Guilt

Craigbythesea · Sep 27, 2005

Helen wrote,

Nevertheless, arguing about Adam's sin and our supposed responsibility for it becomes a moot argument when you understand that ALL sin is atoned for by Christ. So we are 'guilty' of none of it if we are in Him.
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This is NOT a moot argument when one considers its application to babies, those who are intellectually challenged, and those who have not had the opportunity to have the gospel message clearly presented to them.

This is NOT a moot argument because Paul expressly argued the point from the Old Testament—and Paul ONLY does that when he is making a VERY significant theological point. We sinned in Adam and that sin was imputed to us by God. Please stick to the Bible and what the Bible says about this matter in Rom. 5:12-19. This passage EXPRESSLY teaches the imputation of Adam’s sin to all of his posterity. It says ABOLUTELY nothing about a “sin nature.”

Note to Helen,

I did NOT insult your character or your person in my posts that were edited by Blackbird. I used a play on words and a parody of some of your statements. Blackbird radically misunderstood my words. Personally, I hold you in very high regard as a Christian sister who is committed to defending God and His word in the context of your understanding of it. Never, absolutely never, have I meant to demean your character or your person.

Helen · Sep 27, 2005

I appreciate that, Craig. Thank you.

Are you implying, by the way, that my profoundly retarded 21 year old son is hellbound?

Weren't his sins, as well as mine, atoned for?

Craigbythesea · Sep 27, 2005

Helen wrote,

Originally posted by Helen:
I appreciate that, Craig. Thank you.

Are you implying, by the way, that my profoundly retarded 21 year old son is hellbound?

Weren't his sins, as well as mine, atoned for?
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NO! I am NOT implying that your son is hell-bound or bound for any other place than the arms of Jesus Himself! It is my personal conviction that your son’s sins were atoned for by the blood that Jesus shed for all of us. Paul teaches very clearly that your son sinned in Adam, as we all have. Paul also very clearly teaches that Jesus undid what Adam did in reference to your son.

Have no fear! Your son is very precious in the sight of God and the atonement of Christ was more than sufficient to cleanse him from all unrighteousness, including that of Adam.

Scott J · Sep 27, 2005

Originally posted by Helen:
Are you implying, by the way, that my profoundly retarded 21 year old son is hellbound?

Weren't his sins, as well as mine, atoned for?
Click to expand...

Actually, he is in far more danger if you are right and God does not regenerate sinners independent of their free will choice.

Helen · Sep 27, 2005

The law has never come into his life. Therefore sin is dead in him and has never had the power to kill him (separate him from God) spiritually. I am not saying sin is not there and I am not saying he is not a sinner. I am saying what Paul said in Romans 7, that without the law, sin is dead--and therefore does not have any power over him.

Keep in mind I am not denying he is a sinner. I am not denying he has a sin nature. I am denying that he has ever died spiritually, though. That doesn't make him any less in need of Christ as his Savior, however.

ituttut · Sep 28, 2005

Originally posted by Helen:
I have not denied that we all get a sin nature from Adam and Eve. That has been a major point I have tried to establish. What I have argued is that there is no way any of us are personally guilty of their sin, just as our children are not guilty of our sins.

Then I evidently misunderstood your stance in this matter Helen. I was trying to decipher the meaning in your statement “Nothing I ever did or could have done had any influence in the matter, and it is that which determines culpability” along with your second paragraph. I was left with the impression you felt it is not a matter of whether or not you could have influenced Eve if you had been there, but rather whether or not you would have tried to warn/stop her, and if you hadn’t you would be sharing in the guilt. I believe we are to reach others, and exhort some, but I don’t hold to being “capable of stopping” anyone from sinning. If that were in our power then it would be we carrying the burden of sin for others, instead of Jesus Christ.

In addition, I think you have a wrong view of Eve.

I view scripture as accurate – Genesis 3:5, ”…….. ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.”

Paul says clearly she was deceived. I have wondered if she was deceived because Satan, who was then Lucifer, was originally the guardian cherub of Eden (see Ez. 28:11 on -- hint, the King of Tyre was never in Eden!), and she had learned to trust him. Whatever, Eve's problem was that she trusted her own 'logic' when deceived and not God's Word. It was Adam through whom sin came into the world, and he was the one not deceived. He is the one who made the choice, not between Satan and God, but between his wife and God!

Agree that Paul as the head of the woman is the responsible party and was not deceived. He loved her that came from him more than he loved God, and was willing to die with her.

You could be right as for trust. If so, that was her downfall, for she put her trust in the evil one and not God. Her whole being desired the tree for to make her wise (vs.6).

Nevertheless, arguing about Adam's sin and our supposed responsibility for it becomes a moot argument when you understand that ALL sin is atoned for by Christ. So we are 'guilty' of none of it if we are in Him.
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Amen!

Helen · Sep 28, 2005

Thanks for helping me clarify myself! That is always appreciated. Yes, it is a matter of trying, not of doing, where warning another is concerned. We are told that if we know something is wrong but do not warn the person doing it, that we are at least partly responsible.

I have 75 tons of topsoil arriving imminently so I don't have time to look up that passage, but I'm hoping you know what I am talking about!

One note: Satan has never had to use any other temptation with men, has he?
Did God REALLY say...?
Think for yourself....then you will be like God...

That's all it has ever taken! How sad.

ituttut · Oct 1, 2005

Originally posted by Helen:
Thanks for helping me clarify myself! That is always appreciated. Yes, it is a matter of trying, not of doing, where warning another is concerned. We are told that if we know something is wrong but do not warn the person doing it, that we are at least partly responsible.

Yes, I may know to what you refer, but it differs from our warning someone. It is rather something that we do that causes one to sin. We ”Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine,” II Timothy 4:2. But we don’t take on another’s guilt . We always take on our “own guilt”, which the below will apply.

In I Corinthians 8 (below) we find we do need to be careful around the weak for they don’t understand the freedom and liberty they have In Christ Jesus. I believe these are the “babes” in Christ, but here I believe we need to make a distinction between standing up for the cause of Christ also, against those that “seem somewhat in power”, who should be strong, and not weak becoming a victim, not fully understanding.

Here is where we are to be careful, and you may not fully agree with my explanation. I Corinthians 8:9-13, ”But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak. 10. For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols; 11. And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? 12. But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ. 13. Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.”

We see a case in point above of the “mature” Christian with understanding, to be careful trying to recognize weak and uninformed Christians. Here we sin, and cause another to sin because of our action. We take full responsibility for our sin, but none for theirs, even though we were the cause. We are not capable of taking sin to ourselves, as was Jesus. This “weak one” in the Word doesn’t share in our sin, but in their own sin for they do something they believe to be sin (Romans 14:23). So we cannot be “partially responsible” for their sin for what they did is not sin to us. Our sin is in our freedom of everyday life of eating and drinking what we wish (Romans 14:21)and not holding it in check at certain times, and theirs in their bondage of do’s and don’ts of meats, drinks and other things of really no significance. These “weaker” ones usually perish in their work for their Lord, feeling remorse for their “sin”, not forgiving themselves of what they before had been forgiven. Jesus died for them just as He did for us.

But at times we are to stand, even if hard feelings could occur, and it can come about by our eating and drinking, and with whom we may be doing it with. Here again, you may not agree with me.

I believe to understand the following we must understand in the day of all the Apostles, there were two gospels. Here we see two “mature” ones, and others also, indicating we are to take a firm stand, and no sin will be committed by anyone. Only one in this setting is correct and has understanding of “both gospels” as he was taught them, not by man but by revelation of Christ Jesus (Galatians 1:11-12).

In Galatians 2:11 we find Paul upbraids Peter, and the others of the gospel of the circumcision, who has come to Gentile Christian territory. ”But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 12. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 13. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. 14. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? 15. We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16. Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.”

Was Peter included in Paul’s above in I Corinthians 8? By no means. Was Barnabas? By no means. Peter will have His own kingdom. The earthly Apostles are not as we in the Body of Christ. They have “their own kingdom” – ” And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; 30. That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel,” Luke 22:29-30. Barnabas was saved into the “kingdom at hand, and to come”, and was appointed to help Paul with the Christian gospel to the circumcision for Barnabas was of the Pentecostal gospel of Jesus Christ.

I have 75 tons of topsoil arriving imminently so I don't have time to look up that passage, but I'm hoping you know what I am talking about!

At the age of 70 I spread 116 tons of topsoil during spring and summer, shovel by shovel into my wheelbarrow. Helped divert water away from garden, and work shop. Hope you have some help.

One note: Satan has never had to use any other temptation with men, has he?
Did God REALLY say...?
Think for yourself....then you will be like God...

That's all it has ever taken! How sad.
Click to expand...

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Guilt

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