Free Grace theology?

oh ok,

Its been an issue in my church for several years now, and so I tend to notice it.

The problem I have with FG theology is their man-centered and faulty view of sanctification. I admire their tenacity in keeping justification and sanctification distinct, but some FG'ers state that sanctification is "wholly unpredictable" as it is dependent on man.

Sanctification is not wholly unpredictable. God is the one who justifies, and God is the one who sanctifies.

You have to be able to keep sanctification and sanctification separate, though.

Hebrews 10:10
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

We are sanctified by Jesus' death on the cross and His blood, not by our works. This sanctification happened once. But once we are sanctified, we need to be sanctified.

2 Timothy 2:21
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honor, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

There is a practical sanctification that is separate from the positional sanctification that we presently have through faith in Christ Jesus. The positional is Christ alone, nothing can be added to or taken away from that perfect work. Once you have been sanctified, then you can begin to be sanctified practically through the washing of water by the word. But you cannot undo what Christ has done on the cross any more than you could do it yourself without Him.

It seems to me, from talking and watching my brother n law, that people who feel a pressure that is so great to live a godly life and quite because they can't do it, that they may be doing it on their own. He complains about legalism in churchs but most of the time, when I question him further, its really not legalism but bible. He finds it hard to live and walk as a christian should. Thus he feels no pressure under this FG. So it makes me wonder is it the fact he has not the Holy Spirit helping him, so that he can't live or walk the christian walk. He then turns to a believe that says it doesn't matter? Or what? But he is very faithful to the CHURCH and memorizing their doctrine, but the rest of his life is not showing much fruit or spiritual growth. His thinking on most matters is really worldly. So you jsee how I think or wonder abvout this teaching.

Tim

I can't speak for anyone else, Tim, -- well, maybe my husband and son, too, as the three of us have talked a bit on this subject -- but what I have noticed (what WE have noticed) in our own lives is that we want to follow Jesus. We want to do what is right. And, what is more, the Holy Spirit within each of us makes that entirely possible. Not always in ways our human minds understand at first, but by paying attention to Him and not to our own ideas about what to do in this or that situation, we find that we have been 'used' far more mightily and with far better effect than if we had done anything on our own.

And it is a joy to live that way.

It seems to me that is what your brother-in-law might be missing -- the joy of life with Christ.

But yes, it is impossible to do it on our own, away from Him. That is a terrible burden. And that is precisely why Jesus said, "Come to me all ye that labor and are heavily burdened, and I will give you rest..." He takes the burden of living rightly and does it through us.

Helen I agree there are legalistic churches and they drive peopel to churches like FG I believe. On the other hand I have no doubt that there are people who go there who are christian. But the fact is HIS church teaches that there aftter a person is spiritually reborn, and have the Holy Spirit that their life will not change. I don't see that animal in the Bible.

Tim

Tim, may I ask then what is the point of the preaching at his church?

At ours a good portion of the preaching is about holy living, staying close to Jesus, having a real relationship with Him.

If your BIL is finding it hard to live right, than that would indicate to me that is trying on some level.
His church does not sound like any true Free Grace theology church to me. It sounds like they have a distorted view.

bapmon, good pt. I don't know the answer to that. HOwever I think he is following along so I will get with him and see what he says about that statement.
What is the difference would youi say in a baptist church and a FG church? If there is any. Maybe he is in some off the wall group.

I see at least three issues that are addressed in this discussion. Here are my thoughts on the three...

SALVATION/GRACE/WORKS -
A person is saved on the basis of the shed blood of Jesus Christ and his faith in the personal application of that Sacrifice. Although works will follow a genuine conversion experience, works have nothing to do with a person's position and standing before God. Justification is apart from works and nothing that a person could ever do could cause him to be worthy of the matchless grace demonstrated at Calvary. Salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. To experience the application of this grace a person must trust Christ as his personal Savior. A good way to do so is to call upon the Lord in what has been commonly termed the "sinner's prayer"; "Lord, be merciful to me a sinner...". The saved are eternally secure in Christ on the basis of their one time act of faith in the full sufficiency of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus as payment for their sin and complete provision for imputed righteousness. This does not give them a license to live any way they wish, but it does make their salvation based on the death of Christ rather than their own merit. Believers who sin will be chastened by the Lord. If a person lives in habitual sin and experiences no chastening by the Lord, it may be a good indication that they have never been saved.

LORDSHIP SALVATION -
"Lordship salvation" is the teaching that a person must accept Christ as Lord and Master of all areas of their life in order to receive salvation. Lordship salvation insists that a person who does not initially submit to the Lordship of Jesus has not made a personal commitment to the Lord and is therefore not converted. It is our position that while Scripture clearly calls upon believers to submit to the Lordship of Jesus Christ in their lives as a matter of personal surrender and full service to Him, unbelievers are incapable of understanding or making such a commitment. Their sole responsibility before God is to acknowledge their sinfulness and their total inability to approach God except on the basis of the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ and to trust His death as sufficient to provide eternal salvation. Paul's exhortation to the believers in Rome that they present themselves as "living sacrifice(s)... not conformed to this world... but transformed by the renewing of (their) mind" (Rom 12:1-2) clearly indicates that these brethren had not yet fully submitted to the Lordship of Christ. Salvation is not a situation where we offer "all that we are for all that Christ is" or where we fully surrender our will to the will of Christ. Salvation is a free gift that is accepted by faith. We have nothing to offer God. God is not somehow completed by our surrender. God calls believers to submit to Him and to live a life that is pleasing to Him, but this is not a condition for salvation, it is a condition for discipleship and reasonable service.

REPENTANCE -
Repentance, as a condition for salvation, is not a turning from sin or a grief and sorrow over sin. These elements are present in passages that speak of a believer repenting, but never present in passages which speak of an unbeliever repenting and trusting Christ. The word that is always used in passages relating to saving faith means to change the mind. Unbelievers must change their mind and recognize that they are sinners and totally without the capacity to do anything to save themselves. They must turn from reliance on self-effort and fully trust in the sufficiency of the death of Jesus on the cross. They could not turn from sin, it is both within and without. Some people are joyful at learning of God's grace in providing salvation. If repentance for salvation required an overwhelming sorrow over sin, one would have to say that a person who was focused on the grace and mercy of God at the moment of salvation was therefore not saved. Some may experience a deep conviction of sin, but this is not what saves them. Salvation comes as a result of their faith in the total sufficiency of Christ's death on the cross.

Timtoolman, sorry I missed this thread yesterday.

rjprince, that was beautiful! Thank you for your post!

I'd not heard of the term "free grace theology" until I came to this website....and then only recently within the last few days. I think your question as to what the difference is between Baptists and Free Grace, I think that would be like asking what the difference is between Baptist and Calvinist. Calvinism is not a denominational term, it is a philosophical term meant to describe someone's specific beliefs. I don't know of any churches that call themselves "Free Grace Churches." Do you know what I mean?

So from my point of view, there are some Baptist churches that are calvinistic in view, some are arminian in view, and then there is a whole group that falls somewhere in between. Ive never agreed wholly with the first two, so I guess you'd call me more of a "free gracer".

All this to say, I don't think there IS any difference between right free grace theology and Bapstist teaching. This is what I believe IS Baptistic teaching.

Bapmom,

Thanks. This is another issue that easily has been the object of hundreds of hours of study. I have read almost everything I could get my hands on re this/these issues since 1974, my first year of college. I know the statements were brief, but I tried to KISS, Keep It Sweet & Simple, not always an easy task. In fact most of the time it is easier to state truth in a manner that is above where most of us live than to get it down to where we can all get it, or most of us anyway...

I am here and willing to discuss all matters concerning Free Grace theology. I am intimately aware with the surrounding arguments, doctrines, and scriptures, as I have studied this for many years.

I think that you all have not given Free Grace theology a fair shake, and I believe that many of your assessments of it are based upon misrepresentations of its beliefs.

"Cheap grace" is a major pejorative based upon a misunderstanding of Free Grace theology.

It is not "cheap":

To Christ: it was incalculably costly. It cost Him His precious blood; His life.

To the sinner: it is absolutely free.

Throwing around pejoratives such as "cheap grace", "easy believism" and "no-lordship" propagates the same tired old mischaracterizations and straw-men.

If anyone would like to have a civil and substantive discussion concerning texts of Scripture that either:

1) seem to deny Free Grace theology
and/or
2) seem to support non-Free Grace theology

I am game.

I would just ask that we could do so without slinging mud.

The Word of God is offensive enough already, whereas we do not need to be.

Respectfully,

Antonio

CraigbyTheSea said:

Free grace theology, when taken to its logical conclusion, is a most pernicious and damnable doctrine

Click to expand...

This is a very volatile and explosive quote that proves nothing but barks alot. What follows, quoted from the Middletown website, are emotional pleas, half-truths, and misunderstandings concerning Free Grace theology.

Let us discuss the Scriptures themselves rather than plea to the emotions.

The Bible is where the bacon is.

Make an argument based upon passages in Scripture (not mere rapid fire of proof-texts, please).

Show where Free Grace theology is damnable and pernicious by comparing it to Scripture.

Antonio

Originally posted by Free Gracer:

CraigbyTheSea said:

Free grace theology, when taken to its logical conclusion, is a most pernicious and damnable doctrine

Click to expand...

This is a very volatile and explosive quote that proves nothing but barks alot. What follows, quoted from the Middletown website, are emotional pleas, half-truths, and misunderstandings concerning Free Grace theology.

Let us discuss the Scriptures themselves rather than plea to the emotions.

The Bible is where the bacon is.

Make an argument based upon passages in Scripture (not mere rapid fire of proof-texts, please).

Show where Free Grace theology is damnable and pernicious by comparing it to Scripture.

Antonio

Click to expand...

Antonio,

I, too, have studied free grace theology (Zane Hodges, etc., of the Grace Evangelical Society, falsely so-called) and the theological derivation of it. I stand by the words in my post. “Free grace theology, when taken to its logical conclusion, is a most pernicious and damnable doctrine.” Most fortunately, the vast majority of sane Baptists and other Christians see it for what it is and, as far as I know, you are the only member of this message board who adheres to that that theology, that is, unless you wish to extend free grace theology to the theology of Joey Faust. Joey has three or four followers on this message board, and they are all KJO fanatics who preach lunacy rather than truth.

"Cheap grace" is a major pejorative based upon a misunderstanding of Free Grace theology.

It is not "cheap":

To Christ: it was incalculably costly. It cost Him His precious blood; His life.

To the sinner: it is absolutely free.

Click to expand...

NO, IT IS NOT ABSOLUTELY FREE FOR ANYONE! Unless the believer in Christ dies with Him through faith, that believer’s faith in not effectual for his salvation.

Rom. 6:1. What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2. May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3. Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4. Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
5. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6. knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
7. for he who has died is freed from sin.
8. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9. knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.
10. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Matt. 16:25. "For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

Mark 8:35. "For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel's will save it.

Luke 9:24. "For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake, he is the one who will save it.

Luke 17:33. "Whoever seeks to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.

“Free Grace” theology is a lie from hell.

2Corinthians 5:17 also says, "Behold, if any man be in Christ he is a new creature, old things have passed away, behold, all things become new."

Amen, Craigbythesea----there is the "passing away" of the old (self) that brings in the new (salvation by grace through faith)

Bro. David

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> "Cheap grace" is a major pejorative based upon a misunderstanding of Free Grace theology.

It is not "cheap":

To Christ: it was incalculably costly. It cost Him His precious blood; His life.

To the sinner: it is absolutely free.

Click to expand...

NO, IT IS NOT ABSOLUTELY FREE FOR ANYONE! Unless the believer in Christ dies with Him through faith, that believer’s faith in not effectual for his salvation.

Rom. 6:1. What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2. May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3. Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4. Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
5. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6. knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
7. for he who has died is freed from sin.
8. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9. knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.
10. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Matt. 16:25. "For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

Mark 8:35. "For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel's will save it.

Luke 9:24. "For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake, he is the one who will save it.

Luke 17:33. "Whoever seeks to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.

“Free Grace” theology is a lie from hell.

</font>[/QUOTE]We believe exactly what you believe, excepting that we apply those warnings to entrance in the millennial kingdom, and you apply them to eternal salvation. Does it make you angry that God might save someone who wasn't living up to your standard?

Luke 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

James Newman wrote,

We believe exactly what you believe, excepting that we apply those warnings to entrance in the millennial kingdom, and you apply them to eternal salvation. Does it make you angry that God might save someone who wasn't living up to your standard?

Click to expand...

Your beliefs are NOTHING like mine! The concept of the millennial kingdom postdates the synoptic gospels and the Book of Romans by several years, making your interpretation of very many passages in the synoptic gospels and the Book of Romans an absolute impossibility. My beliefs are based solidly upon the Bible; Free Grace beliefs are based upon ludicrous nonsense, ignorance, distortions, and lies.

Indeed, Free Grace theology, i.e., the theology popularized in recent years by Zane Hodges that naughty Christians will spend a future, literal millennium in a suburb of heaven where there will be “weeping and gnashing of teeth,” is a spiritual disease that destroys the ability of the human mind to comprehend and reason. The version of James Newman is the even more seriously diseased version put forth by Joey Faust that disobedient Christians will spend a future, literal millennium in hell itself before spending the rest of eternity with Christ.

The victims of this disease have been deceived by the deceiver of the ages, and they have absolutely no scriptural foundation for their beliefs. When they read the Bible, they read into it their ludicrous nonsense, distortions, and lies that anyone with a healthy mind can immediately recognize for what they are.

Am I angry that God might save someone who wasn’t living up to my standards? I am angry that the precious blood of Jesus would be so severely mocked as to make it as useless as mosquito infested stagnant water. I am angry that the holiness and righteousness of God are so severely mocked as to make God no more holy or righteous than an old, decaying, Orphan Annie rag doll covered with mold in a dark, musty cellar.

I have already posted several Scriptures than prove that Free Grace theology is in direct conflict with the very Word of God. And, of course, I could easily post more than a hundred more. Free Grace theology not only cheapens grace, it denies the very substance and power of the grace of God.

I, too, have studied free grace theology (Zane Hodges, etc., of the Grace Evangelical Society, falsely so-called) and the theological derivation of it

Click to expand...

So you have read full books on Free Grace theology? Which ones have you read?

Most fortunately, the vast majority of sane Baptists and other Christians see it for what it is and, as far as I know, you are the only member of this message board who adheres to that that theology, that is, unless you wish to extend free grace theology to the theology of Joey Faust. Joey has three or four followers on this message board, and they are all KJO fanatics who preach lunacy rather than truth.

Click to expand...

Joey Faust is Free Grace. I do not agree with him in his Millennial Exclusion. But let's not throw around emotion here. Let us stick with the Bible. Let's turn your vitriole into a productive Scriptural discussion, if you can.

We need the bacon, not your ascriptions of heresy.

Antonio