Would the Continuation of the Gift ofProphecy Challenge Sola Scriptura?

TCassidy · Jan 7, 2016

agedman said:
When Paul states that he is giving what HE thinks and states that it is NOT from the Lord, then that puts Paul's statement as OPINION.

Wrong again. You continue to err not knowing the scriptures.

Paul was writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Who cannot lie. Paul was saying that the new revelation he was giving under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit was something the Lord did not address during his earthly ministry. It was new, inspired, inerrant, scripture truth.

TCassidy · Jan 7, 2016

agedman said:
I don't know what God didn't tell you. If you don't listen to him, and rely upon all answers from the Scriptures, then who knows? Do you pray? Do you ever seek God's answer in prayer? Have you seen a soul saved that you prayed would come to know Christ as an answer to your prayer? Did you pray about the sickness and expect an answer?

What does any of this have to do with the continuation of the gift of prophecy? Having trouble staying on topic?

Martin Marprelate · Jan 7, 2016

a SATS prof said:
Whether I should give my $400 to Compassion International or another Christian charity.
Whether I should name my boy Bill or Sam.
Whether I should answer your picture post.
Whether I should Marry Christ Joyce or Christian Mary.

I have a word of prophecy for you.
The Lord has definitely told me that you should give your $400 to me. Wink

a SATS prof · Jan 7, 2016

TCassidy said:
In other words He forgot nothing.

Who you give your money to is a function of investigation, logic, and reason.

What you name your son is a decision between you and your wife. With your wife having the final say.

And whether or not you respond to my post is entirely up to you.

----------

ye do err not knowing the Scriptures -where did I hear that recently?

James 1:5, "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God"

Grudem is suggesting no more than that God reveals His will on particulars not covered by Scripture. Except he affirms He does so especially to some. You seem to be saying that I should not pray for guidance in your haste to be right --regardless.

Certainly I can investigate charities, but why will you deny that I should not look to God too in prayer?
PLease don't assert that I'm lying as you have of another good brother.

It seems that so many here just care about winning an argument!

TCassidy · Jan 7, 2016

a SATS prof said:
You seem to be saying that I should not pray for guidance in your haste to be right --regardless.

You seem to have seriously misunderstood fairly simple declarative sentences. The Holy Spirit certainly guides His own, but that guidance does not equate to the gift of prophecy.

Martin Marprelate · Jan 8, 2016

a SATS prof said:
James 1:5, "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God"

Grudem is suggesting no more than that God reveals His will on particulars not covered by Scripture. Except he affirms He does so especially to some. You seem to be saying that I should not pray for guidance in your haste to be right --regardless.

Certainly I can investigate charities, but why will you deny that I should not look to God too in prayer?

You are certainly right to ask God for wisdom in making decisions, but that is not the same as thinking that God has given you some infallible word outside of the Bible- and if it's not infallible and inerrant, what is the good of it? And if it is infallible and inerrant, how is it not on the same level as the Bible?

I wrote something on Cessationalism a while ago.
https://marprelate.wordpress.com/2012/09/28/cessationism-have-the-sign-gifts-ceased/

a SATS prof · Jan 8, 2016

Martin Marprelate said:
You are certainly right to ask God for wisdom in making decisions, but that is not the same as thinking that God has given you some infallible word outside of the Bible- and if it's not infallible and inerrant, what is the good of it? And if it is infallible and inerrant, how is it not on the same level as the Bible?

---

Hi Martin

What I began discussing is Grudem's comments on modern prophecy in his Systematic Theology. He asserts that modern prophecy is not normative!

I have no experience in the business except for a bad one when two "prophets" told our pastor that his beloved, missing dog had been stolen by satanists who had sacrificed it. A day later, the dog wandered home very much alive.

I am not thinking that God has given me an infallible word, and I make no claim of ever prophesying anything. BUT I will not reject what I think is God's leading because it not infallible.

What is the good of something not infallible & inerrant? How about your article you refer to? How about ALL the good stuff here which --as the article you wrote--is it not good even being subject to fallibility? Does it not have value even though it is not inerrant?

Why not direct your question to Paul who says prophecy is the greatest gift and that prophecy should not be despised, then says a prophet's words must be tested?

Paul did not say, "You all stop prophesying because it's not infallible"!

a SATS prof · Jan 8, 2016

TCassidy said:
You seem to have seriously misunderstood fairly simple declarative sentences. The Holy Spirit certainly guides His own, but that guidance does not equate to the gift of prophecy.

---

Perhaps it DOES IF His guidance is given through one for another!!

Perhaps your definition of prophecy is not infallible?

Or Perhaps you are infallible !

Oh, I know you must be , you must be right because one who disagrees with you cant' read even if he taught reading in secondary public schools for 35 yrs.- -pitiful

NT prophecy was not normative. Philip had four daughters who were prophetesses. But we have no Scripture from them do we. They said nothing which directs the modern Church's beliefs or behavior. None of Agabus' foretelling was doctrinal. Likewise the the only recorded messages of the prophets at Antioch concerned personal choices. You may be as defensive as you wish concerning Sola Scripture (with which I agree), but NT sort of prophecy is no challenge to it.

***Why don't you try to prove from Paul that prophecy in local churches was anything more than giving opinions on God's will on NON-NORMATIVE matters? Please do so in your next post on this thread.

And your proof is????????????????

I'll try ever so hard to read and understand it

TCassidy · Jan 8, 2016

a SATS prof said:
Perhaps your definition of prophecy is not infallible?

Isn't that the point? The gift of prophecy, the giving of infallible scripture, is no longer active.

a SATS prof · Jan 8, 2016

TCassidy said:
Isn't that the point? The gift of prophecy, the giving of infallible scripture, is no longer active.

---
Please share your proof that the gift of prophecy in the churches of Corinth and/or Rome and/or Ephesus was the giving of infallible Scripture. PLEASE share your proof!?Please?

Martin Marprelate · Jan 8, 2016

Hello SATS Prof,
The following is taken from my blog post.
I’d like to explain what I mean by the word, Cessationism.
1. I do not believe that all miracles have ceased today. Every time someone is saved it is a miracle of God’s power and grace, and He is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think. However, I do not believe that there are ‘workers of miracles’ (1 Cor. 12:10) today.

2. I believe that God sometimes heals today according to His will. I have some experience of this which I am happy to relate if anyone is interested. I think many people have testimonies of God healing in answer to prayer. However, I do not believe that there are miraculous ‘gifts of healing’ (1 Cor. 12:9) today.

3. I believe in prophetic ministry today. I believe that preaching is prophetic in that it ‘tells forth’ the words of God. I think it is the 2nd Helvetic Confession that declares that 'the preaching of the word of God is the word of God.' What I do not believe remains today is the gift of ‘foretelling’- seeing the future. I do not believe that anyone can bind the conscience of a Christian by anything outside the Bible. This I think is the important bit. You can believe that God has spoken to you on some point or other, or about something or other, and you are free to act upon it if you choose, but no one has the right to bind my conscience with anything other than the word of God as found in the Bible. In Acts 11:27 ff, Agabus makes a predictive prophesy which appears to have been universally received as truth and which bound the consciences of all the disciples in Antioch (vs. 29-30). I say that has finished.

What I understand as Cessationism is the belief that certain gifts which were given to the church were never intended to be continued indefinitely but were for the infancy of the Church. A parallel to this is God’s dealings with Israel in the wilderness. They received miraculous supplies of manna, water and quail; their feet did not swell and their shoes did not wear out. The day they crossed into Canaan, the manna ceased (Joshua 5:12) and the other items are not mentioned again, so I assume they did as well. I believe that the same principle applies in the N.T. Certain gifts were supplied to the infant church which were discontinued when it reached maturity.

If we look at the list of gifts listed in Eph 4:11, we see that the first gift is Apostles. I believe that there are no Apostles today. If you agree with me then you are a Cessationist because you agree that at least one of the gifts has now ceased. The qualifications for an apostle are listed in Acts 1:22- he must have seen the risen Christ. Therefore Paul asks, “Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?” (1 Cor 9:1). Later he describes himself as the last apostle (1 Cor 15:8). Therefore we conclude that there are no apostles today- not even C. J. Mahaney.

TCassidy · Jan 8, 2016

a SATS prof said:
Please share your proof

“If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him” (Deut. 18:22).

“But the prophet who prophesies peace will be recognized as one truly sent by the Lord only if his prediction comes true” (Jer. 28:9).

“When all this comes true - and it surely will - then they will know that a prophet has been among them.” (Ezek. 33:33).

“The Lord was with Samuel as he grew up, and he let none of his words fall to the ground. And all Israel from Dan to Beersheba recognized that Samuel was attested as a prophet of the Lord” (1 Sam 3:19).

“I declared the former things long ago and they went forth from My mouth, and I proclaimed them. Suddenly I acted, and they came to pass.… Therefore I declared them to you long ago, before they took place I proclaimed them to you, lest you should say, ‘My idol has done them, and my graven image and my molten image have commanded them’” (Isaiah 48:3, 5)

“For PROPHECY came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost” (2 Pt. 1:21).

2 Pet. 1:19 “We have also a more sure word of prophecy. ”God's message, became God's Word and had a purpose for the future. “Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying ...” (Mt. 1:22). God spoke it, by using the prophet's mouth--God's message and God's Word, but it was delivered by way of a human mouth. Prophecy is inspired speech! It is nothing less than the Word of God in spoken or written form.

In Ephesians 2:20, the New Testament apostles and prophets were foundational: “And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.” A foundation is laid only once to begin a building project. You do not keep laying a foundation. These men (*apostles and prophets) were foundational -- through them that we received the New Testament Scriptures for all generations.
The Bible makes it clear that a prophet is someone who speaks on God’s behalf to the people and there is no inaccuracy in his words. When the prophets of old got their message from God, it was perfect, free from any error. They spoke confidently knowing that what they said God would bring to pass.

“Behold, the former things have come to pass, And new things I declare; Before they spring forth I tell you of them” (Isa. 42:9) Because of God’s covenant relationship to the nation of Israel He specifically chose to speak to them from among their own.

“Remember the former things long past, for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things which have not been done… “ (Isaiah 46:9, 10).

prophet · Jan 8, 2016

agedman said:
I am not one who would be comfortable in the "cessation" camp, but am all for Texas secession.

Too often the closing of the cannon is used as some tree to hang hats upon, and the Scriptures do present that the gifts Paul discusses in Corinthian 13 would stop, but that such gifts would stop when that which is perfect comes.

Of course, there are those who consider the Bible as "that which is perfect" especially the KJV, and they would also need to acknowledge that such discussions as occurs in the "Bible versions" section of the BB would be unnecessary.

I do not hold that is the intent of Paul's comments, and so am not a cessation person.

That doesn't mean I go chasing after modern day "prophets," nor do I cast myself before charismatic utterances. That such occurrences are often fakers and charlatans does not discredit the truth of Scriptures any more than some other doctrinal matter is destroyed by the foolishness of humankind.

If the Lord brings to my heart and my mind some matter in which He desires to impress and imprint, then that is His business.

There is a sin that believers should be very careful in judgment. There is that rebuke given when one would attribute and condemn as something conjured by the enemy of believers but was actually the work and results done by the Holy Spirit. (Matthew 12).

I challenge the misuse of ICorinthians 13 to say that gifts cease.

1 Corinthians 13:8
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Was not Enoch a prophet, yet we possess very little of his prophecy...2 verses made the canon...
Do we have 120 years of Noah's words?
Has every dream, vision, revelation that every Seer, prophet, visionary has ever received from God, been recorded in our canon? No!
Most of the prophecies given to men have failed, they are no more available.

Ancient Hebrew, Koine Greek, and Latin have ceased, among other tongues.

The Mayans had solar cells and batteries, and a calendar that reached til 2012, but 500 years ago this knowledge was all lost.
How were the pyramids built?
This knowledge has gone away.

My ancestors lived in the forest until 100 years ago, or so, but now their methods of survival, especially the medicines, are being lost.

Knowledge will vanish away.

This is the reasonable explanation set in the context of smack-dab inbetween ch. 12 and ch. 14.

Not one word of the prophecy of all of the prophets at Corinth made it into the Canon, yet Paul admonished all to covet the best gift of prophecy.

Earnestly Contend

Martin Marprelate · Jan 8, 2016

prophet said:
I challenge the misuse of ICorinthians 13 to say that gifts cease.

OK, let us consider 1 Cor. 13:8. ‘Love never fails. But whether there are prophesies, they will fail (Gk. katargethesontai. Literally, ‘Be rendered useless’ or ‘be abolished’); whether there are tongues, they will cease.’ This seems rather clear to me, and those who would make the text mean that prophecies will not fail and ‘tongues’ will not cease have the burden of evidence on them. It is suggested that prophecies and tongues will indeed disappear, but not until our Lord’s second coming. What then of faith and hope, which are said to ‘abide’ along with love? ‘Hope that is seen is not hope’ (Rom. 8:24) and ‘Faith is…..the evidence of things not seen’ (Heb. 11:1). When the Lord Jesus returns, ‘every eye shall see Him’ (Rev. 1:7) and we shall have no need of faith or hope, so they will ‘abide’ only until then. Therefore prophecy and tongues must pass away before the Second Coming. When were they to end? The answer is in verse 10. ‘But when that which is “perfect” has come, then that which is in part will pass away.’ The Greek word teleios, translated ‘perfect,’ can also mean ‘complete’ or ‘mature’ (as it does in 1 Cor. 14:20). ‘Mature’ seems to be the best translation as Paul goes on to talk about childhood and adulthood. What he is saying is that the sign gifts were given in the infancy of the Church, but in its maturity they would not be needed and the Corinthians should prepare to leave them behind as they had the things of childhood.

There are several evidences that this is the correct interpretation. Firstly, the number of miraculous signs recorded in Acts begins to fall away after Chapter 19. Secondly, Hebrews 2:3-4 places ‘miracles and gifts’ in the past. Thirdly, 2 Peter 2:1 speaks of false prophecy in the past and false teaching in the future, suggesting that there would be no future prophecy. Fourthly, while Paul speaks of the sign gifts as being current in his letters to the Galatians, Thessalonians and Corinthians (all dated before AD 60), the references in his later epistles are all in the past (e.g. Eph 2:20; 1 Tim 1:18; 4:14). We might expect detailed instructions concerning the recognition and appointment of prophets in the pastoral letters, but we find none. The same is true of the letters of James, Peter, John and Jude. Where are the apostolic commands governing prophecy and ‘tongues’ down the ages? There are none because they fulfilled their purpose and passed away in the First Century. Moreover, there are numerous N.T. passages that warn against false prophecy (e.g.. Matt. 7:15-23; 24:24; 1 Tim. 4:1; 6:20; 2 Peter 2:1; 1 John 4:1; Rev. 19:20) and none which tell us to obey true ones. Why? Because there never will be any. We are also told that, ‘the time will come when [men] will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned to fables’ (2 Tim. 4:3f). What are we to do about that? ‘Preach the word!…..Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching’ (v.2). Not a word about prophesying.

[N.B. Please note my comments about the prophetic (forthtelling) element in preaching in my posts above]

Internet Theologian · Jan 8, 2016

agedman said:
I would disagree that any "private revelation that agrees with Scripture" is superfluous.

Often a believer will have a private input from the Holy Spirit about a matter. This is a "private revelation" in which some actually seek when praying about what choice to make, or an answer to a need. There is nothing "anti" Scriptural, and certainly such was encouraged by the Lord when He said, "When you pray...." (Matthew 6)

Matthew 6 is hardly a proof-text for your teachings here. You're amiss.

Why pray if you don't expect an answer? (James)

Why does a preacher call on the assembly to pray if they expect that the Scriptures give the answers?
There are principles of Scriptures that should never be violated. Should an answer violate Scriptures the answer is not of God. (1 John)

Matthew 6 is hardly a proof-text for your teachings here. You're amiss. None of your arguments flowing from your initial statements prove your teachings to be Biblical exegesis no matter how badly you believe they are.

There are situations in which even Paul gave opinion and it wasn't from the Lord. Do we take that opinion now as "from the Lord" or leave it as Paul would? (1 Corinthians)

More error here. The Word of God doesn't contain 'opinion'. God didn't need Paul's help when writing inspired Scripture, nor did Paul insert it into the text. None of us hold a Bible in hand that is subsequently tainted with human opinion as instruction for others.

If one is to take the stand that "private revelation" is unnecessary, then one logically must forgo talking to God at all and more especially in that most intimate of communications in which only the spirit within that is given by God makes acceptable communication. (Romans)

As usual your logic remains flawed.

prophet · Jan 8, 2016

Martin Marprelate said:
OK, let us consider 1 Cor. 13:8. ‘Love never fails. But whether there are prophesies, they will fail (Gk. katargethesontai. Literally, ‘Be rendered useless’ or ‘be abolished’); whether there are tongues, they will cease.’ This seems rather clear to me, and those who would make the text mean that prophecies will not fail and ‘tongues’ will not cease have the burden of evidence on them. It is suggested that prophecies and tongues will indeed disappear, but not until our Lord’s second coming. What then of faith and hope, which are said to ‘abide’ along with love? ‘Hope that is seen is not hope’ (Rom. 8:24) and ‘Faith is…..the evidence of things not seen’ (Heb. 11:1). When the Lord Jesus returns, ‘every eye shall see Him’ (Rev. 1:7) and we shall have no need of faith or hope, so they will ‘abide’ only until then. Therefore prophecy and tongues must pass away before the Second Coming. When were they to end? The answer is in verse 10. ‘But when that which is “perfect” has come, then that which is in part will pass away.’ The Greek word teleios, translated ‘perfect,’ can also mean ‘complete’ or ‘mature’ (as it does in 1 Cor. 14:20). ‘Mature’ seems to be the best translation as Paul goes on to talk about childhood and adulthood. What he is saying is that the sign gifts were given in the infancy of the Church, but in its maturity they would not be needed and the Corinthians should prepare to leave them behind as they had the things of childhood.

There are several evidences that this is the correct interpretation. Firstly, the number of miraculous signs recorded in Acts begins to fall away after Chapter 19. Secondly, Hebrews 2:3-4 places ‘miracles and gifts’ in the past. Thirdly, 2 Peter 2:1 speaks of false prophecy in the past and false teaching in the future, suggesting that there would be no future prophecy. Fourthly, while Paul speaks of the sign gifts as being current in his letters to the Galatians, Thessalonians and Corinthians (all dated before AD 60), the references in his later epistles are all in the past (e.g. Eph 2:20; 1 Tim 1:18; 4:14). We might expect detailed instructions concerning the recognition and appointment of prophets in the pastoral letters, but we find none. The same is true of the letters of James, Peter, John and Jude. Where are the apostolic commands governing prophecy and ‘tongues’ down the ages? There are none because they fulfilled their purpose and passed away in the First Century. Moreover, there are numerous N.T. passages that warn against false prophecy (e.g.. Matt. 7:15-23; 24:24; 1 Tim. 4:1; 6:20; 2 Peter 2:1; 1 John 4:1; Rev. 19:20) and none which tell us to obey true ones. Why? Because there never will be any. We are also told that, ‘the time will come when [men] will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned to fables’ (2 Tim. 4:3f). What are we to do about that? ‘Preach the word!…..Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching’ (v.2). Not a word about prophesying.

[N.B. Please note my comments about the prophetic (forthtelling) element in preaching in my posts above]

Problem?

"Prophecies" does not = "gift of prophecy".
"Tongues" does not = "gift of tongues"
Knowledge? Isn't a gift at all.

You proceeded right on in to a rambling lecture, but walked through a doorway of false premise.
You assumed the (recent) false interpretation, necessary to explain away doctrine for Dispy's and other heretics (not saying this is you), that ICor 13 is referring to gifts, here.

It isn't. In this series, three words are equal: prophecy, knowledge, and tongues.
Since one isn't a gift, none are, and that is the proper interpretation.

Earnestly Contend

Martin Marprelate · Jan 8, 2016

prophet said:
Knowledge? Isn't a gift at all.

1 Cor. 12:8.

prophet · Jan 8, 2016

Martin Marprelate said:
1 Cor. 12:8.

Again,

the word of knowledge does not = knowledge.

Apparently this is hard for you.

The gift is a speaking gift, and not just knowledge.
Knowledge is available to anyone, saved or lost.
The word of knowledge is a gift to a speaker in the assembly, as are most of the gifts, including prophecy.

Earnestly Contend

blessedwife318 · Jan 8, 2016

So I just read an series of articles that I thought was interesting in light of this tread. It was a 3 part series about a group of witches that went to a charismatic church service. What I found most tragic about this is that 3 different "prophets" at this church told one of the witches that she was on the right path, and God was happy with her, and to keep doing what she was doing.
That is a false prophet.
those that believe in foretelling may say that modern day prophets are not held to the same level of accuracy as the OT prophet. The Bible in no where does away with the standard a prophet must meet in the OT, so if someone takes on the mantle of prophet and was to foretell they had better be 100% right or they are a false prophet.
Now I do believe that foretelling goes against Sola Scriptura so I don't think there is anyone doing any foretelling any more.

TCassidy · Jan 8, 2016

prophet said:
Knowledge? Isn't a gift at all.

1 Corinthians 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

Would the Continuation of the Gift ofProphecy Challenge Sola Scriptura?

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