Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
Straightforward question here.
Did our Lord suffer God's wrath in payment for sin?
Did our Lord suffer God's wrath in payment for sin?
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Did Christ Experience the Wrath of God?
- Thread starter Internet Theologian
- Start date
Read Isaiah 53........
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
Noted. However, what from that passage explicitly states that Christ suffered God's wrath? Or is it merely implied from the text?
Best example may be Isaiah 53:4-5
"Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed."
Smitten (nakah) is the word to look at here. Means beat, kill, make murder, punish, strike.
It is also used in Exodus 3:20 in reference to "strike" the Egyptians and in Isaiah 5:25 when God "stuck them down" when He burned with anger.
Not necessarily a slam dunk, but worthy of consideration.
Sent from my LGLK430 using Tapatalk
What is the wrath of God? I believe Christ experienced the wages of sin, not for his own sin but for ours. However I also believe, whereas I do not think most on here will agree, is that when Jesus cried out, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me," that forsaking was for three days and three nights. Is that the wrath of God? And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, “Father, ‘into Your hands I commit My spirit.’ ”fn Having said this, He breathed His last. Luke 23:46 NKJV
“For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Matt 12:40 NKJV “he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. Acts 2:31 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’ ” John 20:17 NKJV
“For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Matt 12:40 NKJV “he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. Acts 2:31 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’ ” John 20:17 NKJV
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
So far all have agreed that He suffered the wrath of God, but there has been no actual substantive proof. For instance, there is no passage that says 'Jesus suffered the wrath of God' or anything like this.
I believe Scriptures imply His suffering wrath, that we get this from only from implication as it is not implicitly in a text. There have been arguments against this view in the past yet I have not seen any evidence to support a contrary view held by those in the past history of the church. Not that there may be someone in the past who has attempted to do so.
I believe Scriptures imply His suffering wrath, that we get this from only from implication as it is not implicitly in a text. There have been arguments against this view in the past yet I have not seen any evidence to support a contrary view held by those in the past history of the church. Not that there may be someone in the past who has attempted to do so.
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
Some points on Christ suffering God's wrath:
- God's wrath is just, and Jesus suffered under God's justice, His just nature, in punishing sin; Romans 3:23; 2 Cor. 5:21
- God's satisfication is also seen in that Christ was raised, His atonement being perfect, being propitiatory, a wrath that must be satisfied in order to show God as He is, Just and the Justifier; Romans 3:26.
- Romans 3:25, 26. Note it was God who had 'put forward' Christ, or put Him on 'public display' during this punishment, suffering at the hands of men, but ultimately by God's definite plan and counsel; Acts 2:23. This was none other than Christ suffering the wrath of God in public demonstration for our sins.
- Also, as noted above by one brother, He was forsaken of God; Matthew 27:46
- God's wrath is just, and Jesus suffered under God's justice, His just nature, in punishing sin; Romans 3:23; 2 Cor. 5:21
- God's satisfication is also seen in that Christ was raised, His atonement being perfect, being propitiatory, a wrath that must be satisfied in order to show God as He is, Just and the Justifier; Romans 3:26.
- Romans 3:25, 26. Note it was God who had 'put forward' Christ, or put Him on 'public display' during this punishment, suffering at the hands of men, but ultimately by God's definite plan and counsel; Acts 2:23. This was none other than Christ suffering the wrath of God in public demonstration for our sins.
- Also, as noted above by one brother, He was forsaken of God; Matthew 27:46
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2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
The Church of Rome denies that the Father poured out His wrath upon His own Son.
Why then was He made sin for us?
In addition :
1 John 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
propitiation - LS Greek Lexicon - hilasmos - a means of appeasing.
HankD
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Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
Hi HankD,
I was not aware that the RCC denied this. Certainly I could Google this but do you have any sources (not that I doubt what you say) just wondering?
Thanks for bringing up that great passage! The argument against 2 Cor. 5:21 is that Christ could not have actually been made sin because He is holy and had to remain holy and spotless throughout. But I believe this is circular reasoning or at the least falls short, and that He had to be holy to take on our sins, be made sin for us, in order to propitiate.
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
Yes to say something like this (He was made sin) without 2 Corinthians 5:21 would be really offensive. Our sin was laid upon Him in such a manner that God was appeased by His suffering -
This really shows us the horror of our sin against our pure undefiled holy God in whom there is not even a shadow of turning. Very humbling.
I have no immediate source but I am a former Catholic and this became a source of discussion between a priest and myself. It was used in attempt to keep me in the grip of Rome. I'll try to look it up again.
HankD
http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2010/04/catholic-and-reformed-conceptions-of-the-atonement/
They do make a strong case which many non-Catholics accept.
However IMO it is an attempt to minimize the horrible price of our sin.
In addition notice the St. Francis of Assisi quote wherein we are told that we can never be released from our sins because said atonement while "once for all" needs to be daily re-enacted in the mass (for our daily sins) along with our participation in the sacrament of the Eucharist to maintain the state of propitiation and therefore we are kept in bondage to the priests of Rome who alone can make the propitiatory sacrifice.
HankD
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It's curious to me that 'wrath' and 'sacrifice' occur infrequently together in the scriptures and when they do, wrath is always directed toward the sinner, rather than the sacrifice.
In other words, God's anger or wrath is directed against the guilty one and not upon the sacrificial offering accepted by God for the sinner.
Christ's offering and sacrifice turned away, appeased, the wrath of God upon the guilty.
Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! Romans 5:9 (NIV)
Rob
In other words, God's anger or wrath is directed against the guilty one and not upon the sacrificial offering accepted by God for the sinner.
Christ's offering and sacrifice turned away, appeased, the wrath of God upon the guilty.
Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! Romans 5:9 (NIV)
Rob
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
Thanks for finding and posting this. It seems to follow the RCC protocol in mitigating the Gospels effect.
I am doing this from memory, and should it be a failure, please ignore or make correction.
The word used twice by John in his first letter is not found in that form anywhere else. It is not so much pointing to the suffering, rather to the actual blood of the sacrifice which could forever appease God.
The uses of the other forms apply more toward the actions such as: mercy ("have mercy upon me"), and the scene, shadow, deed, or act of sprinkling blood on the mercy seat, and "without the shedding of blood."
John's use is more specific, more direct as to exactly what constituted the necessary medium for appeasement.
1 John 2 uses the word to show that He is the blood sacrifice.
1 John 4 uses the word to show that He was sent specifically to be the blood sacrifice.
This is important because it is by the blood itself pouring out of Christ that the appeasement is founded upon. Certainly the suffering was great, but others had suffered, and some perhaps even more for their bones would be broken adding pain to pain, no longer supporting the ability to raise up to breath, to hasten the death. That is not to diminish the suffering of the messiah, but to demonstrate that suffering wasn't enough for then any man could attain by physical work or sacrifice the appeasement needed.
The death was not the appeasing, the suffering was not the appeasing, the wooden cross not the appeasing. The medium of appeasing was that very blood oozing from the open wounds, and pouring out of the gaping hole with the fluid that surrounds that broken heart as the sack was pierced by the tip of the sword, just as the dagger would slice through the neck of the lamp for the blood to pour out quickly into a bowl to be sprinkled on the mercy seat.
Agreed, the life of the flesh is in the blood.
Oxygenated blood pouring from a wound loses its ability to give life, the forfeiture of life - the woeful promise of God - The day you eat thereof thou shalt surely die.
On the first thought, Jesus took on the nature of Abraham (a human being) born of a woman - the incarnation. But we don't know if being sinless and then bearing the sin of the world affected His sensibility to pain perhaps magnifying it beyond what you and I would suffer from a crucifixion. Maybe far beyond!
HankD
BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
Hi Brother IT,
We know Christ was made "a curse". We read, "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:" (Galatians 3:13). Now who is the one who pronounced the curse? I believe Numbers 23:8 sheds some light on this, "How shall I curse, whom God hath not cursed? or how shall I defy, whom the Lord hath not defied? (Numbers 23:8) A curse is the opposite of a blessing and was the consequence pronounced by God on the Jews who did not keep the law. “And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the Lord your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.” (Deuteronomy 11:28). Those who received a “curse of God” in the Old Testament also were associated with receiving his anger and wrath. Notice Jeremiah 42:18, “For thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; As mine anger and my fury hath been poured forth upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem; so shall my fury be poured forth upon you, when ye shall enter into Egypt: and ye shall be an execration, and an astonishment, and a curse” also Deuteronomy 29:27, “And the anger of the Lord was kindled against this land, to bring upon it all the curses that are written in this book:” What was the recompense of those “cursed of the Lord”? Christ himself tells us, “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” (Matthew 25:41). Based upon this verse, I would conclude not only did Jesus suffer the wrath of God, but as inconceivable as it is to us He suffered the consequence of those cursed for them in their stead-the equivalent of eternal damnation. Even if one does not go this far with the conclusion, from a study of those who are “cursed” of God there is plenty of scripture to strongly imply and thus lead us to conclude that yes, Christ must have suffered the wrath and anger of God when He was made “a curse” by Him. The Greek word used for “cursed” in Gal 3:13 is “epikataratos” and according to Strong’s means “doomed to destruction”. The other Greek word rendered simply “curse” in the same verse twice is “katara” and per Strong’s means “a doomed one”. Interestingly, Help Word studies actually says, “properly, what has "to go down" (penalties received) due to condemnation, i.e. the penalty-curse that results when God Himself curses (condemns) something” http://biblehub.com/greek/2671.htm
Anyone who tries to deny that these verses clearly teach that Christ suffered the wrath and anger of the Father such as the Catholic church, are denying the plain teachings of the word of God on this subject, but I guess that is no surprise to me that the Catholics would do this. My mother was an ex nun before she met my father and subsequently left the nunhood and got married. She was in there for years and never once was instructed to read the Bible, nor did she. That "church" is the whore of Babylon and I am glad my family escaped her solely through the providence of God Himself.
God bless,
Brother Joe
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Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
Brother Joseph I agree with what you say concerning teaching against this, that Christ suffered the wrath of God. It is not only those within Catholicism that teach against this though. But they do mitigate the Gospel, Scriptures, His death and efficacy thereof and place their own teachings and traditions above all of these.
We can see from the language of Scripture the implications that Christ suffered the wrath of God upon the cross in our place, for our sins. Some things are implied in Scriptures, and not directly stated, and I believe the fact that God put forward Jesus, that is, He was punished in 'public display' lends itself to expressing His suffering wrath. Isaiah 53 also shows Christ suffering God's justice and wrath in our place.
We can see from the language of Scripture the implications that Christ suffered the wrath of God upon the cross in our place, for our sins. Some things are implied in Scriptures, and not directly stated, and I believe the fact that God put forward Jesus, that is, He was punished in 'public display' lends itself to expressing His suffering wrath. Isaiah 53 also shows Christ suffering God's justice and wrath in our place.