Featured Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost?

In one sense we could say that, but consider Israel today: are they saved by their expectation of Messiah?

The answer is no.

The distinction of the Comforter's Ministry is the revelation that accompanies that Ministry. He glorifies Christ, not in generalities, but enlightening men to the truth of the Gospel. It is specific faith in Christ risen from the dead by which men are saved on an eternal basis, and are reconciled to God. Not a general faith in the promises of God, but faith in Him directly.

Again, the Old Testament Saint was "saved" by faith, but we can easily say they died not having their sins forgiven through Christ. While sayings such as "They were saved on credit" may sound reasonable, it is error.

They died still in need of redemption. Saved, yes. Born again, no.

So if they had already been saved, again I ask you...why did He come?

The answer is that until Christ died for the sins of sinners, they remained yet in expectancy of salvation. Again, we distinguish between that salvation which God granted which kept men from eternal judgment, which could be likened to His preservation of men today before they are saved.

Exactly, you put it very nicely:

"...for which then salvation became a present reality,"

The Old Testament Saints awaited that redemption. You know this, John, though you perhaps have not placed it into a context such as we have with the question of the OP. Just give it some thought, that's all I ask.


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Only believers after His Resurrection enjoy the benefit of salvation immediately. It is quite different to die still in need of having your sins atoned for and to have that while yet alive.

Secondly, we see the distinction of the Ministry of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament as opposed to in the New. Few would seriously equate the two Ministries, and the Lord is quite extensive in His teaching concerning the Comforter, particularly in John 14 and 16.

In John 15 we read...


John 15:26-27

King James Version (KJV)

26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.


You can discern the future tense in this teaching, right?

Great, if you would like to discuss them, we can.

That is not off topic because Regeneration is the bestowal of eternal life, which is the result of being placed in He Who is Eternal. In other words, eternal life is not a substance the Lord keep a vat of, pouring it out upon whom He chooses, but He is the source, and this is what man lost in Adam.

That relationship was lost through sin, and in Christ that relationship is restored.

The Old Testament Saint did not receive this.


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It is all relevant, my friend. We cannot exegete John 3 and neglect all teaching provided us in Scripture concerning Regeneration.

Regeneration, the New Birth, involves forgiveness of sins, restoration of relationship with God, which is the indwelling eternal presence of God.

We can say that since it was an ongoing conversation, however, that Christ speaks of what is going to happen in the future, which at this time is not being revealed, gives us the future tense that is actually within the passage.

Again, can a man be born again yet not have his sin forgiven?

Where is the command? You are imposing that into the passage.

The simple statement of this truth is not a command, but just that, a simple statement of truth.

And that truth remains true today, except a man be born again, he cannot enter into the Kingdom. That is true of being saved, and it will be true of the Millennial Kingdom.


God bless.

 

And you seem to have decided that abiding means being obedient.

John, you understand perfectly that Christianity is not a religion based on works, but a relationship.

Now what is the "vine" which the True Vine is contrasted with?

Israel.

And we will see in Acts those who abide in Christ and those who abode in the previous means of relationship with God. There is no denying that Israel was that vine, but that vine was made obsolete in the establishment of the New Covenant.

No, John, you always abide. You may be disobedient at times, but that does not mean you are in, out, in, out...of your relationship with Christ.

They weren't.

The disciples stood in a place where you and I will never stand, because you and I will never have to throw off a heritage that was God ordained.

I have never implied abiding equates to obedience or faithfulness (not to be confused with faith).

At no time can one in relationship with Christ be cut out and tossed into the fire (which is speaking of eternal judgment). One is either in Christ or they are not.


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Peter is not in Christ in John 16.

This is clear from his actions. He takes up a sword to keep Christ from the Cross. Think about that. He denies he knows Christ. He has not been Baptized with the Holy Ghost, which based on Christ's teaching is linked also to eternal life.

We can say Peter abides based on the eventual salvation of Peter.

Which you have equated with obedience/faithfulness.

Consider that only those abiding produce fruit. This demands that abiding is something else. And it is. It is salvation in Christ, relationship with God through Christ...not the works, not the fruit.

And they are two entirely different things. One can abode yet not be walking in the Spirit, because he grieves the Spirit.

On the contrary, we interpret literally the truth meant to be understood when metaphor is used. To interpret this literally we would make the Lord a plant.

Again, Metaphor, figures of speech, imagery, symbolism, et cetera, are all used to convey truths. While we are careful about finding those truths, we also do not diminish that truth because metaphor is involved.

Just tell me, what is the vine contrasted with the True Vine?


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Why not?

Christ did.

His Doctrine in regards to the True Vine is that the disciples remain...in Him.

This is what it means to be Baptized with the Holy Ghost, John. It is a literal immersion into God:


John 14:20

King James Version (KJV)

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.


Future or present tense?

That's okay.

But can you tell me what the Lord means here...


John 15:16

King James Version (KJV)

16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.


When was this fulfilled?


God bless.

 

Agreed. The time in which those of Israel would either abide, or be cut out, was just ahead for them.

That does not change the fact that not one of them were trusting in the Cross of Christ, nor understood that which Christ came to do. He was a failure as a Messiah for them, for the Messiah they looked for could not, would not die, but establish the Everlating Kingdom through triumph over their enemies.

And I emphasize their.

It would not be until they were born again that they would understand...they were the enemies of God:

Romans 5:10

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

And the testimony they conveyed was that of the Kingdom, not the Gospel of Jesus Christ. They were sent unto the Lost Sheep of Israel, which in the Greek, "lost means basically that they were a people in a state of destruction.

And despite being empowered to heal, preach, and cast out demons, again, not one of them could be said to be abiding in Christ. The reason is that at that point, until Baptized with the Holy Ghost Who revealed the Mystery of the Gospel to them, they were natural men still in need of the Reconciliation.

And to once again clarify I am not saying they were not saved, we understand that the Elect are known to God from before the foundation of the world. The Just among the Old Testament Saints enjoyed the security of salvation just as we do, and some of them even knew that, but, that does not mean they understood that God would take on the flesh of man and die in His place, thereby establishing the grounds for Reconciliation, that we might be brought back into the union with God on an eternal and spiritual level.

I know it is a difficult concept to consider men like Noah, Abraham, Moses, and other great men of faith as...natural. But that is the case.

The Baptism with the Holy Ghost has a specific point in time in which it began to be effected, and that is at Pentecost. And once again, to touch back on the point of your response, we see that the disciples were not empowered until Pentecost to be witnesses of Christ, at which time with understanding given them of the Gospel of Christ, they immediately begin to proclaim a message which they did not take to the lost Sheep of Israel previously:


Acts 1:6-8

King James Version (KJV)

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


It is absolutely vital that we acknowledge the progressive nature of revelation in Scripture. Truly Christ was promised in the Garden at the Fall, but we do not equate that with the Revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ provided us when the New Covenant abrogated that Covenant which could not justify, could make righteous, and could not even make fallen man...keep that Covenant.

God said "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes and to keep my judgments." When He said that it was yet promise, and that is what the disciples were told to await in Jerusalem:


Acts 1:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


Christ defines that promise as central to the coming of the Comforter, Who He had taught them of, as contrasting John's baptism of Repentance with the Baptism with the Holy Ghost.

That is what they were to wait for, and when He did come on the Day of Pentecost, they immediately began to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Not the Gospel of the Kingdom, which they were sent out to preach previously.


God bless.

 

Agreed for the most part, with the exception in regards to the "Regeneration," which I view to speak of the renovation, if you will, of the earth when the curse is lifted in part.

Well, one other thing, since I'm here: Christ being the Firstborn from the Dead applies primarily to glorification. We are born again at salvation, yet we await the redemption of the body, that we be like Christ. Christ is the only One glorified at this point.


God bless.

 

No, I agree, we have been saved in regeneration, yet we await the redemption of our bodies which will take place at the Rapture.

The point is that glorification is the resurrection of the body, whereas the new birth is the resurrection of spirit, the result of the reunion of God and man. We are not resurrected from the dead in the bodily sense, it is spiritual.

And this is what makes talking about whether men were born again before Pentecost difficult, because some will equate salvation with the new birth without distinguishing the culmination of salvation. Old Testament Saints were saved by grace through faith, yet they were not born again. We are saved by grace through faith, yet we are not glorified (though it is a certainty according to Paul in Romans 8:30).

We properly say we have been saved (from the penalty of sin), we are being saved (from the effects of sin, an ongoing process as we grow), and we will be saved (from the presence of sin, at which time sin shall be no more. But that awaits the Eternal State.


God bless.

 

Agree with all of this with the exception of uncertainty as to whether men were indwelt only after Pentecost. While the Spirit of God did minister in the hearts of men, and by this we could ascribe an "indwelling," where God comes upon a person for the purpose of ministry, I do not see that as equated to the Eternal indwelling in view under New Covenant standards.

For consideration:


John 14:16-18

King James Version (KJV)

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


That which Christ teaches here is inescapably presented as a future event. Note He states distinctly the Spirit of God is with them but will be in them, which I think distinguishes the difference between Old Testament ministry and that which will come when He returns to Heaven.

Another notable issue is that Christ states "I will come to you." An affirmation of Christ's Deity as well as foretelling that which He states here...


John 14:20-23

King James Version (KJV)

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


Again, the Old Testament Saint was not without what could be called an "indwelling," because the ministries of God are spiritual and it is without question that He ministered internally to the hearts of men, for this is how truth is revealed to men. But, we do not negate that which Christ teaches is yet future at the time of this teaching, nor overlook the distinctions made, which can be said to be distinct to the New Covenant Era about to be established through His death, burial, and resurrection, then further His Ascension and sending of the Comforter.


God bless.

 

No need to apologize, and I hope God prospers you in your work on the trip, granting you traveling mercies and protection from all that might stand in your way as you go about doing His work.


God bless.

 

I don't think John's argument was in reference to whether "again" or "from above" was in view, but whether there is a directive to Nicodemus that he (personally) had to be born again. Basically, it was being disputed as to whether Christ is giving this as a command or whether it is a general statement of truth.

In regards to a proper interpretation I take the view that while "Again" is in view, the primary intent of Christ is to stress that men must be born of God. This involves being born again but "from above" fits best in this context, in my view, particularly when correlated to being "born of the Spirit."

Where we do see regeneration referred to a being born again specifically, this is in a Post-Pentecost setting after the revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel. I would suggest that the Lord is not here commanding Nicodemus to be born again, nor view Nicodemus as being able to understand that in a Pre-Pentecost context of revelation. But, the understanding he was demanded of Christ as that which he should have held was that of being born of God, from above, of the Spirit. Nicodemus should have immediately called to mind the Promise of God that He would, when He restored Israel, place His Spirit with them, and cause them to walk in His statutes and keep His judgments (as contrasted with their sin which demanded the establishment of the New Covenant).

The Kingdom Nicodemus would have been aware of was that Kingdom promised by God, and found in Scripture. While we, in our Age, can understand the Kingdom of God in a Post Revelation context (meaning now that these mysteries have been revealed by the Spirit in the New Testament), Nicodemus could only be aware of what had been revealed to men in that day. And we know this, because we know the Lord expects Nicodemus to be aware of it, and He would not have expected or demanded that Nicodemus understand what had not already been revealed.

And we can see a reference to being born of God already mentioned by John when we arrive at Chapter 3:


John 1:10-13

King James Version (KJV)

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.



Now we ask what is meant by receiving Christ, and I would suggest that this can only refer to that time in which Christ manifested to the World. It is at this time that men being born of God begins. But, it will not be until the Mystery of the Gospel is fully revealed to men that our understanding of regeneration takes on that connotation of "again."

So I would disagree with the view that the Lord is commanding Nicodemus to do something that invariably requires one essential element: faith in Christ and His Work.

It was not possible for Nicodemus to place His faith in the Risen Savior, because Christ had not yet died and arisen. And Peter speaks of the New Birth and states the Resurrection is essential:


1 Peter 1:3

King James Version (KJV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,


He states we are born again by the Word...


1 Peter 1:23

King James Version (KJV)

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


James affirms this:


James 1:18

King James Version (KJV)

18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.


Now, what is the Word by which we are born again, except the Gospel.

And Nicodemus was not privy to this Mystery, so I suggest that Christ is speaking within a context that those of Israel would have understood. It would not be until Christ died, and even further, not until the Comforter came, that the disciples would have revealed to them the Mystery of the Gospel. At this time they would truly receive Christ, and be born again.


God bless.