Israel and the church are one and the same.

Darrell C said:

Hey, what a great idea. Always meant to get around to those chapters someday.

So tell me, have you been happy with the presuppositions of your newfound theology?

Have you yet been able to get to the point where you can show that Christ did not obtain eternal redemption for us, and redeem the transgressions of those under the Law through His Sacrifice yet?

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Wow that is a new one. Trying to pin me with the argument you were making and I was arguing against.

"Not one member of Israel was eternally redeemed and forgiven through the Blood of Christ."

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But I guess it is clear that you have moved beyond the above statment since its clear you want to argue against yourself there. So that is progress that you now acknowledge that the blood of Christ is what redeems us.

But you know what, even if you have, I will not enter into more squabbling with a woman. You can ask your husband to come on and explain how Old Testament Saints were forgiven their sins through animal sacrifice. I have no desire to argue with you.

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It would be very hard for my husband to explain something that neither one of us believe. Again I'm glad to see you have progressed from believing that the OT Saints were forgiven their sins through animal sacrifice. But in the future I would ask that you not try to put your arguments on to me. That is not good form. If you have changed your mind you should just acknowledge that you use to think one way and now you think another way. Like I have no problem admitting that I used to be a dispensationalist and now I'm not. I was raised as a non-cal and now I'm a cal. There is no shame in admitting that you were wrong in the past.

Another example of Israel and the Church being distinguished as separate entities:


Matthew 10:5-7

King James Version (KJV)

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.



Is Christ sending out the disciples to the Church?

But wait, He is ministering to those who are in state of destruction.

How then is this that spiritual Israel some view to be the Church of the Old Testament?


God bless.

Darrell C said:

Another reason why we cannot make Israel and the Church the same Body is that we would have to say that only those of Israel were "saved" prior to Pentecost.


Ephesians 2:12-15

King James Version (KJV)

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;


Now does Paul speak about the "Spiritual Israel" here? Is that what is in view?

Or National Israel?

The Spiritual Israel most try to correlate to an Old Testament Church did not exclude Gentiles, and this for one simple reason: many of the Household of Faith were not of Israel.

This would include Abel, Noah, Abraham, et cetera.


God bless.

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No takers?

Well, to keep this thread alive, lol, let's continue in this passage:


16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:


Now wait a minute, are we to believe that the members of the Body of Christ have not yet been reconciled?

That people can be members of the Body of Christ, yet still in need of Reconciliation?

Paul does say "both" here doesn't he?


God bless.