Featured Christians Carrying Concealed Weapons - Falwell vs. Piper

The simple fact is that the more people are carrying guns, the more likely we are to have two people drawing off against each other or someone just whipping out their gun in some deluded state and killing someone. We have trained police officers shooting innocent people because the officer mistakes a cell phone for a gun. What will your untrained student who just spent two days without sleep cramming for an exam do?

 

This is a prime use of the question begging fallacy

 

Exactly my point!!! Well said.

It will be mass chaos and a whole lot of folks being charged for murder and claiming it was all a mistake.

 

Gentlemen - you *already* have a large number of people legally carrying concealed in a number of states. In some states, carrying openly, not concealed. Where are your stories of people drawing off against each other, or umtrained students?

I swear y'all sound like republicans talking about Obama declaring martial law, or how marijuana is gonna ruin Colorado.

Huh. Apparently I'm a libertarian, and just realized it.

Happy New Year!

 

It's not just guns but automobiles as well - don't forget the afluenza kid who ran over and killed 4 people.

Oh, he was from so rich a family that he didn't know right from wrong...

HankD

 

I guess you never watch the news or read any newspapers?

 

So tell me, what percentage of murders are committed by people with concealed carry licenses?

 

"Watch the news"....how quaint.

I read the newspaper on Saturday and Sunday (gotta have those Sunday crosswords). Otherwise I get my news off of news reader feeds off the internet.

I would say the burden of proof is on you to show how many conceal carry people have shot other people. I know of two instances in the past year; there could be more, otherwise, that's nothing compared to the number of criminal shootings that occur.

 

Reminds me of when CNN Carol Costello cross-examined a Black Lives Matter protester who claimed Islamophobia was "running rampant" at airports and "so many people are taken off their flights and harrassed". Ms. Costello basically called out the protester to provide statistics and she couldn't.

Go to the 3:02 mark and play forward.

 

<sarcasm tag>No, I only get whatever news is posted on this message board.</sarcasm tag>

If it's that prevalent, start posting the links. Otherwise, you're just a fear-monger.

 

But it's the wild west out there. Blood is running in the streets.

Well, except for Jacksonville. All of the flooding from global climate change washed the blood away.

Biggrin

 

I rarely respond now days. I want to make sure that I am responding and not reacting.
There is a difference between slapping or threat of life.
Some say that it is contextually incorrect for Jesus to tell his disciples to sell their cloak and buy a sword if they do not own one and then tells Peter to put away his sword.
Peter had earlier been told to make sure he had a sword and that the Lord's time had come. Jesus did not want Peter interfering in what he had just told the disciples about what was taking place. A little earlier, the command Jesus gave the disciples was not for hunting (spears, traps, slingshots and arrows were for hunting) but for self defense. A sword at that time was for offense or defense.
To say that Jesus would want us to not do anything to protect ourselves or family from evil by using Luke 14:26 is naive at best. The Greek word for hate is misos, which means to "love less". One can love and defend his family and neighbor a whole lot and still love Jesus more.

I will defend myself and my family and neighbors. I do not intend to kill anyone but if what it takes to stop the threat results in the death of the perpetrator then so be it. My intent was to stop the threat and deadly force will be used as a last resort.
Gods Word does not contradict itself. Man, however, makes it seem to do just that. In order that man can continue to have his own beliefs and justify his sinful nature. Just like taking a few verses and acting as if others don't exist in the whole. That is why I believe every person has an opportunity for salvation and not only a lucky few.
Just saying.

 

Why does that only mean a handgun? Again, re-read my posts, I'm not saying someone doesn't have the opportunity to defend themselves. Running is, as always, the most effective solution...even concealed handgun classes teach this.

 

Anyone teaching this in CCL classes should refund those folks their money. I can also tell you that it is not common.

 

Since we've gotten a bit off the OP, which has been fine this is a free flowing debate, I will just point out that my agreement here is with Dr Piper. Mr Falwell Jr's position is untenable biblically imho, particularly his point about "ending them Muslims."

We can continue to have a lively, and healthy as far as I've seen it, debate on this issue, but I suspect after another 50 pages we'd still be in our positions. My position is best summarized in my above points.

Vengeance is not ours. It is, ultimately, the Lord's. The model of the new covenant is peacefulness with others and giving of ourselves in the face of persecution and personal harms as I read the NT.

Personally, I'm thankful for the robust discussion here and several posters have brought up salient details in their points and it has continued to shape my thinking on this. I'll continue to chime in, but the thread seems to be heading around that dark corner too many get to. Thanks to all the posters for the engagement.

 

I would have been court-martialed for treason taking this advice when I was in the military (not today though, they give you your back pay, especially if you father is a Muslim).

 

No one knows Tom. It could work for good or bad.What if the student comes to school carrying, arrives at school and encounters a Jihadist mowing people down with an AK47 , the student takes a shot and brings the Jihadist down, it's possible.

 

"What if" can be useful when an actual "what if" has happened, such as the above example. However if the "what if" is mere conjecture, IE, has not happened, then it becomes a straw man being grasped by the one who cannot support their opinion by logic; like "--the untrained student who just spent two days cramming w/o sleep --".

I have a grandson, who at about 6yo, loved the what ifs; what if your nose was your big toe; what if you had three arms; what if I were batman; & on & on ad infinitum.

The majority of the what ifs concerning the 2nd are of the caliber of my g-son's questions.

 

Take your pick - these aren't what ifs. https://www.facebook.com/GunsSaveLives.net

HankD

 

Wrong, the 'perpetrators' were always religious entities (almost always the Jews in the NT) oftentimes using/manipulating 'the government' and the masses as a means for their attacks.

Examples:

1 Now when morning was come, all the chief priests and the elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:
2 and they bound him, and led him away, and delivered him up to Pilate the governor.
20 Now the chief priests and the elders persuaded the multitudes that they should ask for Barabbas, and destroy Jesus. Mt 27

12 And when they were assembled with the elders, and had taken counsel, they gave much money unto the soldiers,
13 saying, Say ye, His disciples came by night, and stole him away while we slept.
14 And if this come to the governor`s ears, we will persuade him, and rid you of care. Mt 28

2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the hour cometh, that whosoever killeth you shall think that he offereth service unto God. Jn 16

.....ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay Acts 2:23

1 But Saul, yet breathing threatening and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
2 and asked of him letters to Damascus unto the synagogues, that if he found any that were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. Acts 9

23 And when many days were fulfilled, the Jews took counsel together to kill him:
24 but their plot became known to Saul. And they watched the gates also day and night that they might kill him: Acts 9

50 But the Jews urged on the devout women of honorable estate, and the chief men of the city, and stirred up a persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and cast them out of their borders. Acts 13

19 But there came Jews thither from Antioch and Iconium: and having persuaded the multitudes, they stoned Paul, and dragged him out of the city, supposing that he was dead. Acts 14

5 But the Jews, being moved with jealousy, took unto them certain vile fellows of the rabble, and gathering a crowd, set the city on an uproar; and assaulting the house of Jason, they sought to bring them forth to the people.
13 But when the Jews of Thessalonica had knowledge that the word of God was proclaimed of Paul at Beroea also, they came thither likewise, stirring up and troubling the multitudes. Acts 17

12 But when Gallio was proconsul of Achaia, the Jews with one accord rose up against Paul and brought him before the judgment-seat, Acts 18

3 And when he had spent three months there, and a plot was laid against him by Jews as he was about to set sail for Syria, he determined to return through Macedonia.
19 serving the Lord with all lowliness of mind, and with tears, and with trials which befell me by the plots of the Jews; Acts 20

11 And coming to us, and taking Paul`s girdle, he bound his own feet and hands, and said, Thus saith the Holy Spirit, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.
27 And when the seven days were almost completed, the Jews from Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the multitude and laid hands on him, Acts 21

12 And when it was day, the Jews banded together, and bound themselves under a curse, saying that they would neither eat nor drink till they had killed Paul.
13 And they were more than forty that made this conspiracy. Acts 23

1 Festus therefore, having come into the province, after three days went up to Jerusalem from Caesarea.
2 And the chief priests and the principal men of the Jews informed him against Paul; and they besought him,
3 asking a favor against him, that he would send for him to Jerusalem; laying a plot to kill him on the way.
7 And when he was come, the Jews that had come down from Jerusalem stood round about him, bringing against him many and grievous charges which they could not prove;
24 And Festus saith, King Agrippa, and all men who are here present with us, ye behold this man, about whom all the multitude of the Jews made suit to me, both at Jerusalem and here, crying that he ought not to live any longer. Acts 25

17 And it came to pass, that after three days he called together those that were the chief of the Jews: and when they were come together, he said unto them, I, brethren, though I had done nothing against the people, or the customs of our fathers, yet was delivered prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans:
18 who, when they had examined me, desired to set me at liberty, because there was no cause of death in me.
19 But when the Jews spake against it, I was constrained to appeal unto Caesar; not that I had aught whereof to accuse my nation. Acts 28

....and there's many many more....

Foxe's Book Of Martyrs, same thing. By far and away those killed were persecuted by 'the church', and most of those was over water baptism.