt.

I challenge you not to make assumptions.

I have done what I believe is better than those things. I have coached black kids. I have had black friends. I have worked with black people... not just for a few hours a week but 40+ hours a week for years.

There are some pervasive attitudes that indicate poor attitudes towards sexuality.

So according to you I simply haven't known the "right" black people or read the "right" authors? The black people I have known have by and large been salt of the earth type people. I value their opinions and the effect they have had on me. Many of the racist preconceptions I learned growing up were disproved by direct interaction and earned respect. But my eyes aren't closed to the differences in culture... nor their impact... nor the statistics that support the correlation.

 

You and I have had what I think is a fruitful discussion. There is no need to be condescending now.

Sorry, it was not meant to be condescending. It was based entirely on this comment, "Really? When did their position change? When did they stop demanding more federal social programs? When did they stop playing class and race warfare?".

I also believe the discussion was fruitful. It is just time consuming to reply to.

So according to you I simply haven't known the "right" black people or read the "right" authors? The black people I have known have by and large been salt of the earth type people. I value their opinions and the effect they have had on me. Many of the racist preconceptions I learned growing up were disproved by direct interaction and earned respect. But my eyes aren't closed to the differences in culture... nor their impact... nor the statistics that support the correlation.

Sorry, I think you misunderstood me again. I am not claiming anything about the black people you know. It was based entirely on my belief that it is not an overall black culture. I agree some subsets of black culture are morally inept, but not the overall black culture. I'm sorry that I assumed you have not worked with black youth. I have also worked with inner city black youth, as well as other areas in the black community and have come to a different conclusion than you. My comment about black authors was based on the previous discussion of how the black experience is defined. These are things I have thought long and hard about, not that you haven't. My husband is black, and my children are considered black. Raising them with the positive influences in black culture is important to me, just as raising them with the positive influences of white culture is also important.