Featured Challenging statements about the atonement

JonC · Feb 22, 2016

Darrell C said: ↑

Agreed for the most part, though we can see that they awaited that heavenly city. Citizenry in the eternal sense was something promised and not realized by those who died in faith in expectation of that which would come when perfection was accomplished.

That was the point of the quote from Hebrews 12:23, that the Old Testament Saints were made perfect after their deaths at the time of the Cross. Their transgressions were redeemed at that point, thus we see "spirits made perfect," which is contrasted with the Covenant of Law, Hebrews 12:18-21.

Again, agreed for the most part, the only issue arising being an imposition of faith in Christ as it is revealed when the New Covenant is established. The Old Testament Saint truly awaited their Messiah, however, specific faith in the Cross of Christ was not something they had, and in fact we do not even see that in the first disciple of Christ. It is not until the Spirit of God in the Ministry of Comforter comes that this Mystery is revealed.

But he is correct in pointing out that they were not made perfect/complete. Hebrews makes it clear this was a result of the Sacrifice of Christ. The context centers on Remission of sins, and makes it clear that Christ's Sacrifice was the means for that which was promised to the Old Testament Saint in regards to the Covenant God would one day establish: Hebrews 8:12

I would disagree with Mr. Allen, based on the context of Hebrews itself. Entrance into the eternal is not in view at all, it is a matter of Remission of sins in general. The Writer does not center on our eternal state, but the state of believers in regards to remission of sins. He contrasts that which is temporal (the Tabernacle, the Priesthood, and the sacrifices) with the Ministry of Christ in Reconciliation/Atonement. To the New Covenant believer he states "You have not come to (the Covenant of Law)..., but you have come to Christ and the New Covenant."

Throughout the book is exhortation and warning to leave that which was incomplete and "go on unto" that which is complete.

Only those who are under Law can be said to fall into danger of the condemnation that arises from being under Law in this Age, for in doing so they are rejecting Christ and the New Covenant. Of course, it is basically impossible for anyone in this day to say they are keeping the Covenant of Law unless they obey it fully and offer up sacrifice for sins. We see a tendency for modern Judaizers to have created a keeping of the Covenant of Law that is not in fact in keeping with the Covenant as prescribed by God.

But that is nothing new, really, because it is because they did not keep the Law that the New Covenant was promised. Hebrews 8:8-9.

Agreed. Men could not be reconciled until the penalty for their sin was accomplished. The remission of sins under the Law (and this has significance because it was the Covenant instituted by God and in effect at the time of the Cross, the System abrogated by the New Covenant) was temporal and temporary, of necessity due to it's incomplete nature repeated often and daily.

You do not stand alone, I too take that position. I think the key in nailing it down is a proper understanding of regeneration and when that began to take place. The Baptism with the Holy Ghost is, according to John the Baptist, a future event at the time of his preaching. We see that this takes place at Pentecost and that Christ taught He had to return to Heaven before He could come.

It is the consistent teaching of both the Old Testament and the New, and helps us to understand Scripture better, in my view.

God bless.
Click to expand...

Thank you for your comments, brother. I've been thinking about your reply.

I share your conclusion of Hebrews 12:23, and after consideration I see your point regarding an imposition of faith in Christ as it is revealed when with the establishment of the New Covenant. I believe the “object” of faith to be the same in the form of God’s provision, but this provision is revealed in the New Covenant.

I’m not sure regarding Allen’s comments. At first glance I lean towards this “yet unseen” promise to be the Kingdom of God. I will have to think about this some more.

Darrell C · Feb 23, 2016

TCassidy said: ↑

Uh, no, that is not what I am saying. I have clearly stated at least twice that it is incontestable that the benefits of the New Covenant greatly exceed the benefits of the Old Covenant.

(The BB needs a "Zoom, right over his head" icon.)
Click to expand...

Incontestable?

That is true, But it is actually the opposite of what you say that is incontestable. To date, not one person has bothered to address this:

Hebrews 9:12-15

King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Can you seriously say that the benefit of remission of sins in completion as opposed to animal sacrifice does not greatly exceed the benefits of the Covenant of Law?

God bless.

OnlyaSinner · Feb 23, 2016

TCassidy said: ↑

It is still held by many (too many) people. He also supported Bishop Ussher's 4004 BC date of creation, which is also still held my many (too many) people.

Which, of course, was not the point.
Click to expand...

Methinks my 1965 (IIRC) edition of the Scofield Reference Bible did some revising of his notes after his death. There's no mention of the gap theory, and the Ussher OT chronology is specifically argued against. This edition states that "begat" can equally be translated as referencing one's father or one's more distant ancestor, and also notes that the OT genealogies may not all be comprehensive. Nor do we know how long Adam and Eve lived prior to the Fall. IMO, the 1965 edition's comments on chronology don't push the day-age concept nor make any attempt to fit OT chronology with secular science dating, but hold to a young earth, just not 6,020 years young.

TCassidy · Feb 23, 2016

OnlyaSinner said: ↑

There's no mention of the gap theory
Click to expand...

The New Scofield moved the Gap Theory from Genesis to Isaiah (see notes on Genesis 1:2 and Isaiah 45:18), but it is still there, although in a watered down form.

OnlyaSinner · Feb 26, 2016

TCassidy said: ↑

The New Scofield moved the Gap Theory from Genesis to Isaiah (see notes on Genesis 1:2 and Isaiah 45:18), but it is still there, although in a watered down form.
Click to expand...

All the times I've read Isaiah and I never stopped at that note - thanks for pointing it out. The note cites verses that the editors hold to support "earth" in Gen. 1:2 as being our specific planet rather than all of what God created as recorded in 1:1, thus implying support for some variant ("watered down" might be generous) of the gap theory. It's not the only point on which I disagree with the Scofield notes, but as has been said of other people, "better a diamond with a flaw than a pebble without."

Featured Challenging statements about the atonement

JonC Moderator
Moderator

Darrell C Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

OnlyaSinner Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator

OnlyaSinner Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

Useful Searches

Featured Challenging statements about the atonement

JonC Moderator Moderator

Darrell C Well-Known Member Site Supporter

OnlyaSinner Well-Known Member Site Supporter

TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus Administrator

OnlyaSinner Well-Known Member Site Supporter

JonC Moderator
Moderator

Darrell C Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

OnlyaSinner Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator

OnlyaSinner Well-Known Member
Site Supporter