Featured John Nelson Darby and Pre-trib-dispensationalism

....in other words you didn't want to say the guy is a screwball!!!Laugh

 

Darby's unique contribution to eschatology may be the Pre-trib rapture, but it is interesting to look at the situation that surrounded Bible prophecy in the early 19th Century.

At a distance of 200 years it's hard to realise the colossal influence that Napoleon had at the turn of the 19th Century. For 20 years he stood like a colossus over the whole of Europe. He defeated all the great nations of Europe (except the Brits ) and in 1806, he marched his troops into Berlin. He had a certain mysterious force of personality and such a power over men that many Christians began to believe that he was the Antichrist and to try to make the letters of his name add up to 666.

Of course he was defeated exactly 200 years ago at Waterloo and died in 1821 without having fulfilled that role, but he had a son and people feared that he might grow up to be a great warlord. So from 1800, people started to take a greater interest in Bible prophecy and wonder if perhaps the end-times were upon them.
A man called James Hatley Frere was maybe the first to revive Premillennialism. Frere based his predictions on his understanding of the books of Daniel and Revelation. He predicted that the world, far from moving towards a greater spreading of the Gospel, was instead moving towards a time of great suffering and that by around 1824, the end could not be far away. He also foresaw a return of the Jews to Palestine.

Frere explained his views to a man called Edward Irving who was, at that time, a very famous preacher. Irving took up Frere's teaching and preached a series of sermons on Daniel and Revelation.

'In this work he was in his element. Moved by his vigorous imagination, he could immediately fix upon the meaning of 'the beasts,' 'the heads' and 'the horns' of Daniel, and he had no difficulty in positively identifying the two witnesses in Revelation or determining the significance of every detail of the flight of the woman into the wilderness. His views were stated with dogmatic certainty and the whole was clothed in the ornate splendour of his lofty language.' [Arnold Dallimore]

Irving's sermons increased interest in prophecy to fever pitch, and a wealthy follower of Irving, Henry Drummond, held a conference on the subject at his mansion at Albury park in 1826, where 20 men, including Irving, worked themselves into a lather over the obscure details of prophecy. The strong feeling was that the end-times had arrived, Antichrist was about to appear, and the return of the Lord was very near. It was also believed that before that time arrived, there would be a special outpouring of the gifts of the Spirit- the 'signs and wonders' of the 'latter rain.' A second Albury Park Conference was held in 1828, and a quarterly magazine on prophecy, The Morning Watch was published, financed by Drummond. It was reported that the Ten lost tribes of Israel had been discovered, 'twenty million in number, inhabiting the region north of Cashmere and towards Bohara, in the great central plain of Asia.' However, a little later it was claimed that the lost tribes were actually American Red Indians, and they would all soon be emigrating to Palestine.

Then in 1830, there was a spate of people speaking in 'tongues,' starting in Scotland but spreading down to London. Many people became more and more sure that the end-times were upon them. Irving ended up in disgrace, but it was into this situation that Darby stepped. In 1832, a wealthy widow, Lady Powerscourt, held more conferences at her Stately Home in Ireland, where Darby attended and was able to use his personality to dominate them and to codify the premillennial teachings that had started with Frere.

I hope this may be of interest to some people. I am not saying whether Dispensationalism is right or wrong (not here, anyway); I hope I may have given some information on how it arose.

 

those who do not study history......Wink

 

As Martin pointed out the history of the times makes a difference.
I posted a part of this before, but I will add to it again. See if it makes a difference:

The early Church Fathers were just about evenly split on their "millennial" position, according to "The Textbook of the History of Doctrines", by Reinhold Seeburg, 1952. Many of our best 17th, 18th, and 19th century Bible scholars were "Amillennial", believing in only one final resurrection and then the Eternal State. The reason is that a literal 7 year Tribulation and Millennium, centered around a literal Israel was literally not possible in their day!

The early church fathers hardly even mentioned eschatology because there was no land of Israel for an Antichrist to make a 7 year peace pact with, and no Israel for Jesus to sit on the throne of and rule for 1000 years! All eschatology passages, Old and New Testament, were "spiritualized" to apply to the Church. Even the great Bible students and expositors E. W. Bullinger, and James Strong, who spent his whole life writing Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, both believed in the Amillennial position (No 7 year Tribulation or 1000 year Millennium).

Premillennialism and dispensational Bible teaching of today can be directly traced to John Nelson Darby, 1800-1882, and the Plymouth Brethren movement in Ireland and England about the year 1830, according to J. Dwight Pentecost and a consensus of the historical books that I have.

I see two reasons for the mid 19th century revival of Premillennialism:

1. Some of the early church fathers, especially Irenaeus and Barnabus, believed that the Church Age would be 2000 years long. (4000 years from Adam to the Cross, 2000 for the church, and 1000 for the Millennial Reign of Christ equals 7000. 6 is the number of man, 7 the number of divine completion, and 8 is a new beginning, as taught by days of the week, musical notes, the periodic table of the elements, 6 days of creation, and on the seventh, God RESTED, etc).

In the mid 1800's, when the 6000 year point loomed on the horizon, it restored an interest in Premillennial eschatology.

2. The Zionist movement of the mid 1800's, led at the forefront by Theodor Herzl of Vienna, and resulting in England’s Balfour Declaration of 1917, which officially proposed a National Homeland for the Jewish people in Palestine. The United Nations divided Palestine about equally into a Jewish and an Arab state, with an international zone for Jerusalem, and Israel again became a nation on May 15, 1948. The nation that brought forth Christ, a nation born "at once", Isa 66:8, the nation that forever has a future. (Isa 2:2, 9:6&7, 54:3, 60:1-5, Jer 3:16-19, & 23:1-8, Eze 36:24-38, & 37:12-14, Joel 3:17-21, Amos 9:11-15, Micah 4:1-8, and Zech 8:20-23, &14:16-21.)

Eschatological passages, Old and New Testament, can now be taken as LITERAL, for the first time in Church history! Taken as literal, the pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church, 7 year Tribulation, Armageddon, Second Advent and 1000 year Reign of Christ on this present earth is obvious, to me. There is no longer any need to "spiritualize" the plain and literal meaning of Scripture away, when the Scripture can be taken literally. I believe that the Amillennial authors and media personalities of today are just holdovers from pre 1900's Amillennial theology.

by Bob Jones at http://www.biblefood.com/raphist.html
_________________________________________________________________________________

It is evident that there were many systems of dispensationalism before Daby. Isaac Watts had his own, which was well thought out. When that is pointed out then the complaint is made that it wasn't like "Darby's." Thus in reality It is "Darby Dispensationalism" that never existed before Darby (obviously), but it cannot be denied that dispensationalism and well thought out systems of dispensationalism did exist.

Bob Jones explains the probable factors in the rise in interest in dispensationalism. It had more to do with just Darby. It had much to do with those who take the Bible literally. Israel was restored as a nation in 1948. She no longer was dispersed. There is no need to spiritualize scripture.
His statement:
I believe that the Amillennial authors and media personalities of today are just holdovers from pre 1900's Amillennial theology.
is quite telling.

Jones does not deny that either dispensationalism or premillenniialism existed before Darby, he simply says:
"Premillennialism and dispensational Bible teaching of today can be directly traced to John Nelson Darby,
The emphasis is "on today" or modern dispensationalism.

 

I had mentioned before concerning the debates with preterists and for whatever reason the pre-tribibulation rapture doctrine was discussed as related to the ECF.

One example given - I don't remember who the church father was and/or who I was discussing this with - probably Tom.

But the proof scripture given was when Jesus talked about Noah and Lot in Luke 17.

Luke 17
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

In each case : Noah and Lot , God spared His remnant from the wrath to come and "raptured" (raptein, harpazo, snatched, removed ) them out of the focus of the wrath. The Church Father then went on to quote the next passage:

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

In other words a proof text (understandably by application) of a pre-wrath rapture or snatching away as He had similarly done of the faithful remnant before the flood of destruction or the fiery sulfuric outpouring upon Sodom.

Followed by:

Revelation 3:10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

This post is only meant to prove ( I realize I would need to dig up the quotes) that some ECF (or maybe only 1 or 2) supported a pre-wrath, pretribulational rapture long before Darby published a pre-wrath, pre-tribulation removal of believers at the second coming.

True, they did not use the same terminology as Darby and devotees and there were many ECF variations (as there is today) of the events surrounding 1 Thessalonians 4.

Scanning through 20,000 plus ECF pages (even with a computer) looking for synonyms for "dispensation - aion", millennium - chiliad, Second Coming - parousia, etc...trying to put it all together is a daunting, wearisome task.

Ecclesiastes 12:12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

HankD

 

You are correct that this isn't the thread to discuss this issue, rather I was trying to establish what in the quote of Darby by Spurgeon would meet the standard of "heretic."

In another thread, I just replied about the cross, the suffering, and what was the actual focus.

It may be better to move this part of the discussion to the "Darby" thread I started.

 

I will "turn the other cheek" with that Bob Jones commentary & his opinion of the Amillennial position Cool

 

All believers are saints. Or are you a Roman Catholic with a different definition of the word saint?

Correction : I have defended him from lies --such as the whoppers you have told repeatedly.

I have quoted about thirty scholarly Church Historians which blow your junk out of the water.

I don't make anyone a believer --God does.

You are one deluded fellow.

No, I take that back. You are not deluded. You are deliberately lying.

What is known as Calvinism is perfectly biblical. Calvinism is good because it is biblical.

The man of Geneva was indeed a godly man who God raised up. But I do not believe what is nicknames Calvinism because he believed the same truths I hold --"In the main" (as C.H. S. has said).

What is your problem DHK? You bring the man of Geneva up out of the blue on so many occasions. He must live in your head.

 

Is it not an amazing thing that dhk has professed to have preached through1Corinthians many times (and has claimed a 'life time' devoted in so doing), and has authored a commentary on the epistle, yet still has not taken notice of 1:2? This passage explicitly states believers are in fact saints. dhk has obviously maintained his past RCC beliefs of 'sainthood' and it has bled through in his responses here.

 

Don't see your point, unless it is that I am supposed to get the same "revelation" Ice says Darby experienced. Can you find were Darby states that he experienced some "new" revelation or was Ice using "revelation" in the manner of some awakening to truth that the Holy Spirit gives any believer when one seeks the Scriptures.

If that is the case then such revelation is not anything more than "discoveries" the Scriptures hold for every believer. Scriptural truths that speak to the heart and may be published not as Scripture but as learning.

One needs to find Darby's original statement and the context consider what Ice is reporting of the experience.

You are correct. The people whom God calls by His name ARE his elect (Romans). And they who hear His word enter the rest (Hebrews). And the "New Covenant" is made to the house of Israel and Judah (Hebrews). So God is not through with the people that are His Elect.

No doubt. This is correct.

Most certainly, there are those extreme of any scheme who desire to remove the national / political Israel from the promise.

However, I (though I have not read Darby extensively (yet) ) do not agree that Darby "replaces" Israel with the church. That is more aligned with some other scheme that would state that Israel is done, finished, a tool used only to bring Christ in the flesh. That Israel will never again used as a tool.

Darby would demonstrate that thinking is wrong, by showing that God continues to use the national / political group - not a redeemed - but as a national / political group to bring to focus the time of tribulation upon the earth that results in a great series of battles that culminate in Armageddon, and stopped only by the physical return of Christ - at which time those of His name will morn and repent.

Perhaps you can show me using Darby's chart that the church is replacing the national Israel or the national Israel is replaced by the church. I don't see that on the chart.

I started a thread for that exact discussion. Would you please go to that thread and show your proof that Darby made suspect statements?

I am reading (yet, have much more to read) Darby. I have not found anything significant in his writing that would depart from the fundamental doctrines of the faith at this point in my reading.

If you know of something that I have yet to read, please, go to that thread, quote from the words of Darby and show the proof.

I am not defending Darby, but I want to know from first hand information the truth of the claims thrown at him, and what constitutes a "damnable heresy."

Why would you ask such a question, unless it is to demand that your view is somehow a superior scheme which obliges appointment of all others as lacking understanding?

Is that your attitude? Do you really consider that others, who do not agree with you, lack understanding of the elemental concerning the character and nature of God?

When He said to Moses, "I will have mercy upon whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion upon whom I have compassion" he was speaking to an uncircumcised Jew. Certainly, He has authority to extend His mercy and grace to those who He determines, regardless of national affiliation - no matter where they live - even Florida.

 

Leave it to you to draw a distinction that my Rabi friend does not.

Or are you suggesting that only members of the Levi family were circumcised?

Not sure were you got that information, but there is no Scripture support for that statement.

Again, not certain what you are attempting to prove with this statement, unless you are trying to say that some of the same family (no matter the ethnicity) will be saved and others not.

There are those who do not recognize that point, but I do. You know I do, and so I am unsure what you are attempting to place as an argument.

This is a great story. One reason I support spreading the gospel to every nation, as the Scripture states: "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek."

Using your argument above, I suppose that only those two ethnic groups (those of Judah and the Greeks) are the only ones then to ever be redeemed.

 

It's the 'wicked', the tares [Mt 13:30], not the righteous, that are being removed in the type Christ is using:

26 And as it came to pass in the days of Noah, even so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They ate, they drank, they married, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Lu 17

38 For as in those days which were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
39 and they knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall be the coming of the Son of man.
40 Then shall two man be in the field; one is taken, and one is left:
41 two women shall be grinding at the mill; one is taken, and one is left. Mt 24

And He's telling His disciples OF THAT DAY:
22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. Lu 17

And He's referring to THAT GENERATION OF HIS DAY:

25 But first must he suffer many things and be rejected of this generation. Lu 17

Just as He was in the Olivet discourse:

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

 

23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee into the next: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone through the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. Mt 10

28 Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Mt 16

40 When therefore the lord of the vineyard shall come, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those miserable men, and will let out the vineyard unto other husbandmen, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
45 And when the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. Mt 21

63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou art the Christ, the Son of God.
64 Jesus said unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Henceforth ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven. Mt 26

 

I assume that you are taking "ye" to be the chief priests. So did they?

 

I 'assume' Christ spoke truthfully; yes, every eye that He intended to see, saw Him.

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;
2 who bare witness of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, even of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand.
4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from him who is and who was and who is to come; and from the seven Spirits that are before his throne;
5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loveth us, and loosed us from our sins by his blood;
6 and he made us to be a kingdom, to be priests unto his God and Father; to him be the glory and the dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
7 Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and [EVEN] they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth [THE LAND] shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen. Rev 1

"all the tribes of the earth [THE LAND] shall mourn over him":

12 but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Mt 8

28 There shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and yourselves cast forth without. Lu 13

 

Nothing here would disagree with the thinking of Darby that I have read.

Would you please find something from Darby, some statement that you can show disagrees with the Scripture you posted?

 

Posted a verse from here, and a verse or three from there is neglecting context.

For example Matthew 16
28 “Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

This sounds like it might actually support your view, however the verse before it states.
Matthew 16
27 "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds."

Can you then clearly show a place in all history were this has occurred? Exactly when did every verse in the Scripture pertaining to the second coming of Christ be fulfilled.

For example: When is it recorded in human history that every single person on earths eye saw Him?

No record of that from the apostles.

No record of that from the earliest to the present church records.

The record of the crucifixion exists outside of the accounts given in the Scriptures, surely there must be some account that can be found among the Chinese, Mayan, Aztec, Arabic, or some other culture that wrote in some manner the history of their times.

Taking verses out of context leads to embracing a scheme that is inconsistent with the Scriptures taken as a whole.