How To Be A Faithful & True Witness

Hark said:

But Jesus is God. Are you insinuating that we can make ourselves God as well by following His conduct? Jesus being God was and is how He is doing everything good because God is good.

Sinners are not good. There is nothing good in our sinful flesh, except when we get born again, and that is when we receive Christ Jesus by faith and then He is the only good that is in us that helps us to love others, even our enemies.



You can't be a christian unless you are saved by Jesus Christ first by believing in Him and that God raised Him from the dead.

Then the priority of a christian is to love others, and believe me, we even need His help to love others when they do bad things to us, and they are not stopping either.



You promote an impossibility. You promote putting the cart before the horse. Sinners do not have power to love the way Christ loves until they have Christ in them. Sinners cannot love God unless God had loved them first to help them believe in Him to be saved so he can love as God loves, and not the way the world loves.



Yes.. Christ says I can do it through Him in me.

So how is a sinner going to do it when Christ is not in Him yet?

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HARK............YOU'RE not even going to DO IT with that attitude.


Ask God to show you who are Pharisees, The new ones, The CHRISTIAN PHARISEES.



Matthew 23
1Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them. 4“They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger.

13“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

The Pharisees sit there and tell everyone how they are not qualified to do anything, and even though they themselves are qualified they don't even lift a finger. They tell everyone they can't make it to heaven, they don't even try themselves and whine and complain if they see anyone trying to.


Luke 11
11“Now suppose one of you fathers is asked by his son for a fish; he will not give him a snake instead of a fish, will he? 12“Or if he is asked for an egg, he will not give him a scorpion, will he? 13“If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?”

If God sees someone try for righteousness he doesn't just step on them. Who can ask for the holy spirit unless they don't have it?


Its no surprise the very next verses Pharisees attempt to pin Jesus good works as motivated by evil rather then "truly good from God"

Luke 11
14And He was casting out a demon, and it was mute; when the demon had gone out, the mute man spoke; and the crowds were amazed. 15But some of them said, “He casts out demons by Beelzebul, the ruler of the demons.” 16Others, to test Him, were demanding of Him a sign from heaven. 17But He knew their thoughts and said to them, “Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and a house divided against itself falls. 18“If Satan also is divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand? For you say that I cast out demons by Beelzebul.


In the same spirit of Jesus Christ. If you teach Atheists or Muslims to love their neighbors, kindness and love at WORST you have "Satan divided against himself" and “Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and a house divided against itself falls".

John 13
34“A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35“By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

^You don't get to declare yourself Christian. Its how I know you are and how I know you are not. You don't want to teach other to love one another? Well your not a disciple of Jesus.

You only want to teach the alphabet to folks who know all the letters. That's not teaching brother.

utilyan said:

HARK............YOU'RE not even going to DO IT with that attitude.

Ask God to show you who are Pharisees, The new ones, The CHRISTIAN PHARISEES.

Matthew 23
1Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them. 4“They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger.

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Believing that we are saved without works, because Jesus is our Savior? That's easy.

Believing Jesus as our Good Shepherd to help us to follow Him and enabling us to do good works? That's easy too.

His yoke is easy and His burden is light & I find rest for my soul..

13“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

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Sounds like catholicism and the commitment to follow Christ for the assurance of salvation to me.

The Pharisees sit there and tell everyone how they are not qualified to do anything, and even though they themselves are qualified they don't even lift a finger. They tell everyone they can't make it to heaven, they don't even try themselves and whine and complain if they see anyone trying to.

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Again, sounds like the official Catholic catechism to me.

Luke 11
11“Now suppose one of you fathers is asked by his son for a fish; he will not give him a snake instead of a fish, will he? 12“Or if he is asked for an egg, he will not give him a scorpion, will he? 13“If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?”

If God sees someone try for righteousness he doesn't just step on them. Who can ask for the holy spirit unless they don't have it?

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You receive Him by knocking at the door of Jesus.

Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Its no surprise the very next verses Pharisees attempt to pin Jesus good works as motivated by evil rather then "truly good from God"

Luke 11
14And He was casting out a demon, and it was mute; when the demon had gone out, the mute man spoke; and the crowds were amazed. 15But some of them said, “He casts out demons by Beelzebul, the ruler of the demons.” 16Others, to test Him, were demanding of Him a sign from heaven. 17But He knew their thoughts and said to them, “Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and a house divided against itself falls. 18“If Satan also is divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand? For you say that I cast out demons by Beelzebul.


In the same spirit of Jesus Christ. If you teach Atheists or Muslims to love their neighbors, kindness and love at WORST you have "Satan divided against himself" and “Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and a house divided against itself falls".

John 13
34“A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35“By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

^You don't get to declare yourself Christian. Its how I know you are and how I know you are not. You don't want to teach other to love one another? Well your not a disciple of Jesus.

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I'd say to sinners that if they have a hard time loving others, call on Jesus to save them first and He will be in them to help them love others.

Now fr saved believers, then I would say that they are to love others as Christ loved us, even our enemies, and they can lean on Jesus for help in loving their enemies.

You only want to teach the alphabet to folks who know all the letters. That's not teaching brother.

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Brother; when you come across a sinner that says he cannot love his enemies, don't expect him to be able to until you tell him the Good News.

Now if you come across a saved believer that is not loving others as he should, then you can minister to him, reminding him that if he does not love his brother, how can anyone believe he loves God?

We are to be a light unto the world, but Jesus has to be in us first to be that light unto the world as we can only follow Him by faith in Jesus Christ to help us to follow Him to be that light unto others.

Hark said:

I shall not tag you again, brother. I cannot say I am disappointed since another member with Rev in his nick name seems to pass on any discussion into the scripture as well, and has asked me not to tag him also.

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I am always willing, time permitting, to discuss the things of the Lord with anyone who would so desire. I reserve the right, however, to enter only into those discussions that I prefer to involve myself. Hence, the request to no longer tag me.

What I have seen from you, brother, is not a desire for discussion, but rather to force your position(s) on those who respond to your posts. You discount any Scripture offered with such rhetoric as "You didn't really [use Scripture] since you added to the scripture of what was written. If it was really okay, you would have a reference plainly teaching your p.o.v., but there isn't, and so you are left with reading your practice as you see it inbetween [sic] the lines."

You offered no explanation of your understanding of the passage; you simply condemned my use of the Scripture. You ask for a "reference plainly teaching [my] p.o.v." when you absolutely have none that "plainly teach" your point of view. That, my brother, is not discussing - that is arguing.

Hark said:

Now if you come across a saved believer that is not loving others as he should, then you can minister to him, reminding him that if he does not love his brother, how can anyone believe he loves God?

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Going back to the OP, I think a common misconception about witnessing and testimony is that there will always be a figure of absolute meekness and kind words. This is simply not the case when we consider the witness of God in Scripture. That doesn't mean I think we should go around always being blunt and rude, lol, but, sometimes a direct statement of truth is just not going to be received well.

In other words, I don't think it should be assumed that a failure to love a brother is the case because of an exchange in doctrinal discussion. I think most have a genuine concern for the lost, and it is just a general principle that siblings squabble, lol. It is usually true, "I can pick on my brother but you better not!"

So when we see someone we think is not loving his brother, we might look more closely at what is being said. Is it love to agree with those in error, or is true love and concern expressed when we try to bring our brother/s an understanding of what we see as error. Again, most of us will assume God has blessed us with the correct doctrine, and sent us out to straighten out the rest of the Body. The truth is, as a Body, by examining our differing views, sometimes we find a perspective we have not considered, and sometimes a brother can present a passage we have not previously considered in the context of a particular issue.

We know for certain that Paul loved Peter, yet did not hesitate to confront Peter concerning his hypocrisy. Had Paul ignored this, he would have been expressing the worst form of hatred, I believe.

All that to say we should keep in mind that love is not always found in the soft spoken word, and for hard heads like me the tough lessons usually sink in best.


God bless.

Pastor_Bob said:

I am always willing, time permitting, to discuss the things of the Lord with anyone who would so desire. I reserve the right, however, to enter only into those discussions that I prefer to involve myself. Hence, the request to no longer tag me.

What I have seen from you, brother, is not a desire for discussion, but rather to force your position(s) on those who respond to your posts. You discount any Scripture offered with such rhetoric as "You didn't really [use Scripture] since you added to the scripture of what was written. If it was really okay, you would have a reference plainly teaching your p.o.v., but there isn't, and so you are left with reading your practice as you see it inbetween [sic] the lines."

You offered no explanation of your understanding of the passage; you simply condemned my use of the Scripture. You ask for a "reference plainly teaching [my] p.o.v." when you absolutely have none that "plainly teach" your point of view. That, my brother, is not discussing - that is arguing.

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Can you not flip the conversation by telling me how those references I had used, do not apply, thereby showing how your application of your scriptural reference stand?

The point is that scripture cannot go against scripture, and so that is why I still had contentions.

It just seems like the references I have cited cannot allow for any application going beyond what was written of what you had cited.

So it is not my unwillingness to learn, but addressing how scripture cannot go against scripture for what you are inferring as being okay.

Can we help God keep His promise? No. Because He does not need any help.

Will God help us keep our promises? No. Because those are our promises telling God and people that we are going to do it. The credit for keeping a promise in according to His words; goes to the promise maker.

The same goes to making a commitment to follow Christ. Masons sees commitments like a promise, and either way, God cannot help keep a believer's commitment when that believer is voiding faith in God keeping His commitment to us that He will help us to follow Him.

It is either faith in Him as our Good Shepherd and all His promises to us or faith in a believer's ability to keep a commitment is the power for following Jesus.

I rely on Him all the time therefore I speak of my faith in Him for following Him and not of my commitment which only speaks of me.

I can run down the scriptures again, but only if you are willing to address that part of the discussion in showing me how that does not apply or does not run contrary to how you were applying your scriptural reference.

That is really where the impasse is at. You cited your application of your scriptural reference going above what was written where my scriptural references plainly does not allow for you to do that.

Numbers 30:2 Ecclesiastes 5:4-6 Matthew 5:36 all testify that a man's vow, promise, commitment, is his work; not God's. To avoid taking on God's work is to trust Him that the New Covenant is not lacking anything from us that it needs a promise or a commitment from us to "make" us religiously follow Him since we can only follow Him by faith in Jesus Christ. Galatians 5:1 of the KJV speaks of a liberty from bondage and Galatians 5:5 shows how the fruits of righteousness will come by faith in Jesus Christ ( Philippians 1:6 & Philippians 1:11 )

Can you claim Galatians 5:1 as part of your testimony when you speak of your commitment to follow Jesus?

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Can you claim you hope in Jesus to do His work in you & through you?

Galatians 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

By faith in Jesus; not by keeping our commitment. I trust Jesus as my Good Shepherd to help me follow Him.

John 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. 24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, 25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

Do you really think Jesus had any confidence in men to ask them to make a commitment or a vow to follow Him?

Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

That is why I read that denying yourself part as including denying anything from us as being able to follow Him, and picking up His cross is dying to self ( you can't make commitments if you are dead ) and following Him is trusting Him to help you to follow Him.

That is why I believe it is simply written; that the just shall live by faith.

Today's evangelists has added to His words by saying "The just shall live by faith AND by their commitment to follow Christ", as if faith in Him is not enough for following Him.

See my concern now? Hebrews 11:6

Darrell C said:

Going back to the OP, I think a common misconception about witnessing and testimony is that there will always be a figure of absolute meekness and kind words. This is simply not the case when we consider the witness of God in Scripture. That doesn't mean I think we should go around always being blunt and rude, lol, but, sometimes a direct statement of truth is just not going to be received well.

In other words, I don't think it should be assumed that a failure to love a brother is the case because of an exchange in doctrinal discussion. I think most have a genuine concern for the lost, and it is just a general principle that siblings squabble, lol. It is usually true, "I can pick on my brother but you better not!"

So when we see someone we think is not loving his brother, we might look more closely at what is being said. Is it love to agree with those in error, or is true love and concern expressed when we try to bring our brother/s an understanding of what we see as error. Again, most of us will assume God has blessed us with the correct doctrine, and sent us out to straighten out the rest of the Body. The truth is, as a Body, by examining our differing views, sometimes we find a perspective we have not considered, and sometimes a brother can present a passage we have not previously considered in the context of a particular issue.

We know for certain that Paul loved Peter, yet did not hesitate to confront Peter concerning his hypocrisy. Had Paul ignored this, he would have been expressing the worst form of hatred, I believe.

All that to say we should keep in mind that love is not always found in the soft spoken word, and for hard heads like me the tough lessons usually sink in best.

God bless.

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Well, a harsh rebuke can be given, but I think it is within the church, when the brother continues to refuse to repent after correction has been given to him in Christ's love after two or three witnesses.

He is still a brother but to be excommunicated when he still refuses to even repent after that, but that harsh rebuke can be given where excommunication is done in the hopes he will repent.

Matthew 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. 12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. 15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

1 Timothy 5:1 Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren;...20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

Titus 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

Titus 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. 10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; 11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

So there can be times when harshness is required, but that is still love shown towards a brother in seeking his good standing with the Lord.

This is a forum, and I doubt that can be applied here. Maybe the mods can do that, but I just don't see how any rebuke from me will matter unless I had the ability to ban as in excommunicate till the brother repents. And all the mods & admins have to be in agreement if they do banning like that in hoping to lead a brother to repentance.

Hark said:

This is a forum, and I doubt that can be applied here. Maybe the mods can do that, but I just don't see how any rebuke from me will matter unless I had the ability to ban as in excommunicate till the brother repents. And all the mods & admins have to be in agreement if they do banning like that in hoping to lead a brother to repentance.

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Trust me, it has to be some pretty blatant behavior for a banning to take place here, lol.

It is probably not a good idea to view banning from a forum on a par with excommunication from a fellowship. In my experience, those who are banned are usually regularly banned from every forum they visit, and some of them view this as a notch on the belt, so to speak, and see it as justifying their "unique" gospel or message. They are implacable, with no interest in anything but teaching their views. It could be likened to how some see going to prison as an accomplishment in their culture. So I don't think we are ever going to see a banning create the same results excommunication does. And reading a thread recently, or perhaps it was a radio sermon, someone mentioned the fact that those who refuse to repent can go down the street to another fellowship and be welcomed with open arms (now that I think of it I am pretty sure it was a thread this was being discussed in).

Only when someone has a dedicated relationship with a community of believers does excommunication produce the desired result of repentance (in my view). It has to be a matter of actually caring what other people think. It's kind of like abortion in some respects: use to be a pregnancy out of wedlock was something that carried with it shame. These days, no-one even questions whether this is right or wrong, and it has to be debated whether murdering an unborn child is wrong or not.

This is why, as I have said before, having a home church helps us in our walk with Christ. We know we are going to have some issues, but, there is an accountability that arises which we cannot experience when we go it alone.

On a forum such as this, after becoming an accepted part of the community it might mean more, but, for those who are not "regular" members getting banned is sometimes viewed by some as a badge of honor. They pat themselves on the back for being that "voice in the wilderness," except they are not in John the Baptist's wilderness, they are in another, lol.

I guess for me, when it comes to visiting forums, I separate these interactions with those that take place in the real world. While I always try to speak to people the same way I do when I am face to face, there is still an anonymity that caters to speaking in a manner we might not if face to face with someone. And as long as we keep that in mind, and consider it a goal to maintain a consistency in our witness, I think that will eventually become common practice. It is a careful balance for us between doctrine and practice. We have to work on both, and both are equally important. We fail sometimes, and sometimes we don't, but that's the nature of this type of setting. And sometimes it becomes a matter of chomping down. Sometimes that is the only way to get someone's attention. Doesn't mean you don't love them all the same.


God bless.

Darrell C said:

Trust me, it has to be some pretty blatant behavior for a banning to take place here, lol.

It is probably not a good idea to view banning from a forum on a par with excommunication from a fellowship. In my experience, those who are banned are usually regularly banned from every forum they visit, and some of them view this as a notch on the belt, so to speak, and see it as justifying their "unique" gospel or message. They are implacable, with no interest in anything but teaching their views. It could be likened to how some see going to prison as an accomplishment in their culture. So I don't think we are ever going to see a banning create the same results excommunication does. And reading a thread recently, or perhaps it was a radio sermon, someone mentioned the fact that those who refuse to repent can go down the street to another fellowship and be welcomed with open arms (now that I think of it I am pretty sure it was a thread this was being discussed in).

Only when someone has a dedicated relationship with a community of believers does excommunication produce the desired result of repentance (in my view). It has to be a matter of actually caring what other people think. It's kind of like abortion in some respects: use to be a pregnancy out of wedlock was something that carried with it shame. These days, no-one even questions whether this is right or wrong, and it has to be debated whether murdering an unborn child is wrong or not.

This is why, as I have said before, having a home church helps us in our walk with Christ. We know we are going to have some issues, but, there is an accountability that arises which we cannot experience when we go it alone.

On a forum such as this, after becoming an accepted part of the community it might mean more, but, for those who are not "regular" members getting banned is sometimes viewed by some as a badge of honor. They pat themselves on the back for being that "voice in the wilderness," except they are not in John the Baptist's wilderness, they are in another, lol.

I guess for me, when it comes to visiting forums, I separate these interactions with those that take place in the real world. While I always try to speak to people the same way I do when I am face to face, there is still an anonymity that caters to speaking in a manner we might not if face to face with someone. And as long as we keep that in mind, and consider it a goal to maintain a consistency in our witness, I think that will eventually become common practice. It is a careful balance for us between doctrine and practice. We have to work on both, and both are equally important. We fail sometimes, and sometimes we don't, but that's the nature of this type of setting. And sometimes it becomes a matter of chomping down. Sometimes that is the only way to get someone's attention. Doesn't mean you don't love them all the same.

God bless.

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Thanks for sharing.