Not a Disciple, just a Believer?

Only God knows/knew this mans heart. The truth is, it is to late for him, but she still has a choice to make, independent of what people say about her brother.

 

Remember righteous Lot (2 Peter 2:7).

Rob

 

So you would draw the line somewhere between murder and incest.

I'd be inclined to agree with you that this man did not exhibit the fruit of belief

But I've worked with enough people that are overwhelmed by the cares of the world, while still professing belief.

How much of a disciple do you need to be?
How many works to I need to perform to achieve the status of disciple?

Kevin had it right:

Rob

 

Good morning Theo,

You stated that you shared some scriptures with this lady which implies that in your mind you have a sense of the situation but are looking for some biblical proofs to support your possible conclusion. To that end I have the following considerations which I am sure you have considered these at least in part.

The woman has come to you indicating she is looking for answers and that she believes for what ever reason you have those answers. So the question may not be what of the man who is dead and will be buried but what of the woman who is dead in trespasses and sin who can still have eternal life? What is more important at this point my theology which I cannot prove absolutely if the man were saved or unsaved, or seeing this woman have the opportunity to come to Christ.

I believe Deacon had the right thought when he pointed you to Lot not assuming that lot was participating in the wickedness but simply that he did not stand against the wickedness and thus lost his family. The key being that though he did lose his testimony, he did lose his family but did he lose his salvation (no) but by every account he was not a man who modeled a belief in God nor was his family God fearing. Scripture indicates Lot was righteous (assuming he was accepted as righteous) but nothing about his life style reflected that declaration.

We know that any advice you will receive on the BB comes from our personal understanding of bible and our theology of POS or OSAS.

The next question I would ask you to consider is this, Is eternal life eternal? Can Eternal life be lost? If we believe eternal life cannot be lost then regardless of the mans struggles with sin we must trust his personal testimony in this matter. If the family believes this man to be saved and I am not sure they do, allow them to have that comfort you cannot do anything for the dead.

The roots of envy and bitterness defile many and sin can keep a hold on a person for many years taking that person where they would have never gone had they not played with fire. We have both seen preachers do abominable things in our years of life surely not all of them were wolves most if not all were caught up in sin and sin left unchecked brought them to their destruction. If God's men who know and understand God's word can fall into sin then is it not likely this man could have also walked the same path? Why are we constantly reminded to repent and ask forgiveness of our personal sin? And what would be our end should we hold unto that sin as King David did when he had Bathsheba's husband killed? Would we say that David were unsaved? What if David had not repented after such a long time would he have lost his salvation? I think not!!

If the man's personal testimony was that he was saved, regardless of how I access the situation in my mind my, speech will agree with the opinion of his family for why should I take away their hope and close the door of ministry to the living.

I am not sure this is what you were looking for my friend and I have not had my devotions yet but this is my not quite awake response.

thjplgvp

 

IT, I don't mean to derail your thread, but I am curious about your view on how the suicide factors in with the egregious sins this man committed.

Does the doctrine on perseverance of the saints allow for a suicide to be a believer, or is that an impossibility?

 

The OP has not proven that the statement of salvation from this man was invalidated by either his suicide or his addiction.

Suicide and addiction can remove a person from salvation in the views of the Arminian folks (such as Hagee) or the papist folks (who consider they hold such keys).

However, as one who embraces the D. of G. (with some personal modifications), there is no such ability in humankind who have been chosen by God and given to Christ. Christ is viewed as the author and finisher of the faith.

It is not given to the believer to judge the salvation of another who professes (professed).

A believer may look upon the "works" to determine the validity of the witness, the level of maturity, and other areas in which the Holy Spirit may manifest or be quieted. However, such things are not to be indicators of a person being redeemed or not. For, the greatest blessings that the enemy of the Christ has to give are not the original document (believers) but the copies standing the pulpits as fakers.

 

Hi Rob,

This question brought up a discussion I had many years ago on how people circumvented the doctrinal stands of the church particularly we were discussing Jack Kevorkian and his assisted suicide propaganda. During this discussion I learned that there was time (and maybe some still use this method) if wanted to die he simply paid someone to kill him because there was no forgiveness if one committed suicide but if one committed murder he could be forgiven. So if one wanted to die they simply paid for it and had the best of both worlds, so to speak.

Since we are well aware of how depression and lost of hope mixed in with the demonical influence of our age can cause anyone at anytime to go over the edge I believe that even a believer can commit suicide. As to your question I certainly believe sin and demonic influence can push people to suicide because they see no hope of overcoming their sin within their human reasoning.

thjplgvp

 

That there was no "fruit" that the sister discerned is not an indication that the work of God is ineffective. The fact that he died is just as much an indication as the lack of fruit.

Lack of fruit is NOT an indication of salvation, it is a lack of maturing as a believer. Some remain meatless their whole life, but that doesn't mean that they are not redeemed. Such judgment is reserved for God to make, not us.

I really have a problem with folks thinking that Simon is in the flames. The Scriptures DO NOT make that presentation, and neither did Peter.

Here is the statement from Scriptures with specific highlights that I added to help the reader understand the truth.

13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.

22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.
25 And they, when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, returned to Jerusalem, and preached the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans.​

NOTE folks, there is no judgment made by Peter as to the person's salvation, rather to the "thoughts of the heart" were needing forgiveness by God.

Yes, I am all for rebuking the believer who is found to be in a fault. But, I am not an Apostle, do not have the authority of the apostle, and am told by the Apostle Paul, that when one is found in error, that I gather two others and go to that person. That we must be VERY careful that the fault of that person does not become our own.

It is not given to believers to judge a person as condemned or redeemed, but to take at face value that one who can proclaim belief, is in fact a believer.

Having grown up with orchards of trees, I can tell you that not every tree bears the same fruit as all trees. Some are apples, some are oranges. A single fruit does not an unbeliever make. Sometime fruit is hidden and has to be "tapped" to be revealed. How I do enjoy maple syrup.

Of course I speak of maturity, and often, for that is what most of the NT letters were about. The very charge given by Christ was that of making mature believers.

That you seem offended by the emphasis is not showing a lack on my part.

The discernment of fruit is to gauge maturity for service, and it is also an indicator of one who may have taken on error.

NEVER is the fruit to be used as an indicator of one who is saved or not. That is God's business.

The believer has no right to proclaim that a certain member of the family is no longer a family member.

It matters very little what "camp" that thinking may come from, be it papist, Arminian, or Calvinistic. Such proclamations are not given to the believer to make.

That some folks do not like that they cannot make such judgment does not detract from the truth of Scriptures, that such judgment is not within their sphere of influence. The ONLY time such was given was to Peter when He unlocked the doors (metaphorically speaking) for the Jews and the Gentiles. But even then Peter was not given keys over life and death, nor who would or would not enter redemption.

This follows what Paul said to the Thessalonians

Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing.

But we request of you, brethren, that you appreciate those who diligently labor among you, and have charge over you in the Lord and give you instruction, and that you esteem them very highly in love because of their work. Live in peace with one another. We urge you, brethren, admonish the unruly, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with everyone. See that no one repays another with evil for evil, but always seek after that which is good for one another and for all people. Rejoice always; pray without ceasing; in everything give thanks; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus. Do not quench the Spirit; do not despise prophetic utterances. But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; abstain from every form of evil.​

Sorry for your confusion. I did leave the "in" out. So, here is the statement, again, with the "in" in.

For, the greatest blessings that the enemy of the Christ has to give are not the original documents (believers) but the copies standing in the pulpits as fakers.

 

I think that was wise.

I think we are looking at the same thing from different angles.

I see belief in Christ as a single event and discipleship as a process.

If you believe in Christ, you are a believer.... If you follow him you are a disciple.

John's whole gospel is centers upon belief rather than discipleship.

“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.” (John 20:31, NIV)​

Only after believing does one become a disciple. Discipleship is a response to belief in Christ and not an entry point to salvation. Discipleship occurs after one believes.

Discipleship is a process that is part of the Christian believer's journey and we each walk a different path.

Scripture tells us about good disciples, poor disciples bad disciples and errant disciples; these are distinguished from false disciples.

Rob

 

If one can bathe without getting wet, then one can be a believer and not a disciple. Being a disciple is a characteristic of being a believer; just as being wet is a characteristic of bathing.