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What is God saying?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Deacon, Dec 12, 2015.

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  1. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    “The Lord said to Samuel, “How long will you mourn for Saul, since I have rejected him as king over Israel? Fill your horn with oil and be on your way; I am sending you to Jesse of Bethlehem. I have chosen one of his sons to be king.” But Samuel said, “How can I go? If Saul hears about it, he will kill me.” The Lord said, “Take a heifer with you and say, ‘I have come to sacrifice to the Lord.’” (1 Samuel 16:1–2, NIV)​

    There are a few passages in 1 Samuel where deception seems to be acceptable, even encouraged.

    What lesson can you draw from this passage? What does it tell us about God?

    Rob
     
    #1 Deacon, Dec 12, 2015
  2. Internet Theologian

    Internet Theologian Well-Known Member

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    If you read the following verses he invited others to the sacrifice so it appears he intended on doing this, and most likely did even though the last of the chapter states how he went on his way. I don't see the deception you are seeing. Note Jeremiah 38 and especially verse 27. One need not disclose all facts to those who inquire, and it is not being deceptive, but prudent. It reminds me of Miranda rights, we are not required to speak, but can remain silent.
     
    #2 Internet Theologian, Dec 12, 2015
  3. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    Just off the top of my head, it reminds me that God is sovereign.

    The people had wanted a king like other nations had despite God sending them a message via Samuel that a king would make servants of their daughters, conscript their sons, and take their property and give it to their cronies.

    The people got what they asked for and what they deserved. King Saul - a man with terrible issues and a heart not devoted to God.

    Even thought, God was still the Ultimate King and sovereign over flawed mortal kings that the people wanted so badly. Earthly kings of Israel and kings of all nations rise and fall and his command like waves of the sea.
     
    #3 Scarlett O., Dec 12, 2015
  4. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    Still thinking about it... ...still bothered...

    Samuel saying he was going for one reason but really going for another was a God-authorized deception. You'd punish your younger kids for it.

    Two modern examples I'm okay with, of how we do this subterfuge today:

    1. Brother Andrew's, The God Smuggler, illegally providing bibles to believers in communist nations.

    2. A missionary I've known for many decades who works in southern Europe and travels frequently into northern Africa under the guise of business but actually supports pockets of persecuted believers.

    I guess we'd call it "working the system".

    Rob
     
    #4 Deacon, Dec 13, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2015
  5. BrandonA

    BrandonA New Member

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    That's the first thing I thought of. God orders us to honor government (Romans 14), but when that gov't is blatantly guilty of injustice and active blockage of His major goals on earth, he's willing to work around them.

    Massive can of worms, of course, for the immature Christian. Gotta be very careful, and led by the Holy Spirit.
     
    #5 BrandonA, Dec 15, 2015
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  6. MNJacob

    MNJacob Member

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    How is this deception?

    Why did Samuel go to Bethlehem, to sacrifice to the Lord and to anoint the next king.

    We forget Samuel's role, he is the last judge at the same time that Saul is the first king. The elders of the visit are trembling at his arrival. They don't know what he is there for either. While the sacrifice is a secondary purpose, it is still valid.
     
    #6 MNJacob, Dec 16, 2015
  7. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    This episode provides an excellent example of contrasting images.

    A righteous heart (Samuel and David) and a deceptive heart (Saul and Michael)

    The LORD encourages Samuel to mislead Saul regarding the purpose of his visit.

    Contrast the motivations of Saul and his daughter, Michael.

    Saul is fearful and murderously angry, driven by ‘an evil spirit from the LORD’.

    Michael, besides the fact that (1) she uses an idol to deceive Saul’s attendants and (2) that she says David is ill, (3) she also says that David threatened her. The three strikes – she’s out!

    She doesn’t follow David into exile, staying under her father’s protection and later is ashamed at David’s public display of worship and humility before the LORD.

    Application: Follow the LORD and you will walk in his steps.

    Rob
     
    #7 Deacon, Dec 16, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2015
  8. beameup

    beameup Member

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    Seems appropriate to bring a little food with you on your journey. Obviously, this 4 legged "offering" was to be eaten. Perhaps the Lord was just reminding Samuel of yet another aspect of his trip. Jesus often knew that his words would be "misunderstood" and "misinterpreted", but went ahead and spoke them anyways. Was Jesus being "deceitful"?
     
    #8 beameup, Dec 17, 2015
  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I have not read this thread, but this topic has been recycled several times. Scripture teaches we are not to lie, deceive, be a false witness. Yet, we can find passages where God seems to advocate using deception to protect His chosen ones.

    The distinctive is lying for our own advantage (a no no) or lying to protect God's chosen, (acceptable when authorized by God.) Like a soldier under orders who my deceive the enemy without violating God's command.

    Always remember anyone can rationalize a "good" reason for lying, i.e. Bill Clinton said he lied to protect his family (but less trusting folks think it was to protect his political viability.) It is never "right" to do wrong to get a chance to do right, the ends do not justify the means.

    Do not let a verse that has someone acting under God's direction in order to protect God's chosen be used to justify (rationalize) "little white lies."
     
    #9 Van, Dec 18, 2015
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