Featured Biblical Assertion

The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and canot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

How much plainer does it have to be expressed? This person does not have the indwelling Holy Spirit. This person cannot understand spiritual things --cannot --unable --impossible.

Things of a spiritual nature are foolishness. Look at 1 Cor. 1:18 :
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

A person without the Spirit --who regards spiritual things as foolishness --cannot understand them is lost --perishing.

 

Van, what did those four soils in Matthew 13 do to receive the seed? Nothing. Yet, the bad ones had nothing that would make the seed grow and bear fruit. The one good ground had the seed grow and produce fruit.

The fig tree the that wasn't producing figs, the keeper fertilized it and it began to grow. We are those fig tree that were unfruitful until an outside Source, Christ, gave us an ability to produce fruit.

 

Well actually, 1 Cor. 2:14 does. 'But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.'

Would you like to parse the verse, or explain the intricacies of the Greek to us, in order to explain to us why the plain statement, 'But the natural man does not receive the things of God' actually means 'But the natural man does receive some of the things of God.'

Then you can get to work and explain why Matt. 11:27, John 6:44 and several other verses don't mean what they so clearly do.

 

Hello! You will find no biblical commentator who agrees with your flipped-out understanding of 1 Cor. 2:14.

The part of the verse that is relevant :...no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
John 5:21 : ...the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.
Luke 10:22 : ...no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

Those verses run counter to your view.

No, Matthew 28:19 and 20 is speaking of what we call the Great Commission. Every single person has not and shall not hear the Gospel --especially those living before the time of His ministry. Our task, as believers, is to spread the Gospel and to teach others --to disciple them.

No one can can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

It doesn't mention the Gospel here. It says that those, and only those, whom the Father draws will come to Jesus. And Jesus will raise them up on the Last Day.

 

Uhhh, better recheck that. Bad trees produce bad fruit. It's fruit, but bad fruit.

No disagreement here, mon ami.

I do not see how that proves limited spiritual ability. No one is partially dead or partially alive. They are either dead or living. That is the way with our spirit. It is either nekros or it is not. There is no middle ground here, mon ami.

Again, bad trees produce bad fruit, monsieur.

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,[Eph. 1:13]

Give ear and come to me; listen, that you may live.[Isa. 55:3a]

Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.[John 5:25]

All of these show that it takes hearing to come to Christ. Now, it is much more than the natural man that needs to hear, but the spirit within man that needs to hear. The spirit within man, prior to regeneration, is dead, is nekros in transgressions and sins[Eph. 2:1]. Lazarus, being physically dead, head Christ's voice and responded. The widow's only son, who was dead and being carried to his burial, heard Jesus' voice and responded. They were as dead as anything that had ever died, and yet they responded. Why? Christ enabled them. They had no limited physical ability to respond to mankind. They responded only after Christ enabled them to do so via the Spirit of God.

It is the exact same way with the spirit within man. God must enable that spirit to respond, because it was dead in transgressions and sins, and had no ability to respond until the work of God wrought upon their heart, their spirit.

 

Bro. Van, you like to talk about how unregenerate are able to understand the milk of the gospel. There is much to this that you are not taking into account. We both know the gospel flows from God. The milk of the gospel, no where does it come from? God, but let us take and use a natural example...provided by scripture...of where this gospel milk comes from.

“Before she goes into labor, she gives birth; before the pains come upon her, she delivers a son. Who has ever heard of such things? Who has ever seen things like this? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children. Do I bring to the moment of birth and not give delivery?” says the LORD. “Do I close up the womb when I bring to delivery?” says your God. Rejoice with Jerusalem and be glad for her, all you who love her; rejoice greatly with her, all you who mourn over her. For you will nurse and be satisfied at her comforting breasts; you will drink deeply and delight in her overflowing abundance. For this is what the LORD says: “I will extend peace to her like a river, and the wealth of nations like a flooding stream; you will nurse and be carried on her arm and dandled on her knees. As a mother comforts her child, so will I comfort you; and you will be comforted over Jerusalem.”[Isa. 66:7-13]

This is a picture of a mother and her suckling babe. This is also a picture of Christ and His bride, the church. When Zion(Christ's bride) and He, come together, they bring forth their children. Mother Jerusalem nurses her suckling babes and they alone. They are the ones who receive this sincere milk of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The devil's children will never suck on these breasts.

Now, take David's and Bathsheba's baby that died. Once it was dead, it did not have the ability, the faculty to suck upon her breasts and drink of her milk because he was dead. The unregenerate, spiritually, are in the same boat. They can not suck upon Mother Jerusalem's breasts until they are quickened, regenerated.

 

Non Monsieur,non, it is not moi who does not really grasp scripture. Can you show me any historical creeds or confessions that hold to your belief? Any 'Articles of Faith/Confessions of Faith' churches today that advocate this belief of yours? I'd venture to guess no ORB, UB, IFB, FWB, SBC, FBC, et al would hold to your view. I did work with a woman who was WoF and she advocated sinners didn't need drawn to come to Christ, which is full-blown Pelagianism.

It's not my doctrine mon ami.

People are known by their fruits, Bro. Van. Bad trees produce bad fruit. Good trees produce good fruit. Sinners have bad fruit.

 

Van, it is clear that you have not understood the statement from the 1689 Confession, but have wrenched it from its context (ie. the rest of the chapter) and has forced your own reasoning on it.

Your failure to understand these Scriptures and your consequent faulty interpretation of them have been pointed out to you time and time again on previous threads. Do we really have to go through all this stuff again? Can't you just accept that you are actually not clever enough to work out a whole new system of theology all on your own?

 

That's a polite way of saying he tried his best to explain in detail, but you have been obstinate, if not obtuse.

You have misplaced your thinking cap Van.
Verse 14: The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

Now that kind of person is not a Christian whatsoever. It is as plain as the nose on your face. To argue against it indeed foolish.

But the next verse says :
The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments

Have you noted the contrast Van? Without the Spirit in verse 14, and with the Spirit in verse 15. In verse 15 Paul is speaking of a believer --a Christian.

Verse 16 is a follow-up on verse 15 pertaing to a believer --But we have the mind of Christ.

In chapter 3, verse 1-3 it starts off by saying : Brothers and sisters, now that is ovviously addressed to believers.

I don't have the time right now to develop this --but you do understand plain language --don't you?

I Cor. 2:14-3:3 is a total of six verses --not three. You are indeed arithmatically challenged. ;-)

 

I am not!

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Ok, look at Ephesians 2 (NIV):

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
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In the posts of this thread, it is YOU who would place human ability as the catalyst of moving humans from death to life. That is not the presentation of the Scriptures that YOU attempted to use but do not support your thinking.

Then you struggle with Matthew 13 in attempting to make the three soils having some self determination.

There is hardly a farmer to be found that will not understand that the seed has the germ of life within itself, and that seed, even cast upon the stones, will when in the presence of moisture and light break out and of itself grow. However, because it is not found in prepared soil, it will wither and die.

There is no life in the soil, rather the prepared soil has what is necessary for life. It is prepared so that when life is given, that life may grow.

Because there are some who do not grasp that which is basic to farming, there is a distortion of the Matthew 13 which would present that life in some manner is already present in the ground. But it just isn't the truth. Of themselves, minerals, nutrients, light, water, .... has no life. Yet, when life is introduced it is supported by these basic elements.

That is also basic to the conflict of evolutionary thought in which humankind evolved from some phenomena involving the ocean. Life begets life, nothing else.

 

Van, you cannot proof text Romans 5:2 to support that statement.

Look further in the same chapter:

Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.​

There is no "faith providing access" statement anywhere found. What YOU desire to see in Romans 5:2 is not existent. Rather, it is BY faith one is justified and one is at peace and is introduced to the Grace of God. So, compare the statement of Romans 5:2 to Romans 5: 9 and 10. It is NOT OUR faith, but that which God provides because Christ's BLOOD brought justification, and reconciliation, and the grace of salvation.

Again, it is not the supposed faith of the believer, but that brought by God and implanted.

I DID address THE position of what was correct. That YOUR position is wrong, does not oblige me to acknowledge the validity of that position - there is none to acknowledge.

SEED has life in itself. It is called the germ. Seed will grow of itself from the surrounding parts of the seed, without proper nutrients from any other source, for a short time, but dies from lack of outside nutrition. That is the condition of all soil EXCEPT that prepared earth.

At NO TIME is the dirt alive, prior to the seed planted. Rather the dirt is prepared. Each soil is prepared by the farmer for the desired use by the farmer. It is not up to the dirt or related dirt to make itself ready.

The is no "limited spiritual ability" in any ground but the prepared soil, and even then the ability only resides in that the soil is PREPARED for the seed, and that the seed may thrive as the farmer desires. Until the seed is planted in the prepared soil, it remains with no significant ability other than the acknowledgement by the farmer that it is prepared. The soil is not self aware that it is has any significance or determination of preparation and use.

Sure you did, by considering the soils have "limited spiritual ability."

Two comments:
1) The quote above does NOT address "Spiritual Ability" but the "natural liberty and power of acting upon choice." You cannot manipulate the statement from the document to say what you desire it to say no matter how hard you have in this thread tried.
2) I have stated on more than one occasion that there are a few areas in which I disagree with the writers. It is on a thread opened for that discussion. There is no need for me to restate what is already on that thread for all to read. The "natural liberty" of the unregenerate allows choices from that which is unregenerate, that will decay, that will fail. That some of those choices may be "good" in the manner of better (such as one eating or not eating healthy) but ultimately, ALL DIE anyway. So, such "natural liberty" means very little, and most certainly does not connect in any manner to some supposed innate "spiritual ability" as you would desire.