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Romans 9-15

Internet Theologian

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Technically circumcision vs. uncircumcision as a "rite", within the realm of ethnic jews (implied...part of National Israel...seed of abraham...etc)...
De
17 Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God....

24 For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” as it is written.
That's prior to his argument in verse 29. He is showing the inadequacy of ones ethnicity, specifically of being a natural Jew. He climaxes that argument in 29. Jesus of course taught the same in John 8. Note verse 37. The Middletown article is their argument but this passage is a strong case for the OP and things discussed in this thread. I believe it undoes their argument.
 

Iconoclast

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A

Please take the time and read this and let me know what you think...

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/reformed/israelaf.htm
I've seen that site before but being that you did the work to come up with the link to offer I will look at it and I'll go over it when I stop for the night still driving right now but in the meantime I'd like you to also look at the verses that were offered in the in the preceding posts
 

Iconoclast

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Groups, not individuals....God uses people in this Chapter but is relating it to nations....like Jacob would be Israelites and Esau would be the Edomites....

God chose the People of Abraham...not Egyptians, nor the Amorites, but He chose the Jews.

And when I read predestination I don't see individuals I see Either the Church or Israel was predestined or elected to be the Body of People (although I understand the individuals make up the group). It's like saying ok...I want to be a Canadian, but must happen? Ok, boom I'm Canadian...and come to find out...God predestined all Canadians to live on Mars after the earth is destroyed. SO in predestination, regardless of the individual, Anyone who was a Canadian at the end of this age was going to Live on Mars because God ordained it before Canada was a nation.

Same thing for Isreal and the Church.

God ordained Israel to be His chosen People. God ordained the Church to be His Chosen people.

He ordained them to be One in Christ.

And Those who are In Christ will receive the blessings God ordained in the Kingdom of God from before Time began.

He didn't predestine people. He Predestined the Church to be The Body and Bride of Christ.

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk
 

Iconoclast

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I've seen that site before but being that you did the work to come up with the link to offer I will look at it and I'll go over it when I stop for the night still driving right now but in the meantime I'd like you to also look at the verses that were offered in the in the preceding posts

So I look at the article by Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum he does a good job picking out verses speaking of OT Israel.
Before the cross obviously the scriptures would speak of national Israel as they were entrusted with the scriptures and had been singled out from all other nations;
rom3. What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

amos3
2 You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.


deut7
6
For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

7 The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

8 But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

The promises were made to them in large measure, so it is no surprise that the references looking back address that nation..

Now what I also notice is many passages glossed over and completely ignored...in his list
AF offers Eph 2:12 and he offers this comment;
The “commonwealth of Israel” is contrasted with the Gentiles and with the “one new man” which is the Church
.
Well now, let's look a little closer.
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit

Verse 12 is showing how before the cross gentiles were for the most part non covenant people and outside of the promises the nation of Israel were given.....gentiles before the cross were;and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

His contrast is false....the contrast was gentiles before the cross and Israel.
The contrast is NOT BETWEEN Israel and the Church.....

The rest of chapter two shows one new man In Christ.....not two separate men, not jew and gentile contrasted but what he does say is this;

In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit
I will do more in this next post, I do not want to be cut -off;
 

Iconoclast

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pt 2;
AF says;
Hebrews 11:22

An historical reference to the Israel of the Exodus
This is completely false-
Let's look.....
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

This section is NOT SPEAKING of OT Israel in the first Exodus at all...in fact it is in direct contrast to OT Israel as the writer to Hebrews says here;
18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:

20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:

21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:)

he says they have not come to the earthly mount, but the heavenly Zion and Jerusalem.....big difference.
 

Iconoclast

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pt3

Acts 1:6

The disciples ask, “Lord, dost thou at this time restore the

kingdom to Israel?” Obviously, the disciples had ethnic Israel and not the Church in mind in this context.
Yes before Pentecost they did not get it...after Pentecost they still did not get it, Peter had to be instructed by seeing the vision of the unclean animals being called clean....
The Kingdom was promised to Israel in the OT.....When the King came they rejected Him,
The King let's them know they are rejected....mt21:43.
If they were thinking right they would have had the church in mind.....
This pattern was repeated

acts 13;
16 Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.

17 The God of this people of Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an high arm brought he them out of it.

18 And about the time of forty years suffered he their manners in the wilderness.

19 And when he had destroyed seven nations in the land of Chanaan, he divided their land to them by lot.

20 And after that he gave unto them judges about the space of four hundred and fifty years, until Samuel the prophet.

21 And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years.

22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave their testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

25 And as John fulfilled his course, he said, Whom think ye that I am? I am not he. But, behold, there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feet I am not worthy to loose.

26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.
32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,

33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.

38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;

41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.

They rejected it as their fathers did and now paul quotes from Isaiah 49, which you have ignored as well as those like AF...who speak of historic national Israel....
45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.

46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
 

Iconoclast

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pt4
Acts 2:22

Peter is addressing an unbelieving Jewish audience and states, “Ye men of Israel.” Contextually, this could hardly be the Church.

Sure he is and within a few minutes these unbelieving Men of Israel were indeed the church,lol....were they saved and not a part of the "church"....?

Acts 2:36

This is the same audience as the above reference.

yes and the same result...they were the church once they were In Christ.
 
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Iconoclast

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So Jon.....I have one for you;
http://kimriddlebarger.squarespace....nialism-101-jesus-christ-the-true-israel.html

In Isaiah 41:8-9, the prophet spoke of a future restoration of Israel in these terms. “But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend; you whom I took from the ends of the earth, and called from its farthest corners, saying to you, `You are my servant, I have chosen you and not cast you off.'” The same promise is reiterated in the next chapter of Isaiah (42:1-7), when the LORD declares of his servant, “I am the Lord; I have called you in righteousness; I will take you by the hand and keep you; I will give you as a covenant for the people, a light for the nations”( v. 6). Isaiah continues to speak of this servant in chapters 44 (vv. 1-2) and 45 (v. 4).

Dispensationalists, given their so-called "literal hermeneutic," are bound to interpret such passages literally, thereby assign the fulfillment of these prophecies of Isaiah to a future earthly millennium in which Israel co-exists with Gentiles under the reign of the Davidic king (See Walvoord, The Millennial Kingdom, 302-304; and Pentecost, Things to Come, 503-508). In effect, this amounts to the restoration of the monarchy as Jesus takes his place on David's royal throne and rules the nations from this restored Israel.

But is this how the New Testament interprets these messianic prophecies regarding the servant of the Lord? Who is this servant of the Lord? It is the nation of Israel, or is it Jesus, Israel’s Messiah?

In order to answer this questions, we must see that the gospel writers interpret these prophecies from Isaiah as fulfilled in the messianic mission of Jesus. First, in Matthew 12:15-21, for example, when Jesus withdrew from the crowds who had followed him, Matthew reports that this event fulfilled what had been spoken in Isaiah the prophet. This event serves to demonstrate that Jesus is the true servant of the Lord.Second, as Jesus cast out demons and healed the sick, Matthew saw in this the fulfillment of Isaiah’s prophecies of a suffering servant who would take upon himself our infirmities and carry our diseases (Matthew 8:17 with Isaiah 53:4).Third, in Luke’s gospel, Luke speaks of both Israel (cf. Luke 1:54) and David as the servant of God (Luke 1:69). Yet in Acts, Luke pointedly speaks of Jesus as the servant of God (Acts 3:13). After his crucifixion, God raised Jesus from the dead so that people everywhere might be called to repentance (3:26).Fourth, when the Ethiopian eunuch hears a reading from Isaiah 53:7-8 and asks Philip about whom this prophecy refers, Luke tells us that Philip informed the Ethiopian that this passage does indeed refer to Jesus (Acts 8:34-35).

But this is not all that is in view here. In Hosea 11:1, Hosea predicted a time when “Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.” But in Matthew 2:15, the evangelist tells us that Hosea’s prophecy was fulfilled when his parents took Jesus to Egypt to protect him from Herod’s “slaughter of the innocents” (Matthew 2:3-18). Yet, after Herod had died, God called Jesus and his family to return to Nazareth. Matthew takes a passage from Hosea, which clearly refers to Israel, and tells his reader that this passage is now fulfilled in Jesus Christ! He does this to prove to his largely Jewish audience that Jesus is the servant of the Lord, foretold throughout the Old Testament (especially Isaiah).

By now it should be clear that according to many New Testament writers, Jesus is the true servant, the true son and the true Israel of God. Recall too that it was Isaiah who spoke of Israel and the descendants of Abraham as the people of God. It as through the seed of Abraham that the nations of the earth would be blessed.
 

Iconoclast

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Jon...here is another for you;
http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/israel.shtml
The destiny of the Church (the Body of Christ, composed of individual Gentiles & Jews) is not a "Priesthood" Kingdom located in what we call the "Holy Land". Exodus 19:5-6 assures Israel
that they will become a "Holy Nation" and a "Kingdom of Priests".
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance (irrevocable). Romans 11:29
"As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes [Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc.]" Romans 11:28

"blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
And so all Israel shall be saved"
and "God is able to graft them in again."

This is referred to as "hyper-dispensationalism" by some?

"Be not highminded, but fear" and "take heed lest he also spare not thee"
from tony warren;
1st Peter 2:9-10
  • "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal Priesthood, an Holy Nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into His marvelous light:
  • which in time past were not a people, but are now The People OF God: which hath not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy."
God had always declared that national Israel was the chosen generation (the family of God), the kingdom of Priests, the Holy Nation, the peculiar (purchased or acquired) people of God. And corporately or visibly they were Israel. But more importantly, a remnant of them were spiritually the Israel of God. Because Exodus and 1st Peter are talking about one and the same Israel of God. The Promises to Israel in Exodus, are to "The Israel of God." Compare 1st Peter with Exodus chapter 19:6 which speaks of the Covenant with Israel, and you will see what Israel is in view. That is why Paul asked the rhetorical question, "was the word of God made of none effect?" The answer is no, because these promises to Israel will be kept. But not with the literal nation, with a remnant of the nation (of whom Paul declares He is one) chosen by Grace. So while it may appear to many to be talking about promises to the literal nation of Israel, it was actually a promise to those who have part in the New Covenant of Grace, the true Israel, Christ. Those of the Old Covenant were saved by the very same Grace, through the very same faith, looking 'forward' to the finished work of Christ. Those in the New Covenant are saved by Grace, looking 'backward' on the finished work of Christ. Both saved the same way, having the same faith, but approaching Christ from different directions. They all have part in the very same 'one body,' the holy nation of Jews whose Jerusalem is from above and not of this world (Galatians 4:26; Hebrews 12:22). The very same Holy Nation 1st Peter tells us 'all true believers' enter into.

The question always boils down to if we are going to receive God's Word, or are we going to detour and follow after the traditions of our teachers or leaders. In whom do we put our trust? God's Word, or man's word? When we consider God's precepts, it soon becomes abundantly clear that the Israel of promise, is an elect 'remnant' people, not a physical nation.
 

Iconoclast

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more from tony warren;
Confusing Romans Chapter 11 (and so all Israel shall be saved)

Another chapter that is almost always quoted by those who believe that all (or nearly all) of the literal nation Israel will be saved in the future, is Romans chapter 11. It is a chapter which is often misunderstood, and that is seldom examined 'carefully,' or compared with what God has said has been fulfilled in Scripture. This chapter deals with the visible 'representation' of Covenant Israel (both old and new), and pictures it symbolically as the olive tree. The Jewish people are signified as the natural branches that grow from that olive tree. In other words, they were the visible Covenant people of Israel before the cross. We read that some of the branches of this tree (some of the Jewish people of Covenant Israel) were broken off, and some branches from the Gentile nations were grafted into this Covenant tree. This signifying a New Covenant Israel representation, which is now made up of both Jews and Gentiles alike. i.e., one body.
Notice that God is making the distinction between the natural Olive Tree branches (the original Covenant people Israel), and the wild olive tree branches (sons of God from the Gentile nations) who now are grafted into this New Covenant 'along with' the branches of Israel not broken off. It's very important to understand this distinction here, because it proves beyond a doubt that the Old Covenant Israel representation has now become a New Covenant with Israel, made up of Jews and Gentiles alike. And this is just as God had promised of old. He would make a New Covenant with Israel.
Going about this systematically, we see one tree 'represents' Covenant Israel, and the other represents the Gentile people. Obviously, if the tree signifies Covenant Israel and the branches are the Jewish people of Covenant Israel, then when the Gentiles branches are moved from their tree, and are grafted into the Covenant Israel Tree with the natural branches, they then become part of that same Covenant Israel. To say anything less is nonsensical, and is to dabble in rank confusion. They've left their Gentile tree, and enter into "Covenant Israel" along with the Jewish branches that were not broken off (The Apostles Paul, John, etc.) in God's judgment. Where is the mystery? It's revealed.
By the same token, those branches broken off (Jewish people who were not saved, and were blinded) they are not Israel in God's eyes. In the Biblical vernacular, they have been cut off from their people. That is the same picture that we saw in Romans chapter 9 where God delineated that, "they are not all Israel, which are of Israel." In some theologians' minds they are, but that is not the way God sees it. Some have been cut off from the Olive Tree (Covenant Israel representation) and are in spiritual blindness, while some Gentiles have been grafted in that they may also sit at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Matthew 8:11), being loosed from 'their' blindness and made to see. Gentile Christians now have citizenship, and are part of the community of the Israel. This includes any Jewish Christians today. Together we make up this New Covenant Tree, the commonwealth or citizenship of Israel. As indeed God so clearly expressed in the book of Ephesians.
Ephesians 2:11-20
  • "Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called uncircumcision by that which is called the circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
  • That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the Covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
  • But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
  • For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
  • Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
  • And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
  • And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
  • For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
  • Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
  • And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;"
Where once we were Gentiles, strangers and aliens (noncitizens) of Israel, we are now fellow citizens, no longer foreigners or strangers from the Covenants of Israel, but fellow saints. One must then ask, just how much clearer can we expect it to get? In Christ there is one salvation program for both the Gentiles and the Jews. It is pride, political agenda, vain genealogies, and Premillennial tradition that promotes the idea that God has two separate salvation plans, and two separate chosen people. But this is utter nonsense. There was one sacrifice, one time for taking away the sins of Israel, one olive tree, one congregation of God, one body, one people, and one deliverance. ..All of which was instituted and established at the cross.
Some facts to consider in this illustration of the Olive Tree.
  1. It unambiguously shows that this 'cannot' represent the literal nation of Israel. If it did, that would mean Gentiles were leaving their literal lands from the time of the cross to today, to go live physically in the land of Israel. We clearly understand that is untenable. i.e., we're not being grafted into the literal earthly or worldly middle eastern land. We are being grafted into the congregation of God, the visible representation of 'Covenant Israel,' which is not a physical nation nor land, but a 'corporate' (external) people of God. A congregation once 'represented' by a nation, but now represented by all nations called in one body of Christ.
  2. Likewise, the tree cannot be the Spiritual indivisible Israel of God, of which all are saved. The reason being, they could not be broken off if this Tree represented that Israel. i.e., perseverance of the Saints or the indivisible body cannot have anyone lose salvation. So this tree corporately represents the children of God, for it symbolizes Covenant Israel both on the Old Covenant, and the New Covenant side of the cross.
  3. We should not lose sight of the 'important' fact that this is the 'same' Tree of Covenant Israel, but in a New Covenant Israel dispensation, which allows Gentiles to be grafted into it (as read in Ephesians chapter 2). It is important for us to understand what it "cannot" represent, so we may better comprehend what it must represent. Because this is not a new tree, it is the same root, the same trunk, the same tree, but with some branches broken off, and some Gentile branches grafted in. i.e., illustrating the continuity of the Covenant, which is so well documented in the doctrines of 'Covenant Theology.'
So, the Tree cannot be symbolic of the physical nation Israel, and it cannot be symbolic of Spiritual Israel. Thus it is symbolic of external Covenant Israel. The corporate congregation. That is the only Israel of God that can have people cut off, and also people not cut off, but grafted in. Many in the congregations today (like many in the congregation of Israel then) are not truly saved, and will be cut off. Indeed, in verse eighteen of Romans chapter eleven, God warns the New Covenant Gentiles not to boast. In boasting, they are deluding themselves as to responsibility for their Salvation. If they are deceived into thinking that they are better than the Jewish people who fell, then they as a corporate body, will suffer the same judgment. God assures us, they don't bear the Root, but the Root bears them. In other words, we have nothing to boast about, for Christ (the Root) is our help, our strength, the author and finisher of our faith, and we cannot take one ounce of credit for being better than the Jewish people were. For this is the same pride and arrogance that brought down the Old Testament congregation Israel, and will bring down New Testament congregation Israel, if they follow that same dangerous path.
I have covered this all in the "Exposition of Romans Chapter Eleven," so I won't go over all this here. Briefly, the controversial verses that many people either misunderstand, or choose to read into them, are generally verses 25 to 27:
 

Iconoclast

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Groups, not individuals....God uses people in this Chapter but is relating it to nations....like Jacob would be Israelites and Esau would be the Edomites....

God chose the People of Abraham...not Egyptians, nor the Amorites, but He chose the Jews.

And when I read predestination I don't see individuals I see Either the Church or Israel was predestined or elected to be the Body of People (although I understand the individuals make up the group). It's like saying ok...I want to be a Canadian, but must happen? Ok, boom I'm Canadian...and come to find out...God predestined all Canadians to live on Mars after the earth is destroyed. SO in predestination, regardless of the individual, Anyone who was a Canadian at the end of this age was going to Live on Mars because God ordained it before Canada was a nation.

Same thing for Isreal and the Church.

God ordained Israel to be His chosen People. God ordained the Church to be His Chosen people.

JON....Israel was a national physical people...some of whom God saved.
There is no such "entity as the church" for God to ordain....
What is the church??? a building? or is it made up of living stones , each single individual believer.
There is individual election unto salvation or how do we have an assembly as no man seeks God no not one?
The language or ordination speaks of individual gentiles being grafted in as jews in mass reject Jesus
I posted acts 13 earlier;
Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

He ordained them to be One in Christ.
who was ordained?

And Those who are In Christ will receive the blessings God ordained in the Kingdom of God from before Time began.
Apart from election there are no believers.

He didn't predestine people
.

You are quite mistaken here;
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

Earlier you used the term foreknowledge incorrectly , that leads to this kind of error.

He Predestined the Church to be The Body and Bride of Christ.
If individuals are not predestined according to you.....how is there any church to begin with???
 

Iconoclast

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It was intentional (ordained of God) so that salvation may be offered to the Gentiles.

And that our salvation would provoke them to Jealousy at the end of this age (and really all throughout the "Church Age").

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from L.R.Shelton;
Also the kingdom must be now in God's child, purchased by Christ, for Col 1:12-13 tells us when God saves us we are made "partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: and have been delivered from the power of darkness [the spiritual wicked kingdom of Satan] and translated into the kingdom of his dear Son." Yes, this kingdom is now, established in the hearts of God's children, and Christ has been crowned King and Lord of their lives. Let us go further. There are those who build much of their argument for an earthly kingdom of 1000 years sometime in the future upon the assumption that the "kingdom of God" as spoken of in Mark, Luke and John, and the "kingdom of heaven" as spoken of in Matthew are two separate kingdoms; the kingdom of God being a heavenly kingdom and the kingdom of heaven being an earthly kingdom. One has God the Father as Ruler; the other has God the Son as Ruler. But this argument is wrongly dividing of the Word of Truth, because if you will compare them as we are going to do now, you will find that the Scriptures show conclusively that these two terms are used interchangeably. Compare Mat 11:12 where the expression"the kingdom of heaven" is used, and Luke 16:16 where the expression "the kingdom of God" is used; and you will find they are the same. "And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force." That's Matthew, now Luke: "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it." Listen now to a comparison between Mat 4:17 and Mark 1:1-14. "From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." And Mark: "Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye and believe the gospel. Again listen to a comparison between Mat 3, 5 and Luke 6:20. "Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." Now Luke: "Blessed are ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God." One more will suffice and yet there are many more. Compare Mat 13:31 with Mark 4:30-31. '"The kingdom of heaven is like unto a grain of mustard seed." Now Mark: "How shall we liken the kingdom of God...it is like a grain of mustard seed."
 

Iconoclast

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more L.R. Shelton;
In Peter's message on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2, preaching under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, he said that the prophecy of Christ sitting upon David's throne had been fulfilled. He said that Christ, then and there, was ruling and reigning upon the spiritual throne of David in the heavenlies. "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; he seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ" (Acts 2:29-36).

This states without contradiction, that the physical throne of David was a type and a shadow of the spiritual throne of the greater David, the Lord Jesus Christ, and this throne is an everlasting throne, not an earthly just 1000 years.

Every promise in the Old Testament where the future throne of David is mentioned (2Sam 7:16; Pss 89:3-4; Isa 9:6-7, 55:3; Jer 33:1-2), and every Scripture in the New Testament confirms Peter's statement of Christ ruling and reigning upon David's spiritual throne in heaven.
 

Iconoclast

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Jon
When if ever has these promised curses came upon national Israel????
from Deut28;
45 Moreover all these curses shall come upon thee, and shall pursue thee, and overtake thee, till thou be destroyed; because thou hearkenedst not unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which he commanded thee:

46 And they shall be upon thee for a sign and for a wonder, and upon thy seed for ever.

47 Because thou servedst not the Lord thy God with joyfulness, and with gladness of heart, for the abundance of all things;

48 Therefore shalt thou serve thine enemies which the Lord shall send against thee, in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in want of all things: and he shall put a yoke of iron upon thy neck, until he have destroyed thee.

49 The Lord shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand;

50 A nation of fierce countenance, which shall not regard the person of the old, nor shew favour to the young:

51 And he shall eat the fruit of thy cattle, and the fruit of thy land, until thou be destroyed: which also shall not leave thee either corn, wine, or oil, or the increase of thy kine, or flocks of thy sheep, until he have destroyed thee.

52 And he shall besiege thee in all thy gates, until thy high and fenced walls come down, wherein thou trustedst, throughout all thy land: and he shall besiege thee in all thy gates throughout all thy land, which the Lord thy God hath given thee.

53 And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the Lord thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee:

54 So that the man that is tender among you, and very delicate, his eye shall be evil toward his brother, and toward the wife of his bosom, and toward the remnant of his children which he shall leave:

55 So that he will not give to any of them of the flesh of his children whom he shall eat: because he hath nothing left him in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee in all thy gates.

56 The tender and delicate woman among you, which would not adventure to set the sole of her foot upon the ground for delicateness and tenderness, her eye shall be evil toward the husband of her bosom, and toward her son, and toward her daughter,

57 And toward her young one that cometh out from between her feet, and toward her children which she shall bear: for she shall eat them for want of all things secretly in the siege and straitness, wherewith thine enemy shall distress thee in thy gates.

58 If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, The Lord Thy God;

59 Then the Lord will make thy plagues wonderful, and the plagues of thy seed, even great plagues, and of long continuance, and sore sicknesses, and of long continuance.

60 Moreover he will bring upon thee all the diseases of Egypt, which thou wast afraid of; and they shall cleave unto thee.

61 Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will the Lord bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed.

62 And ye shall be left few in number, whereas ye were as the stars of heaven for multitude; because thou wouldest not obey the voice of the Lord thy God.

63 And it shall come to pass, that as the Lord rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the Lord will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it.

64 And the Lord shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.

65 And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, neither shall the sole of thy foot have rest: but the Lord shall give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind:

66 And thy life shall hang in doubt before thee; and thou shalt fear day and night, and shalt have none assurance of thy life:

67 In the morning thou shalt say, Would God it were even! and at even thou shalt say, Would God it were morning! for the fear of thine heart wherewith thou shalt fear, and for the sight of thine eyes which thou shalt see.
 

Internet Theologian

Well-Known Member
pt4


Sure he is and within a few minutes these unbelieving Men of Israel were indeed the church,lol....were they saved and not a part of the "church"....?



yes and the same result...they were the church once they were In Christ.
No offense to middletown, others, or JonShaff but the arguments presented in the document are just off track.
 

kyredneck

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All that die have not the plague, and all that
perish eternally are not guilty of the same profligate sins.The covetous are
excluded from the kingdom of God no less severely than fornicators,
idolaters, adulterers, and thieves, 1 Corinthians 6:9,10.

How do you get that from this?:

9 have ye not known that the unrighteous the reign of God shall not inherit? be not led astray; neither whoremongers, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor sodomites,
10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, the reign of God shall inherit. 1 Cor 6 YLT

Is it an accepted translation or your own rendition? Whatever it is it's awful.
 

Internet Theologian

Well-Known Member
How do you get that from this?:

9 have ye not known that the unrighteous the reign of God shall not inherit? be not led astray; neither whoremongers, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor sodomites,
10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, the reign of God shall inherit. 1 Cor 6 YLT

Is it an accepted translation or your own rendition? Whatever it is it's awful.
John Owen: https://books.google.com/books?id=Y...t guilty of the same profligate sins.&f=false
 
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