Featured John Nelson Darby and Pre-trib-dispensationalism

blessedwife318 · Nov 25, 2015

agedman said: ↑

I would like to point out that there were those who held (even hold) to God in some manner rejecting, replacing, or cancelling all covenant relationships with Israel in favor of the "church."

Romans addresses this issue and so it was a problem of thinking even back then.
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Romans is actually a problem for Diapensaltialiat with it talking about Spiritual Israel and not all Israel is Isarel. When Dispensationlist talk about the Israel Church divide they mean that Israel is distinct from the church and that the promises in the OT made to her are yet to be fulfilled. Israel will have the land and all the blessings that go with it during the millennium. The church will not exist in the millennium since that is for Israel.
Darby and Scofield both referred to the church as a parentheses in God's program since it was all about Israel to them. That's why they insist on a pretrib rapture since the church needs to be taken out of the way in their view before God can go back to dealing and fulfilling his promise to Isarel.

What you are talking about is "replacement theology" which Dispensationalist absolutely reject.

TCassidy · Nov 25, 2015

HankD said: ↑

Problem Tom:
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I think you know as well as I that I was referring to the moral law as embodied in the decalogue.

HankD · Nov 25, 2015

TCassidy said: ↑

I think you know as well as I that I was referring to the moral law as embodied in the decalogue.
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Right, I was pretty sure, it was for the benefit of others.

I guess I'm paranoid about this strange Jewish led but gentile run messianic "Christianity" around these parts. A strange revival of the Acts 15 Judaizers.

HankD

Jordan Kurecki · Nov 25, 2015

Rippon said: ↑

Jordon, what has you all riled up? Do you object to Darby's own words quoted by Thomas Ice?

You better be careful with those accusations of yours. Will you be man enough, and more importantly, Christian enough, to admit you are wrong and apologize for your intemperate words?
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I am tired of Old Regular flat out lying publicly.

I have showed and posted quotes from Irenaeous showing that he believed in a pre tribulation rapture.
Obvously then Darby cannot be the inventor of the Pre-trib rapture.

It angers me to see someone attacking the biblical doctrine of the rapture using repeated lies.
Oldregular is flat out lying here and I am not afraid to say it.
When you know something is not true and you continue to state it as truth, that is a lie.

I make no apologies, if he wishes to lie publicly then I have no restraints calling him out on it publicly.

OldRegular · Nov 25, 2015

Strange thing about the pre-trib-dispensationalists is their denial of the truth that this form of dispensationalism originated with John Nelson DARBY about 1830 while he was recuperating at his sisters home followmg a riding accident. Dispensationalist and scholar Dr. Thomas Ice has confirmed this truth. {I believe a lazy theologian breeds error and trouble but that is just my opnion.}

I presented quotes from Dr. Ice some months ago in a lengthy discussion with DHK. I am sure that all who believe pre-tribulation removal of the CHURCH is gross Biblical error have been stomped on by DHK under thread of banishmant {to hell if not from the Baptist Board}.

Though I quote Dispensational scholars, and did so to DHK, I am the LIAR. Go Figure@! As for
Jordan Ahh! Kurecki I can't recall debating him but age does have its blessings. Anyhow pre=trib-dispensationalist and scholar Dr. Thomas Ice calls DARBY the father of pre-trib-dispensationalism and I am not one to argue with one who supports my view.

Blessed Wife you are like a breath of fresh air amongst these old gray beards around here. All I can grow is mustache. That peach fuzz on my face is just not sufficient for a beard.

Jordan Kurecki · Nov 25, 2015

OldRegular said: ↑

Strange thing about the pre-trib-dispensationalists is their denial of the truth that this form of dispensationalism originated with John Nelson DARBY about 1830 while he was recuperating at his sisters home followmg a riding accident. Dispensationalist and scholar Dr. Thomas Ice has confirmed this truth. {I believe a lazy theologian breeds error and trouble but that is just my opnion.}

I presented quotes from Dr. Ice some months ago in a lengthy discussion with DHK. I am sure that all who believe pre-tribulation removal of the CHURCH is gross Biblical error have been stomped on by DHK under thread of banishmant {to hell if not from the Baptist Board}.

Though I quote Dispensational scholars, and did so to DHK, I am the LIAR. Go Figure@!

Blessed Wife you are like a breath of fresh air amongst thes old gray beards around here. All I can grow is mustache. That peach fuzz on my face is just not sufficient for a beard.
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You have stated many times that Darby came up with the pretrib rapture.
Irenaeous believed in a pre-trib rapture and predates Darby by over 1,000 years.

Please explain to me how Darby came up with the rapture if someone else believed it more than a 1,000 years before him.

OldRegular · Nov 25, 2015

agedman said: ↑

Perhaps the key work is not "Dispensationalism" but "modern."

That little word is a qualifier that removes it from stating that there was the nothing preexisting Darby.

That little word ("modern") would also be correct in that it is certainly "Darby" thinking that the last 150 years or more has brought the question of the future into reality with the modern news. Many modern christian books wouldn't be nearly as interesting a read if it were not for adopting at least a portion of the futuristic scheme of Darby.

However, there were futurists from the time of the Apostles. Such were those believers who got a bit misdirected and Paul had to give re-direction, too.

So, "futurist" thinking wasn't invented by Darby, either.

What did he actually "invent?" Not much in my opinion.

From what I have read so far, the man does more in combating the governmental and hierarchical driven church that is bound to government, policy, denomination, and / or some form of bishopric rather than Scriptures. His eschatology seems rather lesser in emphasis as a comparison at this point. He is somewhat "Separatist" in his teaching of Scriptures. Well, that is a general impression I have so far.
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Then you need to read more agedman!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can you present one passage of Scripture that shows the CHURCH, for which Jesius Christ died, is a parenthesis, an interruption, in GOD's program for naionsl Israel? If it is not in the Bible then it is the invention of fallible man!!!!!! If you can then please, please do so! If you can't then confess that pre-trib-dispensationalism is the invention of man and is as false as the lie that the pope is the vicar of Jesus Christ!

Israel was chosen for the single purpose of bringing Jesus Christ into the world. After that their task was complete and they are no more precious in the sight of GOD than any other ethnic group.

OldRegular · Nov 25, 2015

DHK and the OP

DHK said: ↑

Until OR or Icon tried to tell me who T. Ice was, I had never heard of him, and I still haven't read anything more than is posted on this board by him. You say they are "current leaders" of the movement. You may or may not be right; I don't know. It doesn't matter to me. I never learned anything about dispensationalism through those men. They don't matter to me, neither do their opinions. There are thousands of Christians who believe in dispensationalism who are very likely the same--never heard of Ice or never read Ryrie. Why do you assume that these men should be the self-proclaimed current leaders? Because they write books? Many have written books. Information on this topic is all over the place.

The sources used by OR in the OP were chosen by OR, and the passages he chose to represent Dispensationalism were obviously biased.
Let's see:
Dispensationalism is demonic.
Dispensationalism came from visions caused by a fall from a horse.
His take on the history of dispensationalism:
And with other such quotes he portrays dispensationalism. Is that a fair way to portray a doctrine like this?
I know a good way how to portray Calvinism by relating it to its founder!
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JOHN NELSON DARBY AND THE RAPTURE {http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice-JohnNelsonDarbyandth.pdf}

by Thomas Ice

Supporters of pretribulationism generally believe that John Nelson Darby (1800– 1882) revived this lost New Testament teaching through intense Bible study during convalescence from a riding accident in December 1827 and January 1828. Evangelical opponents of pretribulationism often put forth theories that cast Darby in a bad light. For example, some say Darby got it from Edward Irving (1792–1834), while others say it originated from the prophetic utterance of a fifteen-year old Scottish lassie Margaret Macdonald (1815–1840). Both sources are understood to be tainted since Irving was considered exocentric and heretical and Macdonald’s prophetic utterance is thought to be demonic. What is the evidence that Darby developed his view from his own personal study?

//snip//

A PROVIDENTIAL ACCIDENT

At this time, Darby was experiencing a disappointment from a failed spiritual and physical austerity phase in his life, the reality of an Erastian31 church that he believed was in ruins and differed little from the unbelieving world, and his search for an assurance of salvation in his conscience. “Darby’s Christian understanding and experience were about to change radically,” notes Brethren historian Tim Grass. As one who began his ministry as a high churchman, Darby was on the verge of becoming an evangelical dissenter when he experienced a riding accident. Darby describes it as follows:

"As soon as I was ordained, I went amongst the poor Irish mountaineers, in a wild and uncultivated district, where I remained two years and three months, working as best I could. I felt, however, that the style of work was not in agreement with what I read in the Bible concerning the church and Christianity; nor did it correspond with the effects of the action of the Spirit of God. These considerations pressed upon me from a scriptural and practical point of view; while seeking assiduously to fulfil the duties of the ministry confided to me, working day and night amongst the people, who were almost as wild as the mountains they inhabited. An accident happened which laid me aside for a time; my horse was frightened and had thrown me against a door-post."

This period of Darby’s life is known among Darby scholars as “The Convalescence” during which he experienced “The Deliverance.” After the accident, Darby was taken to the home of Susannah Pennefather (1785–1862), his older sister, in Dublin in order to recover. Darby’s convalescence was a time when “the questions in his mind began to resolve themselves.” He wrote: “I was troubled in the same way when a clergyman, but never had the smallest shadow of it since.” He declared: “I judge it as Satan: but going from cabin to cabin to speak of Christ, and with souls, these thoughts sprang up, and if I sought to quote a text to myself it seemed a shadow and not real. I ought never to have been there, but do not think that this was the cause, but simply that I was not set free according to Romans viii. As I have said, I have never had it at all since.”

The three or more months Darby spent recuperating from his accident were undoubtedly the most formative period in his life and remarked upon it. In one account he states:

I am daily more struck with the connection of the great principles on which my mind was exercised by and with God, when I found salvation and peace, and the questions agitated and agitating the world at the present day: the absolute, divine authority and certainty of the Word, as a divine link between us and God, if everything (church and world) went; personal assurance of salvation in a new condition by being in Christ; the church as His body; Christ coming to receive us to Himself; and collaterally with that, the setting up of a new earthly dispensation, from Isaiah xxxii. (more particularly the end); all this was when laid aside at E. P.'s in 1827; the house character of the assembly on earth (not the fact of the presence of the Spirit) was subsequently. It was a vague fact which received form in my mind long after, that there must be a wholly new order of things, if God was to have His way, and the craving of the heart after it I had felt long before; but the church and redemption I did not know till the time I have spoken of; but eight years before, universal sorrow and sin pressed upon my spirit. I did not think to say so much of myself; but it is all well. The truth remains the truth, and it is on that we have to go; but the Lord's dealings with the soul, connected with the use of truth, have to be noted.

Further identification of the date and what Darby believed happened to him spiritually during that time is seen in another statement by Darby in a letter in which he wrote, “I believe at my deliverance from bondage in 1827–8, God opened up certain truths needed for the church.”38 What did Darby claim he realized during his convalescence during December 1827 and January 1828? He enumerates five things.

First, Darby says that he realized “the absolute, divine authority and certainty of the Word, as a divine link between us and God,”39 which caused “the scriptures to gain complete ascendancy over me.”40 Darby confirms an evangelical view of the inspiration and authority of Scripture.

Second, he states: “I came to understand that I was united to Christ in heaven, and that consequently, my place before God was represented by His own.” Again he wrote, “personal assurance of salvation in a new condition by being in Christ; the church as His body.”

Third, Darby understood more fully his present standing with Christ in heaven. Such a heavenly standing becomes the basis for much of Darby’s theology that sees the believer already positioned with Christ in heaven. “I was in Christ, accepted in the Beloved, and sitting in heavenly places in Him. This led me directly to the apprehension of what the true church of God was, those that were united to Christ in heaven.”43

Fourth, he says that he realized that he should daily expect the Lord’s return. “At the same time, I saw that the Christian, having his place in Christ in heaven, has nothing to wait for save the coming of the Saviour, in order to be set, in fact, in the glory which is already his portion ‘in Christ.’” Further he says, “I saw in that word the coming of Christ to take the church to Himself in glory.” Darby speaks of “being in Christ; the church as His body; Christ coming to receive us to Himself; . . . all this was when laid aside at E. P.'s in 1827.” Again Darby says of his convalescence discovery: “The coming of he Lord was the other truth which was brought to my mind from the word, as that which, if sitting in heavenly places in Christ, was alone to be waited for, that I might sit in heavenly places with Him.”
Such a cluster of beliefs that were formulated at this time provides the rationale for a pretribulational rapture. Darby had seen the importance of an imminent return of Christ for His bride.

Fifth, Darby saw a change in dispensation. This could mean that it was at this time that shifted in his eschatology from postmillennialism to premillennialism. “Christ coming to receive us to Himself; and collaterally with that, the setting up of a new earthly dispensation, from Isaiah xxxii. (more particularly the end); all this was when laid aside at E. P.'s in 1827.” He writes of his studies in Isaiah: “Isaiah xxxii. brought me to the earthly consequences of the same truth, though other passages might seem perhaps more striking to me now; but I saw an evident change of dispensation in that chapter, when the Spirit would be poured out on the Jewish nation, and a king reign in righteousness.”

McCree79 · Nov 25, 2015

Jordan Kurecki said: ↑

You have stated many times that Darby came up with the pretrib rapture.
Irenaeous believed in a pre-trib rapture and predates Darby by over 1,000 years.

Please explain to me how Darby came up with the rapture if someone else believed it more than a 1,000 years before him.
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Jordan,

I missed the Irenaeus quote. Can you repost it of give me the post number!

Sent from my LGLK430 using Tapatalk

evangelist6589 · Nov 25, 2015

InTheLight said: ↑

Four pages of arguing about nothing.

Carry on.
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I miss the Kangaroo avatar.

HankD · Nov 25, 2015

Many years ago there was a debate between myself and Tom the BB preterist of renown. Many posts were quoted by myself from the Early Church Fathers (ECF) supporting the rapture, the tribulation, the millennium and other "dispensations".

This had to do with preterism vs futurism but could be beneficial for this debate assuming those in contention will set aside the fiery emotions.

Dispensation-alism is a biblical word although it was not used by the ECF in the way it was used by Darby and etc but they spoke of ages, eons, etc.

Scan for HankD "church fathers", etc to see the patristic quotes in the archives (don't remember the year).

I don't know who this Ice person is but I do know that Darby was not the "father" of a pretribulation rapture.

Neither is it fair IMO for OR to make the connection that the erroneous doctrine of the "parenthesis" of the church begs a pretibulation rapture. Throw out the "parenthesis" doctrine and the pretribulation rapture stands on it own from an interpretation of 1 Thessalonians 4 13-18 whether that interpretation is acceptable to you or not.

Personally in my estimation this argument has devolved into something far less worthy than the hacking to death of each other over the inability to pronounce "shibboleth" in the proper manner destroying the unity and fellowship of the Body of Christ.

HankD

blessedwife318 · Nov 25, 2015

Thomas Ice founder and director of the Pre-trib research center

" Irenaeus

Some have thought that Irenaeus (c. 180) could be a pre-trib rapture statement since he actually speaks of the rapture: the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this [the tribulation], as noted below:

And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be. For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.[7]

http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/a-history-of-pre-darby-rapture-advocates

However, the very next statement speaks of believers in the tribulation. When taken within the context of all of Irenaeus writings on these subjects, it appears that he was not teaching pretribulationism. "

Later in the same book Irenaeus says this:
"For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in [the times of] which [resurrection] the righteous shall reign in the earth, waxing stronger by the sight of the Lord: and through Him they shall become accustomed to partake in the glory of God the Father, and shall enjoy in the kingdom intercourse and communion with the holy angels, and union with spiritual beings; and [with respect to] those whom the Lord shall find in the flesh, awaiting Him from heaven, and who have suffered tribulation, as well as escaped the hands of the Wicked one. "

You can find all of his writing at this site

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/irenaeus.html

DHK · Nov 26, 2015

OldRegular said: ↑

JOHN NELSON DARBY AND THE RAPTURE {http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice-JohnNelsonDarbyandth.pdf}

by Thomas Ice
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How does the repetitive quoting of this material add anything of value to this debate. It only takes up valuable space.
You and Rippon have much in common.
Rippon defends his beloved Calvinism by making Calvin the man into a saint. He has started many threads on Calvin defending him from all wrong doing, clearing him from any wrong that may be attached to Servetus, etc. He makes him into a saint, and therefore we are to believe that his religion, Calvinism, is also "saintly" or the right one to follow.

OTOH, you attack with great zeal and fervor the person of Darby, and then you attach dispensationalism to his name. By attacking the person you think you can attack the doctrine. Your hatred of the person transfers to the hatred of the doctrine. You continue your rant on Darby thinking that any intelligent person would never believe in dispensationalism because Darby was such an evil and misled person. Like Rippon believes Calvinism is good because Calvin was supposedly good, you believe dispensationalism is evil because Darby was supposedly evil.

You really ought to be able to debate the doctrine without the person. I often wonder why you can't do that. I suppose I will never get an answer though.

DHK · Nov 26, 2015

An interesting thought:

2. The Zionist movement of the mid 1800's, led at the forefront by Theodor Herzl of Vienna, and resulting in England’s Balfour Declaration of 1917, which officially proposed a National Homeland for the Jewish people in Palestine. The United Nations divided Palestine about equally into a Jewish and an Arab state, with an international zone for Jerusalem, and Israel again became a nation on May 15, 1948. The nation that brought forth Christ, a nation born "at once", Isa 66:8, the nation that forever has a future. (Isa 2:2, 9:6&7, 54:3, 60:1-5, Jer 3:16-19, & 23:1-8, Eze 36:24-38, & 37:12-14, Joel 3:17-21, Amos 9:11-15, Micah 4:1-8, and Zech 8:20-23, &14:16-21.)

Eschatological passages, Old and New Testament, can now be taken as LITERAL, for the first time in Church history! Taken as literal, the pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church, 7 year Tribulation, Armageddon, Second Advent and 1000 year Reign of Christ on this present earth is obvious, to me. There is no longer any need to "spiritualize" the plain and literal meaning of Scripture away, when the Scripture can be taken literally. I believe that the Amillennial authors and media personalities of today are just holdovers from pre 1900's Amillennial theology.

I’m glad that God is in control of all this! In Joel 3:2, and Zeph 3:8, God says He will gather all the nations against Israel for the battle of Armageddon. Rev 17:17 God puts it into the hearts of the 10 European Kings to destroy the religious system of Antichrist during the Tribulation. I’m glad it doesn’t depend on our understanding!

Did you know that the book of Revelation is the only book in the Bible to promise special "blessings" to it’s readers and hearers? Seven times! And the word "blessings" means plural "happinesses".
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A quote from Bob Jones.
http://www.biblefood.com/raphist.html

blessedwife318 · Nov 26, 2015

Reformed said: ↑

You left out John Hagee. Do not forget him. On the Disp-O-Meter he pegs the needle!
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I did not have to read him in College, and I figured I would be nice and leave him off especially since he is what you get when you take the church Israel split to its logical conclusion. He is not quoted in any of the scholarly works I have by pro Dispensatiolism. Even they don't want to acknowledge him which I appreciate the irony of.

blessedwife318 · Nov 26, 2015

Reformed said: ↑

Undoubtedly. What one believes about eschatology impacts other areas of theology. The difficult part about theology is remaining consistent. That is why some Christians, aware that they are not consistent, attempt to defend their inconsistency by saying they do not believe in systematic theology. Of course it leads them down theological bunny trails that are difficult to get out of. We are all prone to that if we are not careful.
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That was the final push for me. DC made it clear to me that if you are going to be a dispensationalist and be consistent that would involve believing that Satan is the god of this world, that Adam gave the world over to Satan at the fall. That is a WOF idea I find abhorrent for many many reasons. To be consistent with what the Bible teaches about God's Sovereignty I had to leave behind the system I grew up in and had studied in, but I had to bow to what the Bible taught.

HankD · Nov 26, 2015

I will be the first to admit that my views RE eschatology have changed over the years.

But because someone distances themselves from Darby (for instance) does not IMO destroy the Covenant-Dispensational aspect of what is commonly called "dispensationalism" as is the same with calvinism and those who do not blindly adhere to TULIP.

Or mentioning again Trinitarianism: Athanasius was the champion of the traditional and progressively developed doctrine of the Trinity.
However (and this is modernly) many KJVO distance themselves from him because he was ALEXANDRIAN (kind of like being a Samaritan in KJVO eyes).

Christ will RETURN and when He does if it doesn't match my puny attempts to align the details and surrounding events of 1 Thessalonians 4 with the rest of scripture then I will gladly throw out those flawed attempts and that for all eternity.

1 Thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

HankD

HankD · Nov 26, 2015

As an addendum: IMO, It is not proper for Christians to make remarks such as "for me, I have chosen to follow the Bible" - Personally I am not guiltless.

And this permeates ALL divisions within Christendom.

You do not know the heart of those you accuse (yes accusation by innuendo but an accusation nonetheless) of disbelief.

At least the accuser of the brethren has a much better grasp than any of us concerning that matter. Why take sides with him?

HankD

HankD · Nov 26, 2015

blessedwife318 said: ↑

That was the final push for me. DC made it clear to me that if you are going to be a dispensationalist and be consistent that would involve believing that Satan is the god of this world, that Adam gave the world over to Satan at the fall. That is a WOF idea I find abhorrent for many many reasons. To be consistent with what the Bible teaches about God's Sovereignty I had to leave behind the system I grew up in and had studied in, but I had to bow to what the Bible taught.
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Of course God is sovereign and in His sovereignty He has allowed the wicked one to take what is not his.

Luke 4
5 Then the devil, taking Him up on a high mountain, showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
6 And the devil said to Him, "All this authority I will give You, and their glory; for this has been delivered to me, and I give it to whomever I wish.
7 "Therefore, if You will worship before me, all will be Yours."

Jesus did not challenge the devil's authority over this world but rebuked him for making himself an object of the worship God alone deserves.

1 John 5:19 We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

Obviously that will change and soon - or so it seems.

HankD

blessedwife318 · Nov 26, 2015

Yeah I knew someone was going to quote Satan's temptation of Jesus, and I'll say the same thing now that I said in the thread where that originally came up, I don't consider the father of lies a credible source.

And 1 John is talking about the world system, not the physical earth.

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