Featured Is carnal christianity biblically correct?

"DHK,.

.You once again are quite dishonest and should step down as a moderator for several reasons
Let's look again why you are to be rejected....

.

yes it does

of course not...no one here says it is by our works......only you lie and suggest we say that. When you bear false witness it is a sin....when you do it as a habit your soul is in danger.

Yes....I know you are a spiritual giant.....but read carefully what I did say...genius...Cautious

THOSE WHO DO NOT ENTER HEAVEN.........
Let me give you a hint......people who do not enter heaven are....UNSAVED

This statement is not about Believers who are saved by the active obedience of The Lord Jesus Christ......you cannot even read a post correctly.
It is about those rejected at the White Throne .
All through the gospels Jesus explained that those who do not believe will die
IN THEIR SINS......PLURAL.
Sin taints all their works which are rejected. The only works accepted are those Jesus did on behalf of His Elect.

THIS WAS ALREADY ANSWERED IN POST 262....YOU ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE.

.

Show where anyone posted otherwise.....not what you "think"they said, but what they said .

Jesus taught otherwise.....All sin will be punished. Romans 2 and mt25, and jn 8 say otherwise.

As we see...Icon does not deny this.....instead we see you violate the 9th
commandment.....you ask why??? because your conduct and posting is....

 

I think I need to butt in if you all don't mind.

The "ye" is used BOTH as in informal singular and formal plural. So is "you."

The NASB translation of 1 Corinthians 3:16:

16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
​

The question would then be, What does the Holy Spirit indwell? A building, a group, or a person?

A person is the correct answer. In every instance - even at Pentecost - the Holy Spirit indwells individuals, not groups. Can the Holy Spirit move and work in a group setting? Of Course, but that isn't the issue, is it?

Therefore, the "you" of 1 Corinthians 3:16 should be taken as the personal pronoun singular form rather than a general populace form.

 

Romans 2 does not teach that men loose salvation, because they sin. Rather, the believer who is unrepentant finds themselves in turmoil and tribulation just as the Jews did and the gentiles do.

The latter part of Matt 25 concerns the final judgment of people before God - it is not applicable to this time, but shows the sheep separated from the goats. There are no goats in heaven.

John 8 is Jesus handling the misconceptions of the religious righteous of that Day. They did not have a concept of the cross, nor of redemption through the shed blood of Christ. Rather, Christ is discussing using the concepts of that audience. It is not to be applied to believers in the same way as if Christ were talking to them as the audience.

There is NO DOUBT that sin will be punished - Paul states that is why some believers died early.

These are the distinguishing factors:

• Believers will sin - but conviction of the Holy Spirit drives them to grieve, confess, and accept the cleansing Christ brings.
• Unbelievers will sin - perhaps feel bad, maybe even have certain regrets, but have nothing for cleansing or forgiveness but what lays in the emotions.
• Believers will even "practice sin" because of some weakness of the flesh, or oppression of the enemy that overtakes them in a fault. But, we who are Spiritual are to draw that person back, and encourage, bring accountability and even restoration, all the while being careful that we ourselves do not fail.
• Unbelievers cannot help but practice sin, because they actually take pleasure in this world and the vileness of it. Should they not get enough vileness, they will purpose and plot even greater evil. Regret is apportioned upon how much one can get by with, and not upon the shame it brings.

Hope this helps.

 

Isn't there a basic principle in Scriptures that believers will work (James) and not just have faith?
That the works of righteousness, and fruits of the Spirit (love, joy, peace ...) are evidences of the faith - not replacement, but demonstrations of the Holy Spirit with in the believer?

I am reminded of temperament and character of Eric Liddell while in the prison camp compared to others who were supposed to be believers, but showed none or little of the display of the life of a believer.

For the readers who don't know the story - here is a kid's version

First hand account of the character of Eric Liddell can be found here.

 

Yes, but that is subsequent to salvation. It is part of the Christian life or sanctification. I wasn't speaking of sanctification, only salvation. There are no works involved in salvation, only faith. If we are saved by faith alone, as Jesus says in Mark 16, then we are also condemned by unbelief alone. The centrality of salvation is Christ--whether or not one believes in Him.

 

agedman,

.
Hello Agedman,
I do not believe God's salvation can be lost...or it would not be God's salvation.Jesus died a covenant death for His people,and seeks and saves All He came to save.

.Romans 2 does not deal with unrepentant believers....let's look;
2 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

in verse 5...it is clear that the unbeliever is in view.....hardness,impenitent,treasuring up wrath....this is unsaved religious persons.

now he says...

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Let me suggest to you what is taught here...
At the judgment perfection and perfectly sinless works are required.
Only Jesus and His Active obedience is accepted by The Father.
Jesus kept the law...[ten commandments perfectly}
That perfection is put to the account of the elect.

Unbelievers do not have God given saving faith in Jesus perfect work.
They have to be perfect without any sin on their own.....they cannot, so they go from the realm of death, to the second death.
All died in Adam, all sinned by experience, and God punishes all sin...in the sinner or the substitute.

The good works of a believer are already ordained of God as He works in us to will and do of His good pleasure. They are accepted as done unto God's glory.
The Good works of Christians do not contribute to salvation, but they do demonstrate we have been given saving faith.

these good works are described in vs 7:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life

The works of unsaved persons are described in vs 8:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

agreed...I posted on this in 262...

Jn 8...shows...unbelievers...die in their sins,,,plural

 

I agree. Which is really the issue of the goats and sheep last judgment of God (not of Christ - that is a completely different judgment of the believers for rewards).

(Imo) the believers of this day will, for the most part, be ashamed at how very little they have left when the works are judged by fire (as Paul states).

As I have grown old, I find myself sometime overwhelmed with the grief of the sin(s) of and in my life, and am so grateful that the God in heaven is filled with mercy and grace.

I do disagree with the statement made in one post (don't remember the poster) that contended for God disregarding even the prayers of a believer if there is sin in their life.

To me, that is just not a biblical view, especially in the light of what the Lord Jesus spoke "I will never leave you, nor forsake you."

To me, that is why the Corinthians died early, because God was watching and was paying attention and brought rebuke that they didn't respond to, and finally cut some off from this living.

But this post is a lot of "to me" and filled with my opinion.

 

Sorry,,,,,but that is not taught in this passage-Individual Christians are indwelt by the Spirit...but this is speaking of the body of believers;
4. (16-17) The church as a temple.


Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.


Guzik;
a. You are the temple of God: Paul will later (1 Corinthians 6:19-20) speak as individual Christians being temples. Here his emphasis is on the church as a whole (though it has application to individuals).


i. When Paul calls the church a temple, don't think he is using a picture. The physical temple was the picture; God's dwelling in us is the reality.


b. What makes the church a temple? The Spirit of God dwells in you. The ancient Greek word used for temple (naos) refers to the actual sanctuary, the place of the deity's dwelling, in contrast to the broader word hieron, which was the temple area in general.


c. If anyone defiles the temple of God: If you defile the church, God will destroy you. God's temple - His church - is holy, and it matters to God how we treat His holy temple.

JFB-

1 Corinthians 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
16. Know ye not—It is no new thing I tell you, in calling you "God's building"; ye know and ought to remember, ye are the noblest kind of building, "the temple of God."
ye—all Christians form together one vast temple. The expression is not, "ye are temples," but "ye are the temple" collectively, and "lively stones" (1Pe 2:5) individually.

ναὸς Θεοῦ ἐστε. Not ‘a temple of God,’ but ‘God’s Temple.’ There is but one Temple, embodied equally truly in the whole Church, in the local Church, and in the individual Christian; the local Church is meant here. As a metaphor for the Divine indwelling, the ναός, which contained the Holy of Holies, is more suitable than ἱερόν, which included the whole of the sacred enclosure (6:19; 2 Corinthians 6:16; Ephesians 2:21). To converts from heathenism the ναός might suggest the cella in which the image of the god was placed. It is one of the paradoxes of the Christian Church that there is only one ναὸς Θεοῦ and yet each Christian is a ναός: simul omnes unum templum et singula templa sumus, quia non est Deus in omnibus quam in singulis major (Herv.). Ναός is from ναίειν, ‘to dwell.’
Here the reference is to unchristian faction, which destroyed, by dividing, the unity of the Church: a building shattered into separate parts is a ruin. In 6:19 the thought is of uncleanness in the strict sense. But all sin is a defiling of the Temple and is destructive of its consecrated state.* We have a similar play on words to express a similar resemblance between sin and its punishment in Romans 1:28; καθὼς οὐκ ἐδοκίμασαν τὸν Θεὸν ἔχειν ἐν ἐπιγνώσει, παρέδωκεν αὐτοὺς ὁ Θεὸς εἰς ἀδόκιμον νοῦν. And there is a still closer parallel in Revelation 11:18; διαφθεῖραι τοὺς διαφθείροντας τὴν γῆν. Neither φθείρειν nor διαφθείρειν are commonly used of God’s judgments, for which the more usual verb is ἀπολλύειν or ἀπολλύναι: but both here and in Revelation 11:18 φθείρειν or διαφθείρειν is preferred, because of its double meaning, ‘corrupt’ and ‘destroy.’ The sinner destroys by corrupting what is holy and good, and for this God destroys him. We have φθείρειν in the sense of corrupt, 15:33; 2 Corinthians 11:3; Revelation 19:2.

 

I agree, and although DHK is not calvinistic in his thinking, he also agrees that God's salvation cannot be lost. Perhaps in the excitement you all are talking past each other??

Of course not, it follows the second two thirds of Romans 1 which shows the results of God no longer willing to put up with such.

I am assuming you are talking about the great and final judgment following the doing away with the old polluted by all enemies of God heaven and earth.

Because I am Pre-mil (as is DHK), we see the Judgment of that time not involving pre-mil saints, rather all humankind (unsaved from Adam on) and all of the Millennium folks (believers or not) at that great and final judgment. Believers of this gentile church time (as Paul indicates it is) are mere spectators at that final judgment.

However, the a-mil and post mil folks should remember that their views do not account for such a time of the judgment seat of Christ and marriage supper of the lamb during a time of great turmoil and tribulation upon the earth. And because of that, I think in skimming through the posts, a bit of miss communication has taken place.

Agreed with this condition:
Believers (because they are the only ones with true free will - to obey or not - can determine to not follow the prompting of the Holy Spirit. Those that continue on that path, again, are as the Corinthian believers who God took early. They did not head the rebukes.

Now, it is true that God will work in us (believers) to WILL and Do his good pleasure, and if we don't then He will bring us rebuke (as any Father would).

I would not use Philippians 2 as you have.

12So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.​

Rather, I see the passage in the frame of God's work will be done through us as we obey Him in our salvation with reverence and honor.

Just because one becomes a believer, there is no guarantee that they will "work out their own salvation." Again, I point to the Corinthians.

Here I think we would disagree.

I see verse seven as those who desire their own honor and glory and (as some boast) will take immortality and eternal life when they face it, thinking that God will overlook their haughty pride and arrogance. Their selfish self assurance is just as evil as any unbelief.
The same with verse 8- but these are just bullies who think they can get by with anything and perhaps get the last rights, spend a few years in flames, give sums for relief, and eventually it will all turn out fine.
Verse 9 - the estate of every person (unbeliever) that does evil.

I don't see believers being on the scene from the the 18th verse of chapter 1 until the opening verses of chapter 3.

I have had to rush this response, so please pardon any thing that doesn't quite make sense, point it out and I will take care of it another time.

 

Icon,
I just don't agree with the thinking that places the Holy Spirit as "indwelling" an assembly.

I know some authorities do, but I don't.

When Christ said, "lo, I am with you always" he wasn't taking to the plural group, although they were in a group. He was talking to the individuals who made and make up the group. And as the individuals gather together did He not say that He was in their midst? So, what happens when one is not with the group? Are they left out of the Holy Spirit? No.

The same with this passage. It is individuals who make up the assembly. Not all in the assembly are wheat. So, not all in the assembly are Holy Spirit filled. As the Holy Spirit moves the individuals are to perform the tasks. Again, just as Paul stated about the orderliness of the assemblies.

Therefore, the passage must be taken (imo) as a singular you, meaning individuals, who gather in a community of people who folks assume are believers. Each one supposedly filled with the Holy Spirit, each one a micro sanctuary which when assembled with others fits into the perfect grouping God ordains for His work. What divides a church is not just unbelievers in the midst, but those believers who are not filled with the Holy Spirit.

This is I understand is contrary to your thinking on the passage, but never the less, it is what I consider the essence of what Paul was stating.

 

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=551119391
at about the 11 minute mark he starts to open up the text ,,,,it is plural.

 

I am on my way out, but I did want to respond.

Like I said, I disagree with some "authorities" for most desire (imo) to bolster the assembly above the individual believer, not understanding (imo) that it is the individual believers that make up the assembly.

Basic Greek - "in your body" is sṓma – the physical body. sṓma is also used figuratively of the mystical Body of Christ (= the Church, the one people of God). (Strong's) I don't have time to go to my other resources.

This chapter is applied in context to individuals who gather in the assembly. So, the you, is by context to be taken as I stated.

Again, I repeat, the same happens when the Lord Jesus is encouraging the disciples, with the statement, "I am with you always..."

He didn't mean that it was only applied to them when they were grouped together, but individually and as they and other believers grouped "I will be in your midst."

There is evidence of the progression from individual to group, but in every case when dealing with the conduct, discipline, gifts... it is first about the individual and then toward the group as that individual contributes.

You also know that in the New Jerusalem there is NO temple. Now, if in fact when the believers gather they are the temple, as you would hold, then the Apostle John was wrong in stating their is no temple in that final estate.


Now, again I know you mightily disagree, and that is fine.

I am right, because the basic Greek gives me the proof and not some "authority" that may or may not have an agenda or need to wax eloquent to impress.

 

We agree in part.....but disagree .
I have heard this passage preached a number of times over the years.
Each believer is indwelt on this we agree.
Individual believers are Kingdom members.
When they assemble they are the local church....plural members, not individuals as will be discussed in chapter 6.
None of the commentaries I offered seemed to have any agenda.....they just said what they saw....
Nevertheless. ....you offered your understanding of it,as did I.
I am thankful that you did not feel the need to suggest I believe in a works salvation,or cult like beliefsSmile

 

To quote me word for word, and then call it a lie? Who is the one unethical here?
Here is what I said and you just quoted:

I previously said:
The Bible teaches that we get to heaven by his grace. It is not by works, neither are we kept out by certain deeds or misdeeds.

I have been reiterating that statement for several posts now. You can go back and count them. You have been teaching the opposite and supporting your "theory" by quoting from Romans 2 and Matthew 25. Everyone following this thread can clearly see that. I have not veered from the topic of salvation, BTW, so don't try to make it about the Christian life. I have continued to say that salvation is by grace and not by works. We are not kept out of heaven by our misdeeds and/or sins. You have constantly disagreed with this last portion. If you say that you don't, then you lie.

I can go back and quote you word for word if you like.
You say that unbelief "is not the only sin preventing one from heaven." Right?
There are others well, you say. You listed some. You believe all sin keeps one out of heaven.
The Bible explicitly teaches that it is the rejection of Jesus Christ that keeps one from entering heaven, not our misdeeds.
If our misdeeds keep us out of heaven, then logically the opposite is true, our deeds allow us into heaven! and thus a religion of works. With your supporting Scripture of Romans 2, this is what you have been propagating--Not salvation by grace through faith. Read through your own posts!

Are they unsaved because of their "sins," their "righteous good works," etc.
Or are they unsaved because they have rejected the Lord Jesus Christ. In God's sight it is the latter that counts.

Works salvation again! No one is saved by "active obedience"!
The only way that one can be saved is by graced through faith and not through active obedience or works.

Those at the Great White Throne are there because their names are not written in the Lamb's book of Life. Why? Because they did not put their faith in Christ.

I have been posting this throughout many posts:

The Bible teaches that salvation is through Christ alone, through faith in Christ alone, and "not of works."

You have been the one refuting it saying that works have been necessary. If one is kept out by their misdeeds then obviously they are let in by their deeds.

You have done it again. This is a clear unbiblical error that you are teaching, and Jesus never taught it!
This is what I said:

Neither are we kept out because of our misdeeds

It is serious error. We are kept out of heaven because we don't trust Christ. What is the meaning of John 14:6 to you?
The Scripture you quote all have a different context.

Icon does deny this. You deny a very basic Biblical truth:
That is "Salvation is through faith in Christ, and in Christ alone." (John 14:6)

Your disagreement with the statement

"Neither are we kept out because of our misdeeds"

--would show you don't believe salvation is by faith in Christ.

 

"DHK,

It is still you...

yes you have ...and the problem is twofold...first your statement as posted is contradictory and unbiblical......lets look yet again

I told you if this was all you said there would be no problem...everyone on BB believes this!
But you do not stop there...because of your agenda you offer this contradiction and then falsely accuse me of something I do not believe.

So you now offer this;

 

[DHKpt2;
DHK continued

You falsely claim this againDevilish

any and all uncovered sin leads to hell;
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

• So....now you deny that the active obedience of the Lord Jesus Christ saves????

because that is exactly what I posted; Agedman sawit..let me show you again and see if you want to blaspheme again..I said this;
Let me suggest to you what is taught here...
At the judgment perfection and perfectly sinless works are required.
Only Jesus and His Active obedience is accepted by The Father.
Jesus kept the law...[ten commandments perfectly}
That perfection is put to the account of the elect.

You lie and bear false witness once again...I never said that portion in red...that is from your twisted thinking

You say "we"...are you counting yourself among the unsaved now???

More direct lies as is shown here...DevilishDevilishDevilishDevilishDevilish

 

Leave it alone now Icon.
You are simply making false accusation in anger and frustration. We are both off topic as well.

Go back to the OP:

And back it up with scripture.

 

I believe that the Christian may live a "Carnal life" (carnal being taken as "living desirous of that which is earthy, of the flesh, lust an excess with little limits").

How long they will live is dependent upon the grace of God and the response to rebukes.

I do think a believer can and does cut the life short by how they live as a believer.

I do think a believer can and does cut the mental acuity and health short by what their mind dwells upon and the purity of what they allow themselves to ponder over.

I do think a believer's personality is marred and damaged by the attitude and temperament that they encase themselves.

I do think that a believer's response to tragedy God has permitted to be part of their living will determine to a great extent the next level or less level of service offered.

And so forth.

I also think that the Scriptures of the OT are full of examples of folks who "stepped out of line" (so to speak) and we see God dealing with them - even to the point that that person died.

So, can a believer be carnal? Yes.

Can they continue undisturbed in that estate?

Absolutely not.

(sorry, I didn't post any Scriptures - considering the BB folks can take the statements and draw from the examples of the OT).