Featured Challenging statements about the atonement

Read the next verse? The world was already condemned. By God, which He is.

 

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QUOTE="Internet Theologian, post: 2208885, member: 12590"]Read the next verse? The world was already condemned. By God, which He is.[/QUOTE]

What? Who?

Jhn 5:22
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

If the Father didn't judge man and the Son didn't ....
Jhn 3:17
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

How am I condemned already?

 

So,
You quote one guy who died 90+ years ago, another who died 60+ years ago, 5 quotes from a wack job, and everyone here is guilty of teaching numerous "plans of salvation"

Isn't that similar to every Dispensationalist being accused of peddling the teachings of Darby? Even those who've never heard of him? I read once that the "escape" rapture was contrived by a Jesuit priest. Who knows?

By those kinds of "guilt by association" standards, shouldn't every Calvinist be rightly accused of espousing infant baptism?

 

Oh, i indeed miss the false statement that Dispensationalism never....

That would be false, indeed.

 

Agreed for the most part, though we can see that they awaited that heavenly city. Citizenry in the eternal sense was something promised and not realized by those who died in faith in expectation of that which would come when perfection was accomplished.

That was the point of the quote from Hebrews 12:23, that the Old Testament Saints were made perfect after their deaths at the time of the Cross. Their transgressions were redeemed at that point, thus we see "spirits made perfect," which is contrasted with the Covenant of Law, Hebrews 12:18-21.

Again, agreed for the most part, the only issue arising being an imposition of faith in Christ as it is revealed when the New Covenant is established. The Old Testament Saint truly awaited their Messiah, however, specific faith in the Cross of Christ was not something they had, and in fact we do not even see that in the first disciple of Christ. It is not until the Spirit of God in the Ministry of Comforter comes that this Mystery is revealed.

But he is correct in pointing out that they were not made perfect/complete. Hebrews makes it clear this was a result of the Sacrifice of Christ. The context centers on Remission of sins, and makes it clear that Christ's Sacrifice was the means for that which was promised to the Old Testament Saint in regards to the Covenant God would one day establish: Hebrews 8:12

I would disagree with Mr. Allen, based on the context of Hebrews itself. Entrance into the eternal is not in view at all, it is a matter of Remission of sins in general. The Writer does not center on our eternal state, but the state of believers in regards to remission of sins. He contrasts that which is temporal (the Tabernacle, the Priesthood, and the sacrifices) with the Ministry of Christ in Reconciliation/Atonement. To the New Covenant believer he states "You have not come to (the Covenant of Law)..., but you have come to Christ and the New Covenant."

Throughout the book is exhortation and warning to leave that which was incomplete and "go on unto" that which is complete.

Only those who are under Law can be said to fall into danger of the condemnation that arises from being under Law in this Age, for in doing so they are rejecting Christ and the New Covenant. Of course, it is basically impossible for anyone in this day to say they are keeping the Covenant of Law unless they obey it fully and offer up sacrifice for sins. We see a tendency for modern Judaizers to have created a keeping of the Covenant of Law that is not in fact in keeping with the Covenant as prescribed by God.

But that is nothing new, really, because it is because they did not keep the Law that the New Covenant was promised. Hebrews 8:8-9.

Agreed. Men could not be reconciled until the penalty for their sin was accomplished. The remission of sins under the Law (and this has significance because it was the Covenant instituted by God and in effect at the time of the Cross, the System abrogated by the New Covenant) was temporal and temporary, of necessity due to it's incomplete nature repeated often and daily.

You do not stand alone, I too take that position. I think the key in nailing it down is a proper understanding of regeneration and when that began to take place. The Baptism with the Holy Ghost is, according to John the Baptist, a future event at the time of his preaching. We see that this takes place at Pentecost and that Christ taught He had to return to Heaven before He could come.

It is the consistent teaching of both the Old Testament and the New, and helps us to understand Scripture better, in my view.


God bless.

 

Yes, it is the mistaken idea that because Old and New Testament Saints do not receive the same things it implies more than one means of salvation.

An example of why that is not the case would be in the first example, Born Again/Not Born Again. This is true of Old And New Testament Saints, but this does not deny salvation to the Old Testament Saint. The New Birth was promised under the Covenant of Law, and provided in the New Covenant.

God bless.

 

In just touching on one issue that you present as two different salvations, the New Birth (I am out of time), we do not see two different salvations but the same salvation as it progressively unfolds. As discussed before, Christ brought completion to a number of things which were incomplete as well as non-existent under the Covenant of Law.

So the starting point would be in regards as to whether the Old Testament Saints had, in their day, remission of sins from an eternal perspective.

This...


Hebrews 9:12-15

King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


...speaks to Atonement and Remission of sins, both of which are distinguished as different from the previous Ages.

How this ties into Reconciliation might be broached by asking, can one be in spiritual relationship with God on an eternal basis without having had their sins forgiven?

And we understand that the New Birth demands that we be in Christ, which we do not see in the Old Testament.

Sorry for this rushed response, out of time and have to get going.


God bless.